Inflation

[Undertanker 88]

13 minutes ago, Hellomane said:

you're using bogus numbers to back it up.

Yeah okay.

[Justme 9]

Our damage is already higher because we can actually look up stuff and dont suffer from fps penalties.

Therefore they should nerf our dmg by 20% so our dps is more blizzlike

Aslong as raids that as long as they did back then it's all good (no 50min MC in prebis bullshit)

[Hellomane 0]

17 minutes ago, Undertanker said:

Yeah okay.

Nice response bro! You're sitting here arguing for making things easier for noobs on a vanilla server, which is hilarious in itself. As others have mentioned, it's not a human right to flask every week with minimal effort for content they can clear without. QOL stuff like this is the same line of thinking that ultimately resulted in retail, and should be avoided at almost all cost. At the very least, they could have tried out a 25-30% increase and not just bomb it with a 300% increase, which is what it seems they have done.

[Undertanker 88]

Nobody is saying flask in MC/BWL. (you may want to flask your Nef/Chromag tank during progression)

Players are prepping for AQ and eventually naxx.

I've already giving detailed numbers on the time investment outside of raiding to cover in time raiding cost for AQ + Naxx each week for 6 months in another thread.  Go read it, as I see you are new here.

I'll give you the short on it though, before the change and with current herb prices:

You would need to prefarm 25,000 gold to cover your flask + normal consumables to raid those two instances each week on same reset for 6 months.

If you didn't have your gold pre-farmed, or ran out, it was the equivalent of farming 37.5 hours a week to meet the gold needs. Close to 4 hours of farming for every 1 hour of raiding.    Compared to 2005/06 during patch 1.12.1 taking the mean prices of full status servers back then, average farm to raid AQ/Naxx was around 1 hour of farming for 2 hours of raiding.   Essentially 50-60g an hour would cover your flask and 2 of each 1 hour consumable you used.

16 hours of farming to cover a 4 hour Naxx night is NOT REMOTELY HOW IT WAS.

That 37+ hours of week of straight farming is assuming no down time for travel to farm locations or working the auction house to get your return.   Also doesn't factor in raiding time and doesn't allow for any time to PVP or run 5 mans.

[Hellomane 0]

5 minutes ago, Undertanker said:

Nobody is saying flask in MC/BWL. (you may want to flask your Nef/Chromag tank during progression)

Players are prepping for AQ and eventually naxx.

I've already giving detailed numbers on the time investment outside of raiding to cover in time raiding cost for AQ + Naxx each week for 6 months in another thread.  Go read it, as I see you are new here.

I'll give you the short on it though, before the change and with current herb prices:

You would need to prefarm 25,000 gold to cover your flask + normal consumables to raid those two instances each week on same reset for 6 months.

If you didn't have your gold pre-farmed, or ran out, it was the equivalent of farming 37.5 hours a week to meet the gold needs. Close to 4 hours of farming for every 1 hour of raiding.    Compared to 2005/06 during patch 1.12.1 taking the mean prices of full status servers back then, average farm to raid AQ/Naxx was around 1 hour of farming for 2 hours of raiding.   Essentially 50-60g an hour would cover your flask and 2 of each 1 hour consumable you used.

16 hours of farming to cover a 4 hour Naxx night is NOT REMOTELY HOW IT WAS.

People are also way more knowledgeable now (12 year old game), and we will be progressing through AQ with 1.12 talents. If you aren't willing to put in the work to pay, then simply don't flask, it's optional. If you have tried farming after the change, how can you honestly say this spawn rate is fine?

[Undertanker 88]

I gotta flask.   Comes with the territory of tanking.   Twin Emps w/o flasking you are literally messing with RNGesus in a bad way as a tank if you lost your world buffs or they expired.

Unbalancing Strike Massive melee attack dealing between 4000 and 8000 damage.
Uppercut: Does a knockback a target doing 2000-3500 damage.

Both of which can follow a succession of Auto Attack.

This kinda shit becomes the norm in Naxx.

[Hellomane 0]

2 minutes ago, Undertanker said:

I gotta flask.   Comes with the territory of tanking.   Twin Emps w/o flasking you are literally messing with RNGesus in a bad way as a tank if you lost your world buffs or they expired.

Unbalancing Strike Massive melee attack dealing between 4000 and 8000 damage.
Uppercut: Does a knockback a target doing 2000-3500 damage.

Both of which can follow a succession of Auto Attack.

This kinda shit becomes the norm in Naxx.

You as an MT allegedly having to flask is not an argument for a change that aims to make it effortless for everyone in the raid to flask. You could get some help from gbank to flask yourself up and be fine with the higher prices. Also, you never answered my question as to how you can defend these ridiculous new spawn rates if you've seen the extent of them.

[Undertanker 88]

13 minutes ago, Hellomane said:

 Also, you never answered my question as to how you can defend these ridiculous new spawn rates if you've seen the extent of them.

Because this has been answered in 5 other threads, but sure:

Vanilla, a most full status realms had at BEST 3-5 guilds per faction clear BWL +.  Half of which stepped foot into Naxx to even attempt Spider Wing, some of which got that wing down and some got far.

Not talking flask for a second, 10 raiding guilds clearing BWL on a server.   Anathema has 111 guilds clearing BWL since Relaunch.  11x the amount of active successful raiding guilds than a realm that had a decent number of good raiding guilds by 2005 standards.  

Lets double the number, saying 20 guilds per server could do BWL, which they couldn't.   Much less AQ and Naxx.    This is still 5.5x the amount of teams raiding on a regular basis.  Lets say only half the people use any consumables at all.  

Your idea of testing the waters with a 130% rate does nothing for the mess we were in before this.  Nost themselves had Black Lotus at an 8x respawn rate as they were set to respawn every 15 minutes compared to every 2 hours.  This is not a new concept the Elysium team just threw out there.

 

Edit:

I'm not saying there shouldn't be grinding for gold in the game, just the GP/H vs return was too lopsided.   Balancing it out will also see these battleground liven up and more people running some 5 mans and holding down some world pvp, since the feeling of I HAVE TO FARM EVERY SECOND TO COVER MY ASS IN THE FUTURE won't be as harsh.

I'd love to tank some of these pugs that spam LF Tank for 30 minutes, and helping undergeared people, but when it means I'm short on reaching this 25,000g deadline then I'll just stick to my area and watch them suffer.  Charging 20g for an instance run doesn't cut it with these prices. I'll stick to my spots.

[Hellomane 0]

2 minutes ago, Undertanker said:

Because this has been answered in 5 other threads, but sure:

Vanilla, a most full status realms had at BEST 3-5 guilds per faction clear BWL +.  Half of which stepped foot into Naxx to even attempt Spider Wing, some of which got that wing down and some got far.

Not talking flask for a second, 10 raiding guilds clearing BWL on a server.   Anathema has 111 guilds clearing BWL since Relaunch.  11x the amount of active successful raiding guilds than a realm that had a decent number of good raiding guilds by 2005 standards.

Lets double the number, saying 20 guilds per server could do BWL, which they couldn't.   Much less AQ and Naxx.    This is still 5.5x the amount of teams raiding on a regular basis.  

Your idea of testing the waters with a 130% rate does nothing for the mess we were in before this.  Nost themselves had Black Lotus at an 8x respawn rate as they were set to respawn every 15 minutes compared to every 2 hours.  This is not a new concept the Elysium team just threw out there.

 

Black Lotus spawn was 1 hour on retail, not 2. So that would make Nost's rate a 4x in your case - but only when pop was very high. Now you have essentially the dynamic respawn rate of 10k pop, but with a 2-3k pop. You think it's fine to get 5 stacks of dreamfoil in an hour? I don't care if more people are raiding, they still aren't forced or entitled to chug down every high level consumable with zero effort.

[Undertanker 88]

8 minutes ago, Hellomane said:

but only when pop was very high

So always.  :)

Thanks for correction on BL retail rate though.  So yeah 4x, but even then it wasn't enough.

100 an hour seems like a lot, yeah sure but I'd need to see proof that is what you are getting.   If it is accurate, that should bring stacks down to around 13g a stack (based off of a 65gp/h income).

If Lotus went to 30g a pop, then this would put Flask around 55g give or take, making it much more in the price range of full servers during 1.12.1 (when they were used most).

Others pointed out on smaller servers flask being in the 22-28g range, but I'm taking examples from full servers including mine.  Warsong - NA.  Which other players have confirmed I"m not talking out my ass when it comes to those rates including AQ/Naxx raiders from <Corp Hur>.

[Hellomane 0]

Just now, Undertanker said:

So aways.  

Thanks for correction on BL retail rate though.  So yeah 4x, but even then it wasn't enough.

100 an hour seems like a lot, yeah sure but I'd need to see proof that is what you are getting.   If it is accurate, that should bring stacks down to around 13g a stack (based off of a 65gp/h income).

If Lotus went to 30g a pop, then this would put Flask around 55g give or take, making it much more in the price range of full servers during 1.12.1 (when they were used most).

Others pointed out on smaller servers flask being in the 22-28g range, but I'm taking examples from full servers including mine.  Warsong - NA.  Which other players have confirmed I"m not talking out my ass when it comes to those rates including AQ/Naxx raiders from <Corp Hur>.

You simply can't compare gold on retail vanilla vs here 1:1 like that. People sucked back then and most had no clue how to make gold to any efficient degree. Therefore there has been an inflation of gold compared to then (also helped by things like gold duping), so the argument that a flask was 55g in 2005 so it should be 55g today is very weak.  

[Undertanker 88]

I'm literally just going to copy paste from the other threads at this point:

First in regards to your statement about inflation (which isn't what is happening, it's supply vs demand)

 

"If currency in general was getting devalued, we wouldn't have any issues.  It would actually be in favor of all players due to vendor items remaining at a fixed rate, so mounts/repairs/regents all cost less by % of average gold obtained per hour.

My transmutes still charge the same, with a 20% variable in price from server launch to today.  Why do I not get to charge 20g per transmute vs the 5g if money is devalued and inflated.     It is because it isn't.   Details below:

Black Lotus from launch to now has seen a jump in cost from 28g to 145g.  417% increase.   - demand > supply

Plaguebloom from launch to now has seen a jump in cost from 12g a stack to 80 g a stack.  566% increase. - demand > supply

Yet Arcane Crystals have only gone from 16g to 22g.  37.5% increase    inflation.

Runecloth from 1.2g a stack 1.8g a stack.  50% increase -  inflation.

Iron Grenades 1.0g to 1.55g.  55% increase - inflation.

The Ace of Beast/Deck has gone down from 800g to 600g  25% decrease - supply > demand  overachieving inflation.

The Acoe of Elementals has gone drom from 200 to 70g.    supply > demand  overachieving inflation.

Skullflame Shield from 250g to 120g.   supply > demand  overachieving inflation."

 

In response to people most likely had no clue how to make gold:

"

I think you do not give people enough credit for knowing how to farm in 2005/6.  Many of us came from DaoC or Everquest.  We KNEW how to grind.  DM East jump runs were just as big then as there are now.  Bring an enchanter, a miner and 3 man it.   Stealth Coffer runs and LBRS runs were non-stop spammed LFM at all times of day on my server.  People were always at Tyre Hand.   Elementals in Silithus, Arathi, Badlands were always being farmed.

People made hunter alts just so they could 2 hunter speed farm Mara.   Hunters soloed DM North and would sell mana pots by the masses.    Mages and Pallies aoe farmed Scourage.  

Add-ons were a thing and were used back then.  Also Thottbot had all the maps for nodes."

"Prices in general are not inflated.  No more than expected for the duration the server has been out.  Factoring in high turn-over rates with the gold on inactive accounts, inflation as a whole has been pretty moderate on Anathema.  In many cases prices for some items have been drastically lower than they were within the first couple of months of server release.  I provided some examples above, however another good example is Hide of the Wild.  It's about 2/3 the cost of what it was when released.  This is all just supply vs demand.    The demand for Lionheart helms/Hide of the Wild was high then.  Now it isn't so much to the point that it supersedes server inflation.   To get a good estimate on what our current inflation rates are, it is best to look at smaller items that drop from near unlimited resources ie: very easy to farm.  It takes looking at a list of items and getting the average rate of increase to get a general idea.  30%-35% seems to be where the general inflation rate it at.

But this poorly titled thread isn't the issue at all.  Inflation would be equal time investment = same purchase power.   ie: farm 10 minutes = 5 consumables at start of server when everything is low price.   farm 10 min = 5 consumables at end of server when everything is high price.    This is inflation and it does not harm the community.  It helps it.  Because the game itself has fixed vendor prices on mounts, repairs, and gold sinks.   Making these less trivial for everybody.

We are simply experiencing an issue with supply vs demand.  ie: farm 10 minutes = 5 consumables at start of server.   and currently now farm 10 minutes = 1/2 a consumable."

[TTL 6]

1 hour ago, Undertanker said:

Yeah okay.

I must admit in 3 hours a friend and I farmed 9 black lotus, and in 10 minutes in un'goro I found a stack of Mountain Silverage, this was with only a 4500 population. We've already figured out the new lotus respawn adjustments.

[Hellomane 0]

13 minutes ago, Undertanker said:

I think you do not give people enough credit for knowing how to farm in 2005/6.  Many of us came from DaoC or Everquest.  We KNEW how to grind. 

So you knew a bunch of aged nerds who came from Everquest/daoc back in 2005 that knew how to farm, and that proves everyone knew how to farm gold.

2 minutes ago, TTL said:

I must admit in 3 hours a friend and I farmed 9 black lotus, and in 10 minutes in un'goro I found a stack of Mountain Silverage, this was with only a 4500 population. We've already figured out the new lotus respawn adjustments.

Yep, it's absolutely ridiculous.

[Banezilla 2]

There is inflation on this server when people can just print money by solo farming DM.

inflation and hyperinflation are caused by an excessive growth of the money supply.

 

Let's see what happens with the herb prices with the increased supply.