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Whitewolf

Paladin Threat Generation

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This not a comparison so don't even go down that road. The goal is to calculate out some threat values so that people can understand the capabilities of a paladin. If some one wants to add information or reformat the post to be more pleasing let me know and I can edit this post.

Righteous Fury is assumed to be activated.

Paladin abilities that generate threat:

- Seal of Righteousness
- Judgement of Righteousness
- Holy Shield
- Blessing of Sanctuary
- Retribution Aura
- Consecration
- Hammer of Wrath
- Exorcism
- Holy Wrath
- Judgement of Light
- Judgement of Wisdom

These abilities allow a paladin to keep a mob's attention. I am going to break down each of these abilities using an 11/31/9 build. If I am wrong about something please let me know so I can correct it as this post is meant to be informative. I am also assuming 100% nightfall uptime as I don't know the average uptime.


Seal of Righteousness
• Damage buffs: One Handed Weapon Specialization, Sanctity Aura, Imp. Seal of Righteousness, and Nightfall

Base threat: ~38 TPS
Imp. SoR: ~43.7 TPS
Buffed: ~60.8 TPS

Spell Damage: 0.2538 TPS per spell damage, buffed

339 spell damage: ~143.5 TPS (fully buffed JotC and 125 spell damage)

Judgement of Righteousness
• Damage buffs: Sanctity Aura, Imp. Seal of Righteousness, and Nightfall

Base threat: ~40.5 TPS
Imp. SoR: ~46.6 TPS
Buffed: ~59 TPS

Spell damage: ~0.1502 TPS per spell damage, buffed

339 spell damage: ~112.6 TPS with 20% crit


Holy Shield
• Damage buffs: Sanctity Aura and Nightfall

Base Threat per block: ~29.6 TPS (118.6 Total)
Buffed: ~37.5 TPS (150 total)

Spell damage: 0.0144 TPS per block per spell damage (0.0577 Total)

339 spell damage: ~42.4 TPS per block (169.5 total)


Blessing of Sanctuary
• Damage buffs: Sanctity Aura and Nightfall

Base threat per block: ~66.5 threat
Assuming 4 blocks per 10 seconds: ~26.6 TPS
Buffed per block: ~84 threat
4 per 10 sec.: ~33.6 TPS


Retribution Aura
• If an allies imp. Ret aura counts for your threat multiply numbers by 1.5.

Threat per hit: 38
2 sec. speed attack assuming 25% non block avoidance: ~14.3 TPS


Consecration
• Damage buffs: Sanctity Aura and Nightfall

Base threat: ~91.2 TPS
Buffed: ~115.4 TPS

Spell damage: 0.1001 TPS per spell damage, buffed

339 spell damage: ~149.3 TPS


Hammer of Wrath
• Only usable on targets under 20% health
• Damage buffs: Sanctity Aura and Nightfall

Base threat: ~1007 (~168 TPS when target under 20%)
Buffed: ~212.5 TPS
20% crit: ~233.7 TPS

Spell damage: 0.1259 TPS

339 spell damage: ~276.4 TPS


Exorcism
• Damage buffs: Sanctity Aura and Nightfall

Base threat: ~1015.5 (67.7 TPS)
Buffed: ~85.6 TPS
20% crit: ~94.2 TPS

Spell damage: 0.054 TPS per spell damage, 0.068 buffed, 0.075 with 20% crit.

339 spell damage: ~119.8 TPS with 20% crit


Holy Wrath
• Damage buffs: Sanctity Aura and Nightfall

Base threat: ~1013 (16.9 TPS)
Buffed: ~21.4 TPS

Spell damage: 0.006 TPS (0.361)

339 spell damage: ~24 TPS


Judgement of Light
• it's healing, produces threat only if health was returned.

Base threat per proc: 30.5
Paladin alone assuming 2.0 or faster weapon: 15.25 - 20.33 TPS
Assuming 1 proc per 2 seconds for 13 raid members: 198.3 TPS.
1 proc per second: 396.5 TPS


Judgement of Wisdom
• procs on ranged weapon attacks

Base threat per proc: 29.5
Paladin alone assuming 2.0 or faster weapon: 14.75 - 19.66 TPS

Classes that use mana: feral druids, hunters, and ret paladins.

 

900 AP
54 dps weapon
One Handed Weapon Specialization
32% damage reduction on boss (includes armor reductions)
20% crit rate
~106.2 TPS

Without including JoL, JoW, Hammer of Wrath, or undead only abilities, the total combining the above including Consecration at 339 spell damage would be 622.8 TPS or 1156 dps for a ranged combatant to pull threat with BoSalvation on.

Without spell damage, spell damage buffs, JoL, undead only spells, or including a weapon you get:
Consecration: 341 TPS or 535.9 melee dps threshold (salvation)
Without: 249.8 TPS or 392.5 dps

In Naxxramas, a paladin tank is capable of 3100+ burst threat within the first 3 seconds of a fight or 2700+ without judgement using Exorcism to pull and Holy Wrath before they get close enough.


Disclaimer: this post assumes 100% hit

 

Regarding Thunderfury:

A Google search yielded this post on the Nost forums

http://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=703

Based on the information found within thunderfury would add roughly 142 TPS to the primary target with its 25% proc rate.

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Quote

 

Seal of Righteousness
• Damage buffs: One Handed Weapon Specialization, Sanctity Aura, Imp. Seal of Righteousness, and Nightfall

Base threat: ~38 TPS
Imp. SoR: ~43.7 TPS
Buffed: ~60.8 TPS

Spell Damage: 0.2538 TPS per spell damage, buffed

339 spell damage: ~139 TPS (fully buffed JotC and 125 spell damage)

 

Quote

900 AP
54 dps weapon
One Handed Weapon Specialization
32% damage reduction on boss (includes armor reductions)
20% crit rate
~106.2 TPS

You forgot something here in this calculations.

Weapon Speed , because it matters so much and makes extremely big difference regarding TPS and completely different values, different coefficients for both etc, sanctity aura missing too.

Procs missing into calculations too .

(For example with TF and 390 SP "included JoTC into SP") i was able to make 190 Holy Damage per swing with SoR , without Imp SoR .

This will result into nearly 380 threats / 1.90 = around 190 TPS (without TF Procs and without Imp SoR).

If you add the TPS from White Swings/Crits+TPS from TF Procs , this would been much higher per swing.

Quote

Without spell damage, spell damage buffs, JoL or including a weapon you get:
Consecration: 341 TPS or 535.9 dps (salvation and melee)
Without: 249.8 TPS or 463.9 dps

There is something wrong with this calculations , Consecration is not doing 170 damage per tick in order to be 341 TPS. Sanctity Aura missing too.
 

Quote

 

Judgement of Righteousness
• Damage buffs: Sanctity Aura, Imp. Seal of Righteousness, and Nightfall

Base threat: ~40.5 TPS
Imp. SoR: ~46.6 TPS
Buffed: ~59 TPS

Spell damage: ~0.1502 TPS per spell damage, buffed

339 spell damage: ~102.1 TPS

 

You are missing Crits and Sanctity Aura.
 

Quote

 

Paladin abilities that generate threat:

- Seal of Righteousness
- Judgement of Righteousness
- Holy Shield
- Blessing of Sanctuary
- Retribution Aura
- Consecration
- Judgement of Light

These abilities allow a paladin to keep a mob's attention. I am going to break down each of these abilities using an 11/31/9 build. If I am wrong about something please let me know so I can correct it as this post is meant to be informative. I am also assuming 100% nightfall uptime as I don't know the average uptime.

 

You forgot Exorcism ,Holy Wrath , Hammer  of Wraith, Judgement of Wisdom (it still makes threats per mana) .

/Kind regards Killerduki

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5 hours ago, killerduki said:

Weapon Speed , because it matters so much and makes extremely big difference regarding TPS and completely different values, different coefficients for both etc, sanctity aura missing too.

Procs missing into calculations too .

For Seal of Righteousness the only difference weapon speed makes is a 1-4 dps difference in the base value. because of that I averaged the damage per sec to 20. Spell damage scales at 9.6% per second of swing speed on a one handed weapon.

I purposely left out procs to focus on the paladin's own abilities. I can add it in if you can provide me the details (proc rate, damage, things that buff the damage, threat modifiers)

Quote

There is something wrong with this calculations , Consecration is not doing 170 damage per tick in order to be 341 TPS. Sanctity Aura missing too.

I need to format the post better, but it was adding up all the paladin abilities at without spell damage and spell damage buffs. The line below it subtracted the base threat of max rank consecrate.

Quote

You are missing Crits and Sanctity Aura.

Sanctity aura is there, but I did forget crits.

Quote

You forgot Exorcism ,Holy Wrath , Hammer  of Wraith, Judgement of Wisdom (it still makes threats per mana) .

Man I am just having an off day. I'll add them in when I get a chance. I did not know about Wisdom. How much threat does it do? If it does full threat it would definitely be better than light at producing threat.

 

 

5 hours ago, Theloras said:

FYI - with Judgement of Light up on a boss in a 40man raid, it's more like 5-10 procs per second at least.

I broke it down for 2 options: 13 people each procing once per 2 seconds and once per 1 second.

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JoL isn't generates threat if target on full HP. So on practice this numbers will be much lower.

Also can't get where you got 339 spell damage and how you got "DPS" numbers?

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2 minutes ago, DPS said:

JoL isn't generates threat if target on full HP. So on practice this numbers will be much lower.

Also can't get where you got 339 spell damage and how you got "DPS" numbers?

I was actually going off of your numbers in the other post. You mentioned 125 spell damage with enchants and weapon. Add 214 for a fully buffed JotC and you get 339. My holy light pulls threat when healing on a full health target. Why is JoL different? That's troubling.

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5 минут назад, Whitewolf сказал:

I was actually going off of your numbers in the other post. You mentioned 125 spell damage with enchants and weapon. Add 214 for a fully buffed JotC and you get 339. My holy light pulls threat when healing on a full health target. Why is JoL different? That's troubling.

Oh, so paladin will get so much debuffs =) Also holy light shouldn't provide threat on full HP targets. Overheal isn't generates aggro for any healing.

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2 hours ago, Whitewolf said:

For Seal of Righteousness the only difference weapon speed makes is a 1-4 dps difference in the base value. because of that I averaged the damage per sec to 20. Spell damage scales at 9.6% per second of swing speed on a one handed weapon.

Well for example , this matter so much , especially for Attack Power and White Swings where you didn't add the difference for Weapon Speed , you did calculate AP for white swings  , but there was nothing mention about the weapon speed used etc , because "claiming xx TPS with xx AP" will give some bad conclusions with wrong math, this will end up trolls being fed again relying on wrong math.

Another thing you might forget is , each time you parry , your next attack swing is reduced by (average) 40% , which mean with fast weapon like 4.0 speed it will work like 4.0 speed formula , but will swing each 2.1 second which is also TPS increasing.

Quote

Man I am just having an off day. I'll add them in when I get a chance. I did not know about Wisdom. How much threat does it do? If it does full threat it would definitely be better than light at producing threat.

I think it should be the same as Healing TPS (for Paladins) 0.25 , might check Kenco threat Guide for confirmation.

Blessing of Wisdom does not increase TPS, but Judgement/Seal of Wisdom does increase TPS when someone/you regen mana from it.

1 hour ago, Whitewolf said:

I was actually going off of your numbers in the other post. You mentioned 125 spell damage with enchants and weapon. Add 214 for a fully buffed JotC and you get 339. My holy light pulls threat when healing on a full health target. Why is JoL different? That's troubling.

His language barrier confuses you and he is usually Paladin Tank/Ret hater so , don't mind him too much else he will derail whole Topic.

In fact "Overheals" as he try to say (regardless if Holy or JoL) will not give you any threats, only the "heal received" will do , but if your heals top just portion of target hp instead the full amount , it will count as the portion of target hp.

/Kind regards Killerduki

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@killerduki

I'm not pala hater! I'm neutral to all classes. Thats like "Perdition Blade hater" or "Might of Menethil hater" - only retards are hating instruments. All classes are instruments as for me.

I'm just wanna to make this calculations more correct. In general this calcs show same results as I did before.

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7 hours ago, DPS said:

@killerduki

I'm not pala hater! I'm neutral to all classes. Thats like "Perdition Blade hater" or "Might of Menethil hater" - only retards are hating instruments. All classes are instruments as for me.

I'm just wanna to make this calculations more correct. In general this calcs show same results as I did before.

Where are those calculations and results ? can't see them.

/Kind regards Killerduki

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9 hours ago, killerduki said:

Well for example , this matter so much , especially for Attack Power and White Swings where you didn't add the difference for Weapon Speed , you did calculate AP for white swings  , but there was nothing mention about the weapon speed used etc , because "claiming xx TPS with xx AP" will give some bad conclusions with wrong math, this will end up trolls being fed again relying on wrong math.

The reason weapon speed doesn't matter is because the only difference its going to make is on the initial portion of SoR damage that scales with weapon speed, which is why he averaged it. The difference is minuscule in terms of the TPS unless of course you get crit and get a reckoning swing. The scaling portion of SoR is again tied to weapon speed but that doesn't matter when you use the dps rather than damage caused to calculate tps.

To me the big question is whether they are going to bug fix Imp SoR to also affect spell damage scaling in which case the TPS of a pally would change depending on the fight as you would be able to stack more or less spell damage accordingly.

I'm assuming that the end game tanking gear being used are from that other thread where we are assuming Naxx gear and heavily focused on defensive rather than tps gear?

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1 час назад, killerduki сказал:

Where are those calculations and results ? can't see them.

/Kind regards Killerduki

Your memory is bad:

Цитата

WHAT IS HOLY SHIELD?

- Its buff(orly? jk) while its active, each time you block, attacker gets 130+Your spelldamage*0.05 Holy damage (with 1k spell damage it will hit for 180 only!!!!) , and in additional it will provide you ~40 extra threat. So with 1000 spell damage, sanc aura and Rfury buff we will generate 416 threat at each charge. We have 4x charges = Holy shield with that buffs will provides us 1665 threat with 10sec CD = 167 TPS.

 

WHAT IS SEAL OF RIGHTEOUSNESS?

- Its buff(orly? jk) while its active, each time you attack with your auto-attack, attacket gets 30(with 1.6 speed) or 60 (with 2.8 speed) damage + Your spell damage*0.16(for 1.6 speed), and *0.3 for 2.8 speed. Mean, with 1000 spell damage and 1.6 weapon(avg dmg vs boss 220)/2.8 weapon(avg dmg vs boss 480) the results will be: 190 holy and 220 white for 1.6 speed, and 360 holy and 480 white for 2.8 speed. 

TPS result with sanc aura and rfury: 385 TPS for 1.6 and 440 TPS for 2.8. Yeah pretty huge numbers for auto-attack only, but thats req 1000(!) SPELL DAMAGE.

And still, coefs are bugged, since they should be 10% at any weap speed for SoR. ;-)

Ofc, you can get full Spelldamage gear+buffs, but you're wasting your money for nothing, and the most important thing, you're wasting FLASK OF THE TITANS! You're wasting tanking stats that you need to survive. Ofc, you can get more healers to your raid, but thats mean that WHOLE RAID should work for 1 pala tank! 

 

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@killerduki

4 minutes ago, DPS said:

 

Why don't both of you pretend that both of you don't exist and therefore refrain from responding to each other to prevent a derailment of this thread? If you don't behave I'll hide this thread and we can all effectively ignore it.

 

26 minutes ago, Xaph said:

The reason weapon speed doesn't matter is because the only difference its going to make is on the initial portion of SoR damage that scales with weapon speed, which is why he averaged it. The difference is minuscule in terms of the TPS unless of course you get crit and get a reckoning swing. The scaling portion of SoR is again tied to weapon speed but that doesn't matter when you use the dps rather than damage caused to calculate tps.

To me the big question is whether they are going to bug fix Imp SoR to also affect spell damage scaling in which case the TPS of a pally would change depending on the fight as you would be able to stack more or less spell damage accordingly.

I'm assuming that the end game tanking gear being used are from that other thread where we are assuming Naxx gear and heavily focused on defensive rather than tps gear?

I didn't want to go too far into detail so I brought a few ideas from that thread but otherwise the stats are too low to be Naxx gear as it was meant as a general guide, not a step by step tutorial.

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4 hours ago, Whitewolf said:

@killerduki

Why don't both of you pretend that both of you don't exist and therefore refrain from responding to each other to prevent a derailment of this thread? If you don't behave I'll hide this thread and we can all effectively ignore it.

I am not sure why this was pointed at me , for some moment i tough i speak regarding this Topic.

(All these formulas you guys speak about was discovered and reported to bugtracker by me ,otherwise not sure how people can forget the use of SoR previously where it was doing some flat random dmg with 10% coefficient regardless of speed excluding one-handed etc).

4 hours ago, DPS said:

Your memory is bad:

 

The Problem with your calculation is :
 

Quote

 

WHAT IS SEAL OF RIGHTEOUSNESS?

- Its buff(orly? jk) while its active, each time you attack with your auto-attack, attacket gets 30(with 1.6 speed) or 60 (with 2.8 speed) damage + Your spell damage*0.16(for 1.6 speed), and *0.3 for 2.8 speed. Mean, with 1000 spell damage and 1.6 weapon(avg dmg vs boss 220)/2.8 weapon(avg dmg vs boss 480) the results will be: 190 holy and 220 white for 1.6 speed, and 360 holy and 480 white for 2.8 speed. 

TPS result with sanc aura and rfury: 385 TPS for 1.6 and 440 TPS for 2.8. Yeah pretty huge numbers for auto-attack only, but thats req 1000(!) SPELL DAMAGE.

And still, coefs are bugged, since they should be 10% at any weap speed for SoR. ;-)

Ofc, you can get full Spelldamage gear+buffs, but you're wasting your money for nothing, and the most important thing, you're wasting FLASK OF THE TITANS! You're wasting tanking stats that you need to survive. Ofc, you can get more healers to your raid, but thats mean that WHOLE RAID should work for 1 pala tank! 

 

Quote

 

WHAT IS SEAL OF RIGHTEOUSNESS?

- Its buff(orly? jk) while its active, each time you attack with your auto-attack, attacket gets 30(with 1.6 speed) or 60 (with 2.8 speed) damage + Your spell damage*0.16(for 1.6 speed), and *0.3 for 2.8 speed. Mean, with 1000 spell damage and 1.6 weapon(avg dmg vs boss 220)/2.8 weapon(avg dmg vs boss 480) the results will be: 190 holy and 220 white for 1.6 speed, and 360 holy and 480 white for 2.8 speed. 

 

You said i need 1000 Spell damage to make 190 Holy damage for 1.6 Speed , while in reality i been doing with 400 SP = 190 Holy damage with 1.9 Speed.

(This is why your calculations are wrong).

Quote

And still, coefs are bugged, since they should be 10% at any weap speed for SoR. ;-)

This is also wrong and proven as wrong with evidence in the Bugtracker.

There is a reason why your math was not added into account.

/Kind regards Killerduki

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2 hours ago, killerduki said:

I am not sure why this was pointed at me , for some moment i tough i speak regarding this Topic.

I mentioned you because of what you typed after this line. Just ignore the other person.

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1 sp = 0.22 dps if you're using consecrate, JoR, and holy shield on cd getting all blocks and hits. That means that 500 sp would be about 110 dps. Now I don't know how threat is calculated and that number doesn't include any of the scaling talents but that's the correct scaling number for 1h SoR regardless of weapon speed.

 

Based of the threat discussion in the warrior forums we should expect with a buffed paladin 1 holy dmg = 1.9 threat. Which would mean that for 1 sp using consecrate, JoR, and holy shield on cd, 1 sp = 0.418 threat.

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9 часов назад, killerduki сказал:

 

You said i need 1000 Spell damage to make 190 Holy damage for 1.6 Speed , while in reality i been doing with 400 SP = 190 Holy damage with 1.9 Speed.

(This is why your calculations are wrong).

Proofs? I tested it. You need 1000spell damage to make paladin with Widow's remorce to hit for 190.

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5 hours ago, DPS said:

Proofs? I tested it. You need 1000spell damage to make paladin with Widow's remorce to hit for 190.

Please take it to private messages and do not derail this thread.

Widows Remorse with 1000 sp would be 153.6 damage + base SoR damage. This does not factor in talent scaling.

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Additional thing to add (Which is bug) , currently in this Project Holy Shield can Crit and it work according to Spell Crits (which should not).

"this is just to let you know since it makes some changes to the threats values" .

Another spell needs to be taken into account is Holy Shock , since many go for it .

Quote

Without including JoL, the total including Consecration at 339 spell damage would be 607.8 TPS or 1129 dps for a ranged combatant to pull threat with BoSalvation on.
Including JoL would be 1004.3TPS or 1865 dps
Without Consecration you get 855 TPS or 1588 dps.

This really need to get fixed , it is so much confusing and missleading to be honest as Consecration is not making 600 TPS to a single target , not even close to this (even with or without JoL) .

I've never seen Consecration doing 300 Holy Damage per tick as a Tank , it is the reason why it is so weird to see this , Consecration so far i have done max with 400 SP was around 60-70 damage a tick = 140 TPS max.

It would probably make around 150 TPS or 200 TPS by max if you have 1k sp , i still have no clear view how did you got Consecration doing such big amount , TPS = Threat per second , Consecration = Damage divided over 8 seconds = 1/8 of the TPS .

/Kind regards Killerduki

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10 hours ago, DPS said:

Proofs? I tested it. You need 1000spell damage to make paladin with Widow's remorce to hit for 190.

400 spell damage + 161 JotC

Thunderfury 1.9 speed

(102.3264 spell damage +35.8 base) * 1.1 one hand spec * 1.1 Sanctity * 1.15 nightfall = 192.2

Using the same math at 1000 spell damage you would get ~303 damage (~344 w/ JotC 161).

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27 минут назад, Whitewolf сказал:

400 spell damage + 161 JotC

Thunderfury 1.9 speed

(102.3264 spell damage +35.8 base) * 1.1 one hand spec * 1.1 Sanctity * 1.15 nightfall = 192.2

Using the same math at 1000 spell damage you would get ~303 damage (~344 w/ JotC 161).

190x with 1000spell damage is w/o sactity and nightfall. Also one hand spec included in numbers. That's numbers comes not from math, but from live test on Elysium core GM account, using .modify spelldamage 1000 

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55 minutes ago, DPS said:

190x with 1000spell damage is w/o sactity and nightfall. Also one hand spec included in numbers. That's numbers comes not from math, but from live test on Elysium core GM account, using .modify spelldamage 1000 

Then it should be doing roughly 184 damage without one handed spec and 202 with it. The only thing I can think of is that the base damage is off or the spell damage coefficient is off.

The problem with your claim is that it is from a non raid perspective while also comparing to a weapon that swings .3 seconds slower. I'm not saying anyone is right, just that there was obvious miscommunication.

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20 минут назад, Whitewolf сказал:

Then it should be doing roughly 189 damage without one handed spec and 208 with it. The only thing I can think of is that the base damage is off or the spell damage coefficient is off by a whole 1% for one handers. It's supposed to be 9.6% but an 8.6% gives me your numbers.

The problem with your claim is that it is from a non raid perspective while also comparing to a weapon that swings .3 seconds slower. I'm not saying anyone is right, just that there was obvious miscommunication.

Its 191-192 with 5/5 1H spec, 5/5 imp SoR, 1000 spelldamage and 1.6 weapon(Widow's remorse). W/o any additional buffs(No sanc aura, no Nightfall etc)

And 358-359 with same stats but with 2.9 speed (R14 1H sword), and 518x with 4.0 2H Weapon.

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42 minutes ago, DPS said:

Its 191-192 with 5/5 1H spec, 5/5 imp SoR, 1000 spelldamage and 1.6 weapon(Widow's remorse). W/o any additional buffs(No sanc aura, no Nightfall etc)

And 358-359 with same stats but with 2.9 speed (R14 1H sword), and 518x with 4.0 2H Weapon.

I ered with a 9.6% coefficient. It is supposed to be 9.2%. You mentioning the imp SoR would make the coefficient between 8.6-8.7%.

But then the slower weapons are doing too much damage... something is off here.

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1 hour ago, Whitewolf said:

I ered with a 9.6% coefficient. It is supposed to be 9.2%. You mentioning the imp SoR would make the coefficient between 8.6-8.7%.

But then the slower weapons are doing too much damage... something is off here.

That's because of the base damage and coefficient is not 9.2% for 2h weapons as he compared the 4.0 speed , it is much higher.

But then you wont get 4-8 tps from base SoR damage increase with slower weapons , they are much off and higher , tho you have some other calculations not included into the formula.

/Kind regards Killerduki

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