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Trales

Hunter stat priority and stat values

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Hello!

 

I've come across a few different, and in my opinion incorrect info about (pre Raid) BiS gearing so i'd like to hear some more opinions about the matter.
While values of stats should be based on your current stats, there should be generalized rules when it comes to comparing 2 pieces of equipment for their stats, that shouldn't be too off their real value.

 

For the sake of this we assume that we are hitcapped, since i don't want to go too deep into the matter and we also assume we have a pretty common MM specc with 20/31/0, but i guess even small deviations shouldn't make too much of a difference unless we specc into the agility talent. Also for the sake of it we're talking about horde, who don't have access to any skills like BoK, which increase your stats by a certain percentage.

 

The relevant stats here are agi, ap(or RAP) and crit, we don't want to deal with hit, int, or any kind of other stat/setbonus. If im not completly mistaken the value of a point in crit in AP will increase with better gear/tiers, so 1% crit with BWL gear should be equal to a bit more AP than 1% crit with MC/pre raid BiS gear.

 

Since Elysium isn't even on 1.4 Patch yet, im especially interested in the values for the limited pre raid BiS(since there's a lot of items in dungeons that are not in that patch yet) and t1 items.

 

So how much AP would 1% crit be, and how much AP is 1 point in agi(since agi does not only provide 2 RAP but also crit, it should be 2.x)

I've tried reading that up a bit, testing it and try it with my own calculations and i've come to the conclusion that 1% Crit ~ 30 AP, and 1 Agi ~ 2,2 AP, but i'd like to hear your opinion on the matter.

One thing that's really bugging me is the pre raid BiS helmets. While i fully understand that the Mask of the Unforgiven is the best choice with 2% hit and 1% crit, i can't understand why Eye of Rend with its 2% crit is supposed to be better than the Crown of Tyranny witih 1% crit and 40 AP. While there isn't too much crit on pre raid BiS i simply can't accept that 1% crit would be more damage than 40 AP.

 

Would really appreciate your input on this subject, maybe you also have a pocket rule of thumb when it comes to calculating what gear is better for you.

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This is what I came up with on a similar thread, but it's not totally accurate. It doesn't consider the scaling nature of stats for hunters, and only provides a very rough understating of their values.

Ignoring all other stats, this is how much DPS each stat would give you:

On 12/30/2016 at 8:37 AM, Fisher said:

1 Agility = 1.5 Stamina = 3 Intellect = 4 Attack Power = 0.038% Crit Chance = 0.28 DPS

Obviously Stamina and Intellect don't actually give you DPS, but they're still important for a raider, if only a little.

Judging by this, 1% crit is actually way more than 40 Attack Power. Take this with a grain of salt.

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16 hours ago, Fisher said:

1 Agility = 1.5 Stamina = 3 Intellect = 4 Attack Power = 0.038% Crit Chance = 0.28 DPS

Judging by this, 1% crit is actually way more than 40 Attack Power. Take this with a grain of salt.

What.

 

For an MM spec hunter with 400 agi, 6% crit, 7% hit and regular buffs (no Hunter's Mark):

1 Hit = 20.98 AP

1 Crit = 27.27 AP

1 Agi = 2.52 AP with no Kings, 2.77 AP with Kings, 2.92 with Zandalar, 3.23 with Kings and Zandalar

Based on actual math.

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12 hours ago, Guybrush said:

Based on actual math.

Based on what math? If you do the math, the amount of DPS a single point of agility gives you is roughly 4x the amount of DPS a single point of RAP will give you. It is misleading to say 1 agility = 2.52 AP, because while that is technically true, it doesn't account for the crit chance you get with agility.

I already explained this on another thread a couple months ago.

On 12/30/2016 at 8:37 AM, Fisher said:

53 Agility = 1% Crit Chance
1 Agility = 2 Ranged Attack Power
14 Ranged Attack Power = 1 DPS

On 12/30/2016 at 8:37 AM, Fisher said:

That information leads me to this: 53 Agility = 106 Ranged Attack Power = 1% Crit = 7.51 DPS, however, I don't believe that is correct.

53 Agility is 106 Ranged Attack Power and 1% Crit, so 1% Crit can't be worth the same as 53 Agility. However, 1% Crit could be equal to 106 Ranged Attack Power and consequently equal to 7.51 DPS, correct?

If Agility gives both Ranged Attack Power and Crit, then Agility's DPS value is basically double that of the two stats alone, so 53 Agility = 15.02 DPS, yes? Which means 1 point of Agility is roughly 0.28 DPS.

So if I take the formula and simply double everything except Agility, the formula looks like this:
53 Agility = 212 Ranged Attack Power = 2% Crit = 15.02 DPS
1 Agility = 4 Attack Power = 0.038% Crit Chance = 0.28 DPS

Granted, the formula doesn't account for talents or other buffs, which is why I said it was it wasn't totally accurate. Not to mention, the more RAP you have, the more DPS crit is going to give you, and the more crit you have, the less DPS crit is going to give you. It's never as easy as saying "the stat is always worth this much," because of the way the stats interact with one another.

However, if you want the bare bones essential understanding of their value, what I provided was it, not yours. RAP is not a calculation of the stat's worth in terms of DPS. Yes, 1 agility gives 2.52 RAP, but 1 agility gives more DPS than 2.52 RAP. 

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Each % crit gives you about 1% increase in average dps.  Yes, Mortal Shots gives a bonus that makes Crit better at lower percentages, but around the time you hit 20% crit (buffed since we're talking raids), which is pretty easy to accomplish, it works out to about 1% once diminishing returns are factored in.

You need AP for the crits to be worth anything.  So calculate what your ranged weapon's "AP equivalent" is and add it to your AP total (buffed, and include Hunter's Mark).  Let's say you have the Dwarven Hand Cannon which deals 66-124 damage at 2.90 speed.  Average damage is 95 per shot.  Your DPS increases by 1 for every 14 attack power, so let's work this backward...   95 / 2.90 = 32.759 dps.  Let's say you're using Jagged Arrows, which is another 13dps for roughly 46 total * 14 ap per dps = 644 equivalent attack power.  Let's say that when raid buffed you have about 1300 normal AP (random number on my end, please apply your own results).  Total "attack power" including your weapon is about 1944, so a 1% increase would be 19.4 attack power.  1 attack power = 0.051% dps in this example.

52 agility is 1% crit and 104 attack power, which using the above example would be about 6.36% increase in dps for both the crit and ap components.  So 1 agility would be about 0.122% increase in dps.

So according to my approximations 1% crit = 19.4ap = 8.2 agility.  These values need to be adjusted for your own weapons and ap totals.

This is purely a rough approximation on my part, but it is my belief that in the early stages of the game, attack power generally trumps crit rate.  If your buffed crit rate is below 20%, then crit is worth a bit more but never really more than 1.2% each.  You won't be able to get REAL numbers without doing extensive calculations including shot rotations, talents, etc.  And of course, the values change as your gear changes....the more ap you get, the more crit is worth and vice versa.  In my opinion, the crown of tyranny > eye of rend.  I think people get too caught up with the idea of big crits and forget that increasing non-crit damage is a valid and less spiky way of increasing your dps.

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1 hour ago, Drakbak said:

So 1 agility would be about 0.122% increase in dps.

It's interesting you calculate the percentage increase in DPS instead of the raw DPS it will give you. When you try to calculate the percentage of DPS a point of RAP gives you, you're going to be very frustrated, because literally every point of RAP will change the value of each successive point of RAP.

However, when you calculate the raw DPS value of RAP, Agility, and the equivalent DPS value of crit (ignoring its percentage increase), the value remains the same. 14.28 RAP will always net you 1 DPS. 

1 hour ago, Drakbak said:

I think people get too caught up with the idea of big crits and forget that increasing non-crit damage is a valid and less spiky way of increasing your dps.

This is true, but the potential is less when you value AP more heavily than crit. With higher values of crit, you have a wider range of possible DPS. You might crit more often, resulting in a much greater DPS than if you had stacked AP. With AP, your damage will be more consistent, but not necessarily better.

With crit, your DPS will have lower lows and higher highs. With AP, your DPS will have higher lows and lower highs.

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1 minute ago, Fisher said:

It's interesting you calculate the percentage increase in DPS instead of the raw DPS it will give you. When you try to calculate the percentage of DPS a point of RAP gives you, you're going to be very frustrated, because literally every point of RAP will change the value of each successive point of RAP.

However, when you calculate the raw DPS value of RAP, Agility, and the equivalent DPS value of crit (ignoring its percentage increase), the value remains the same. 14.28 RAP will always net you 1 DPS. 

I like to approximate based on % because the relationship between AP and Crit is dynamic.  you argue that each successive RAP will impact each other...ya...but so will each pt of RAP impact each point of crit.  The entire thing is dynamic, so I use this as an approximation.  But you also have to consider that when you upgrade a piece of armor, you generally aren't doing it 1 RAP at a time, it's usually as a chunk.  In the case of the OP, he's trying to compare 1% crit and 40 ap vs 2% crit.

 

9 minutes ago, Fisher said:

This is true, but the potential is less when you value AP more heavily than crit. With higher values of crit, you have a wider range of possible DPS. You might crit more often, resulting in a much greater DPS than if you had stacked AP. With AP, your damage will be more consistent, but not necessarily better.

With crit, your DPS will have lower lows and higher highs. With AP, your DPS will have higher lows and lower highs.

I focus on AVERAGE dps.  Letting the potential for crit streaks guide your gear decisions is a poor way of gearing your character for overall performance.  Yes, you may get big numbers on one boss, but you will more than likely suck it up on the rest as your crit rate normalizes.  I prefer consistency over streaky dps.  Having high critting/streaky dps is really only beneficial for PvP where stringing together 2 or 3 crits will likely kill your opponent.

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wth are you guys on theres no need to make so much shit up, we know the exact formulas.

Here's my sheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AixPB-w4pHDXTAWCsdzyKn9eSRMYx2kh43nPPNHg_bw/edit#gid=1334959521

You can make a copy and change the setup for your own gear / talents / buffs.

The math is all on the second page, let me know if you find any mistake.

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22 hours ago, Guybrush said:

wth are you guys on theres no need to make so much shit up, we know the exact formulas.

Obviously we know the formulas, but knowing the exact formulas and being able to apply them accurately are two different things.  Also, there are plenty of situations where it's useful to be able to "eyeball" the stats and have a pretty good idea if it's an upgrade or not (certainly in the 2min I spent typing it up during lunch).  All your sheet is doing is a much more detailed approximation

1) One major correction would be to use the normalized calculations for Aimed and Multi-Shot.  You calculate the damage gained from AP based on the weapon's speed, but these abilities were normalized to always use 2.8 as the speed.

2) Additionally, your calculation assumes a very generic rotation of Auto -> Aimed -> Auto -> Multi -> Auto, which is an 8.94s rotation (based on the example weapon - the rotation calc does not consider custom weapon's needs), over-estimating the damage provided from multi-shot by 11.8% (not considering the missed multi-shots when the CD coincides with Aimed Shot)

3) You're missing Tier 1 8-pc bonus, as well as T2 3-pc and 8-pc bonuses.  Missing Grilled squid, juju might, Grace of Air totem for horde, feral crit buff, furious howl, pvp gloves bonus to multi-shot, gift of arthas debuff, and all armor reduction debuffs.  Nor do you include any analysis for rapid fire, quick shots, troll berserking, or devilsaur eye.

-----

I don't point this stuff out to be an ass or to tear you down.  I think you did a fine job, and there's improvements that can be made.  The point is that even in knowing the exact calculations, any attempt to derive an increase in dps involves creating a model.  And a model is only an approximation of actual results.  When I correct for the aimed shot and multi-shot normalization, here's what I get for 1300 ap and 20% crit on a DHC, per my example above:   1% crit = 27.78 ap.  It's certainly a more accurate representation compared to my "eyeball test", but I think I accomplished the goal of determining the Crown of Tyranny to be better than the Eye of Rend.

 

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14 hours ago, Drakbak said:

Obviously we know the formulas, but knowing the exact formulas and being able to apply them accurately are two different things.  Also, there are plenty of situations where it's useful to be able to "eyeball" the stats and have a pretty good idea if it's an upgrade or not (certainly in the 2min I spent typing it up during lunch).  All your sheet is doing is a much more detailed approximation

I was mainly talking to the guy that thinks 106 Ranged Attack Power = 1% Crit.

14 hours ago, Drakbak said:

1) One major correction would be to use the normalized calculations for Aimed and Multi-Shot.  You calculate the damage gained from AP based on the weapon's speed, but these abilities were normalized to always use 2.8 as the speed.

Nice find thanks.

14 hours ago, Drakbak said:

2) Additionally, your calculation assumes a very generic rotation of Auto -> Aimed -> Auto -> Multi -> Auto, which is an 8.94s rotation (based on the example weapon - the rotation calc does not consider custom weapon's needs), over-estimating the damage provided from multi-shot by 11.8% (not considering the missed multi-shots when the CD coincides with Aimed Shot)

3) You're missing Tier 1 8-pc bonus, as well as T2 3-pc and 8-pc bonuses.  Missing Grilled squid, juju might, Grace of Air totem for horde, feral crit buff, furious howl, pvp gloves bonus to multi-shot, gift of arthas debuff, and all armor reduction debuffs.  Nor do you include any analysis for rapid fire, quick shots, troll berserking, or devilsaur eye.

I am aware of this, I plan to add everything to the sheet someday as well as pet damage. But I dont think proper rotations and attack speed variations will have that much an effect on stat weights, for demonstration purposes this is enough.

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3 hours ago, Guybrush said:

I am aware of this, I plan to add everything to the sheet someday as well as pet damage. But I dont think proper rotations and attack speed variations will have that much an effect on stat weights, for demonstration purposes this is enough.

I think the rotations will have more of an impact on items and talents that affect multi-shot.  However, I agree for stat weights, it probably doesn't have an impact.

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10 hours ago, Guybrush said:

I was mainly talking to the guy that thinks 106 Ranged Attack Power = 1% Crit.

Having played around with your spreadsheet (and making a few of my own with some research into how damage is calculated for hunters), I'll admit I was way off. I was basically equating them the entirely wrong way. In any case, thanks for the useful spreadsheet. I've been messing with it (adding AEP, DPS value and %DPS value for each stat) for a while now. Also went ahead and made the talent choices a drop down selection so you can easily choose the ranks of the talents.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1zSMYP1BU8CrqWwyRfNsJNI8vN2g4u7v8zvJW0X6pQwg/edit#gid=915078907

This is what I've come up with thus far. Does it seem at all accurate? 

Secondly, I have a couple questions:

  • In the Attack Power calculation on the Main sheet, I noticed there is an innate +110 Attack Power. What is that?
  • Arrow DPS is set to 17 on your spreadsheet. There's ammo for 17.5 DPS and 16.5 DPS, but no 17 DPS. Is this a mistake on your part, or on the database I use's part?
Edited by Fisher

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34 minutes ago, Fisher said:

Secondly, I have a couple questions:

  • In the Attack Power calculation on the Main sheet, I noticed there is an innate +110 Attack Power. What is that?
  • Arrow DPS is set to 17 on your spreadsheet. There's ammo for 17.5 DPS and 16.5 DPS, but no 17 DPS. Is this a mistake on your part, or on the database I use's part?

Its the base attack power at level 60.

Arrow damage used to be bugged and rounded down, it still is on most servers but Elysium has it fixed. 17.5 is correct.

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8 hours ago, Guybrush said:

Its the base attack power at level 60.

Ah, duh. Makes sense. Thanks.

8 hours ago, Guybrush said:

Arrow damage used to be bugged and rounded down, it still is on most servers but Elysium has it fixed. 17.5 is correct.

/cheer

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i did calculations for full T1 + Rhok + regular raid buffs (mongoose, squid, juju might, motw) and ended up with 1% crit = 31 RAP

and for full T2 + Ash + regualr raid buffs, assuming nearly 100% exposed weakness uptime 1% crit = 38 RAP

so OP's value for pre-raid BiS seems correct to me

in short ive calculated the whole cycle damage using stat values from items indicated and after that equated crit needed to get 1% dmg increase to RAP needed to get 1% dmg increse. ive used normalized fomulaes for aimed and multi as well as actual cycles for those weapons with Lactose-inspired treatment of multishot coefficients. ive assumed 17/31/3 for t1 calculations with 3/3 slaying accounted for (cause thats the situation for me in BWL atm) and 20/31/0 for t2 calculations cause they were aimed for future AQ progression. set bonuses and talent bonuses were accounted for. only those buffs listed were accounted for cause those are the buffs you reliably get during progression - dudu crit is an option from time to time, agi totem is never an option in BWL.

I'd like to point out that RAP influences only about 1/3 of hunter damage - other damage comes from weapons DPS + projectile DPS + bonus dmg from aimed/multi, that's why RAP is so not worth it, as well as agility if we look at the items avialiable (for example, "hunter" ring circle of applied force is worse for hunters than "melee" ring quickstrike ring).

Also i'd like to point out that armor reduction value doesn't impact any on these types of calculations cause it affects all of your shots in the same way, so if you are interested in the relative effects you don't care about the armor value cause it reaches steady-state values like 10 seconds into the fight ^^ (excluding special cases of armor-ignoring trinkets etc). accounting for quick shots' proc and rapid fire makes all the stuff much harder, but qualitative conclusions are easy - both these buff increase RAP value relative to the crit value because you do more autos per cycle hence reducing the effect of heavy-influencing bonus damage of aimed+multi. but since those buffs have very low uptime its understandable not to bother about them.

P.S. That mistake with 106 RAP = 1 crit comes from the assumption that agility stats' relation lead you to some sort of equation regarding your damage output. Well it doesn't ^^ - completly unrelated things.

Edited by Pwnjin

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