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PvP faction imbalanced caused by premades is killing the server

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@Frankenberry

You've made some fair points. I would just like to point out that, in the first part of your post, you kind of missed the point. "So in my opinion I can't see how changes to premades would really make a difference for you guys." It would make all the difference in the world for solo players. I've tested this myself out of sheer curiosity to see how it feels for "regular" players. 33 solo WSG games, 29 losses - 4 wins.

The only reason behind this terrible score is the fact that with the system we currently have in place, each time you solo queue you'll almost certainly get a premade team on the other side. At that point, it does not matter how skilled or how geared you are, it is going to be a quick loss. Long story short, it is virtually impossible to get a decent amount of honor each week if you solo queue. The only exception to this is if some premade team joins the WSG with a few spots free - then some lucky pug players get carried. That being said, premade vs. premade prio would make solo playing perfectly viable since pugs would be facing pugs and that would more or less be an even playing field. 

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1 hour ago, Kalmar said:

@Frankenberry

You've made some fair points. I would just like to point out that, in the first part of your post, you kind of missed the point. "So in my opinion I can't see how changes to premades would really make a difference for you guys." It would make all the difference in the world for solo players. I've tested this myself out of sheer curiosity to see how it feels for "regular" players. 33 solo WSG games, 29 losses - 4 wins.

Damn you kinda got rekt :(

Just kidding.  It's really nice to see that you went through the trouble of field testing. 

Yes, this is the state of the game right now for people who don't have time to form a full premade for a little fun in BGs.  For some people, it's not even about player skill or gear or social connections; you might just have 40 minutes to play a little WoW; not enough time to form a premade, but enough time to jump into a BG, if it were fun to do that, which right now it's not. 

There is one more thing to consider, though.  If there is a dominant team on one side (which there often is, on Alliance side), then Horde PvPers will not queue into a designated premade queue without an optimal team (which often does not happen).  Instead they will queue at the same time on the Horde side, hoping to get into a PuG game with a few of their fellow rankers.  Or, even if they don't coordinate the queues, the sheer fact that serious Horde PvPers are queueing solo into PuG games will increase the overall gear/skill level of the horde side in that game, resulting, more often than not, in a stomp of the Alliance side.  The solutions to this are not simple (as you know better than I do, I'm sure).  But here are a couple of thoughts:

-- Designate some days of the week "pug only" days for PvP.  For example, maybe Friday - Sunday is PuG only.  Or maybe certain hours of the day are PuG only.  Just disable group queueing during these days of the week (or hours of the day), and implement a queue system that randomizes the teams on both sides, to prevent the side with fewer players (usually Alliance) from circumventing the system (like they often did when BGs were first released here). For example, instead of starting a new WSG game whenever there are sufficient numbers on each side, make the queue system wait a fixed period of time (5-10 minutes?) after the queue is full.  Then fill the game (or multiple games) with a random group of people from the queue on each side.  **Also, if you implement this, the premade vs. premade games should be worth much more honor.  Like 4x or 5x the honor of normal games, as described below.**

-- Separate the queues (Pug / Premade) and give bigger honor gains for winning in premade vs. premade groups.  For example, the bonus honor for capping a flag in a "PuG" WSG could be 100 honor, while the bonus honor for capping a flag in a premade WSG could be 500 honor.  Similar discrepancies could be applied for resource margins in AB.  This will encourage the ranking players on both sides to "form their own premades", while leaving the more "casual" PvPers to have some fun (with substantial but lower honor gains) in the PuG games.  ***Also, and this might be getting too into the weeds, but maybe consider allowing players to queue for both the premade queue and the pug queue at the same time.  Otherwise you might have players not sure whether to bother forming a premade, since they won't want to sit in a queue, unsure whether another premade will queue on the other side.  They can just join both queues and play pug games as needed between the premade games.  Allow players to accept a premade queue while playing in a PuG game, but not the other way around.*** 

-- Give participation rewards for WSG and AB.  The loser gets some 'participation' honor and one warsong token or AB ribbon.  The winner gets 2x or 3x.  I suppose this is scheduled to occur at some point in the progression, but I'm not sure how soon that will be.  It should be implemented sooner!  I don't love this solution, tbh, because at some point the participation reward will be cold comfort to getting your faced smashed in by BREs and R14 weapons. 

-- Give the "deserter" debuff to anyone who leaves a battleground queue after it pops.  (Queue dodging on the horde side is contributing to the premade vs. pug stompfest that is driving Alliance players from the queues.) 

 

Maybe these ideas aren't any good, but I hope you will keep thinking about this.  It's probably the weakest aspect of the game on Nighthaven right now.  Please do try to improve the situation! 

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9 hours ago, Kalmar said:

@Frankenberry

You've made some fair points. I would just like to point out that, in the first part of your post, you kind of missed the point. "So in my opinion I can't see how changes to premades would really make a difference for you guys." It would make all the difference in the world for solo players. I've tested this myself out of sheer curiosity to see how it feels for "regular" players. 33 solo WSG games, 29 losses - 4 wins.

I still fail to see how removing premades or making it a premade vs. premade priority system will encourage more alliance players to queue up which is the main the problem. That and queue dodging. How would it result in more alliance players starting to queue up? I can see why it would maybe encourage more horde players to start queue'ing but that isn't really the problem, is it?

8 hours ago, Gnog said:

-- Designate some days of the week "pug only" days for PvP.  For example, maybe Friday - Sunday is PuG only.  Or maybe certain hours of the day are PuG only. 

I can only speak for myself but doing this will result in me never setting foot in a bg ever again as soon as I hit my rank 13. I want to play with my friends. Not random guys from the server. And I know a lot of other rankers (which are basically the only guys queue'ing atm) feel the same way. This suggestion could actually do much more harm than good to queue times.

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Frankenberry,

Removing the option for premades to farm honor cap from pugs all day, and give them significantly longer/ indefinite queues into other premades will force them to play solo. This will increase the Alliance player pool. You will not gain honor as efficiently in a higher variance, FAIRER pug v pug system, and so you will also need to queue more games in order to gain honor. It will no longer be a free ride to cap, so I can see why you are contesting this change, but it will most definitely increase the amount of Alliance players queueing solo.

If you only want 1 sided stomps with stacked team in a low population server, instead of fairer and enjoyable PvP, then by all means leave the server.

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В 16.04.2018 в 10:49, Gnog сказал:

-- Give the "deserter" debuff to anyone who leaves a battleground queue after it pops.  (Queue dodging on the horde side is contributing to the premade vs. pug stompfest that is driving Alliance players from the queues.) 

this ^

to avoid BGs like this:

 UMPxwB3.png

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can someone explain why or how those guys get instant WSG procs during prime time? unplayable

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4 hours ago, fixpvp said:

Frankenberry,

Removing the option for premades to farm honor cap from pugs all day, and give them significantly longer/ indefinite queues into other premades will force them to play solo. This will increase the Alliance player pool. You will not gain honor as efficiently in a higher variance, FAIRER pug v pug system, and so you will also need to queue more games in order to gain honor. It will no longer be a free ride to cap, so I can see why you are contesting this change, but it will most definitely increase the amount of Alliance players queueing solo.

If you only want 1 sided stomps with stacked team in a low population server, instead of fairer and enjoyable PvP, then by all means leave the server.

You think this will be the result but I can tell you that I find it highly unlike this will be the outcome.

Some time ago when they announced there would be no premades at this server (the day before they released the bg's) several of the alliance top pvp'ers (aka, the most active pvp'ers) were ready to leave the servers. They however quickly found out they could play together through queue'ing at the same time at getting into the same games that way. So they stayed on this server and after a while they removed the cap so you could group up as more than 4 persons.

I can tell you for sure that the several of the most active pvp'ers on alliance - myself included - will not play if we are forced to play with pugs. I want to play with my friends and I want to play with good players. Hell I wouldn't even have started pvp'ing on this server if it had not been because I could play with friends and later on join a full premade. Premade vs. Premade prio system is fine. It's funny to play against other premades and it creates server rivalry and competition but if you make a system where you strongly encourage pugging to get rank you will kill the alliance pvp-scene for good.

PvP'ing is fun and all but at it's core WoW is a social game. The best part about being in a premade is the relations you form with your teammates. That you get to know them, that you talk to them on discord, socialize, joke around and so on. Forcing players to go pug vs pug would harm the pvp scene on this server. Not help it. Who in their right minds wants to sit in pugs all day?

Also honour caps has little to do with this system. It was there when people could only join as 4 man groups as well. Premades or very active pvp'ers will always farm more than the more casual players or players without a premade. Caps are just a way of pvp'ers agreeing to a cap. It has little to do with premades in general.

Edited by Frankenberry

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58 minutes ago, Frankenberry said:

You think this will be the result but I can tell you that I find it highly unlike this will be the outcome.

Some time ago when they announced there would be no premades at this server (the day before they released the bg's) several of the alliance top pvp'ers (aka, the most active pvp'ers) were ready to leave the servers. They however quickly found out they could play together through queue'ing at the same time at getting into the same games that way. So they stayed on this server and after a while they removed the cap so you could group up as more than 4 persons.

I can tell you for sure that the several of the most active pvp'ers on alliance - myself included - will not play if we are forced to play with pugs. I want to play with my friends and I want to play with good players. Hell I wouldn't even have started pvp'ing on this server if it had not been because I could play with friends and later on join a full premade. Premade vs. Premade prio system is fine. It's funny to play against other premades and it creates server rivalry and competition but if you make a system where you strongly encourage pugging to get rank you will kill the alliance pvp-scene for good.

PvP'ing is fun and all but at it's core WoW is a social game. The best part about being in a premade is the relations you form with your teammates. That you get to know them, that you talk to them on discord, socialize, joke around and so on. Forcing players to go pug vs pug would harm the pvp scene on this server. Not help it. Who in their right minds wants to sit in pugs all day?

Also honour caps has little to do with this system. It was there when people could only join as 4 man groups as well. Premades or very active pvp'ers will always farm more than the more casual players or players without a premade. Caps are just a way of pvp'ers agreeing to a cap. It has little to do with premades in general.

There is a reason most competetive games released after the year 2010 have a seperate matchmaking queue for solo and team play - queueing as a team creates an unfair advantage and frustration for your opponents. Seems like you don't want to play with bad players on your team but are happy to farm them with your premade when they are on the enemy. If solo queue and group queue are seperate you can still play in a premade if you choose to do so, your appeal to server rivalry, social aspect etc is redundant.

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49 minutes ago, fixpvp said:

Seems like you don't want to play with bad players on your team but are happy to farm them with your premade when they are on the enemy.

We have the most fun when facing other premades.

49 minutes ago, fixpvp said:

There is a reason most competetive games released after the year 2010 have a seperate matchmaking queue for solo and team play - queueing as a team creates an unfair advantage and frustration for your opponents.

WoW is not really that type of game imho. There is a big difference a game such as Starcraft (I game a myself enjoy very much) or LoL on the one hand which are build around the competition and a game like WoW which is an MMORPG that includes players having better items than others. Part of MMO's is that "epic" geared players get to use those superior items on players who are worse of. It's not fair and was never meant to be so.

49 minutes ago, fixpvp said:

If solo queue and group queue are seperate you can still play in a premade if you choose to do so

The server is even close to being big enough to completely separate the queue's. Premade prio is fine. Complete separation goes against game design and is will do more harm than good to the pvp scene. Again I want to try and get this message across to the horde: You guys on horde are on average way more interested in PvP than Alliance players. This is due to the strong pvp racials on horde and the notion that Horde is stronger in PvP and Alliance is better at PvE (a notion I don't agree with but it's there for sure). Besides us in Kamuflasjefylla most other guilds don't care at all about ranking or PvP'ing. There isn't a big player pool that aren't queue'ing because they lose too much in pug vs pug games and need help from alliance rankers to "step down" and pug games with them.

Again: It's not gonna happen. What you will achieve - and I know this because I talk to the other rankers among alliance - is that they will quit pvp'ing, maybe finish if they only have a few weeks left or entirely quit the server and wait for Fresh Lightbringer.


Personally I don't really have that big stakes in this. I'm done after this week and after Tuesday I will purely play to help out my friends or just have some fun and play with them. If I can't do that I'll just focus purely on PvE instead like the rest of the alliance. It doesn't even have to be a full premade but queue'ing solo is just no fun at all.

Edited by Frankenberry

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Cant be much more fun for you than the horde who queue into the same premade everyweek and stay dead in their GY 90% of the time , wich beggars the question why are you still doing it? Fun? for sure not ur not even slightly getting a challenge atm and its kinda sad for both sides :(

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54 minutes ago, Lightswitch said:

Cant be much more fun for you than the horde who queue into the same premade everyweek and stay dead in their GY 90% of the time , wich beggars the question why are you still doing it? Fun? for sure not ur not even slightly getting a challenge atm and its kinda sad for both sides :(

To rank. If it becomes too much for you make a premade =)

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Caused by premades AND THE FACT THE GM'S DON'T CARE WHEN ALLIANCE CHEESE RAIDLOCKING FOR DOUBLE WEEKLY RAID.

They've literally just been caught doing it, and Rain was like "naah can't be arsed bcus ppl would get mad"

literally didn't even reach the logical conclusion to simply lock them out of raid next week.
Nah, better just let it slide, but Azuregos at 30%?
being killed by horde?
where is my banhammer.

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pvp prio system wont help

sorry but no one is gonna wait a long time for queues at low honor

u think people are playing for fun when they are all playing for honor only

if prio sys implemented = people will just solo queue on the same time to enter same game... just as before

Edited by GeoData

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10 hours ago, DespawnworldbossLOL said:

Caused by premades AND THE FACT THE GM'S DON'T CARE WHEN ALLIANCE CHEESE RAIDLOCKING FOR DOUBLE WEEKLY RAID.

They've literally just been caught doing it, and Rain was like "naah can't be arsed bcus ppl would get mad"

literally didn't even reach the logical conclusion to simply lock them out of raid next week.
Nah, better just let it slide, but Azuregos at 30%?
being killed by horde?
where is my banhammer.

Let's get one thing straight here dude before your continue your trolling with your troll account name:

Alliance did NOT get doubble raid ID for MC last week. HORDE did (Maximum Effort)

Now if you could stop commenting on stuff you do not have any knowledge about i am sure it would be highly appreciated.

Thanks.

 

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Hello i dont wanna make new topic so im asking here :) Can you guys tell me which patch brings improved blue pvp gear ? Some people claims AQ patch brings it, some others says it will come with Naxx. Thank you for answer :) 

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On 7/27/2018 at 10:17 AM, Ironz said:

Hello i dont wanna make new topic so im asking here :) Can you guys tell me which patch brings improved blue pvp gear ? Some people claims AQ patch brings it, some others says it will come with Naxx. Thank you for answer :) 

Refresh :) Can some GM answer? :) Or anybody? :)

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