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Call to Arms: Improving PvP!

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On 5/4/2018 at 1:59 PM, Gnog said:

I play on the horde side, mwdruid, and I have been part of plenty of horde premades that beat alliance premades, including the good ones. I have seen how the alliance premades stop queueing when they start losing. The point of pushing for changes here is that, in my view, a healthy PvP scene is good for the server overall. Unfortunately, right now, the scene is not good because of rampant queue dodging (and a few other things, like prohibitively expensive respecs). Unless the queue dodging is addressed, we will continue to see the current cycle play out each week, with horde rankers dodging Rosen/Lurp/Auracius/etc. to smash pugs, and horde puggers getting dumped into the games against those same premades. This can be improved by preventing the dodges. 

Edit:  To put a finer point on it, please see WobLight's post above.  There is an Alliance player who is seeing the consequences of horde dodging.  Why would WobLight continue to queue in this situation? 

Your idea ("also the way deserter should be implemented is you receive deserter after dropping a queue x amount of time that resets after 48 hrs or something not simply for afking out of games") would be fine, as long as the deserter debuff is applied after the 2nd or 3rd queue-dodge. 

Say something negative about queue dodging when your premade, which you spent good time organizing, goes up against another premade that drops 50g+ worth of pots PER PERSON, EVERY game, to beat you.  It means you will lose every time, EVERY TIME.  Most people can't afford that but simply want to be in a premade at the same time.

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3 hours ago, Frankenberry said:

TLDR:

1) respecc cost at 25g.

2) Don't implement queue'ing from around the world. It's fine as it is.

3) Give deserter if you drop a queue and make it impossible to queue both WSG and AB simultaneously.

4) Update PvP gear in 1.9 instead of 1.11 and release gear gained through rep with a BG-faction now. There is no reason not to release it now and 1.11 was too late.

Hey there. A bit about myself. I'm alliance, rank 13 and played almost purely on premades. I'm done ranking and from now on will purely play PvP to help out friends / have some fun so I don't have any personal "ranking" interest in the end result of this discussion. I am of course interested in the overall well being of the PvP-scene on the server since it's in my opinion important and it keeps a server alive.

Vanilla PvP isn't fair. It involves engineering gadgets, consumables and cheap tricks. Anything goes (without breaking server rules ofc).
World PvP isn't fair. You kill one guy who was on low life only to be ganked by his 4 friends 1 minute later. It's not fair and it's not supposed to be fair. I think this is important to keep in mind when designing server structures around server PvP. I don't think it's a big problem that premades group up and smash less organized players. It's not fair and it ain't supposed to be.

To address the suggestions in the OP suggestions:
 

1) respecc cost:

Only having 1 talent specc and having some solidity to your character is part of Vanilla. I don't think talent respec costs should be lowered too low. However a cap of 25g seems in order. 50g was - in my opinion - too high in vanilla and still is too high today. I would prefer not to see it go lower than 25g though. I don't like it that characters constantly swap between speccs / setups / talents. Part of the server PvP community is to know which of the priests are shadow and holy. Which of the Paladins are Ret and which are holy. If the respecc cost goes too low (for instance 5 or 10g as often suggested) I think it will diminish the PvP-community. But yes. Lower it to 25g.

2) Queue'ing from around the world.

This suggestion will make little difference. Even when you could only queue from Ashenvale (or barrens if you were horde) you could always have someone else queue you up as a group. It won't really make a big difference in terms of accessibility if you want to PvP. It does however make it easier to use battlegrounds as an escape from World PvP or ganking which I don't like.

3) reworking queue matching system.

Wrong approach to solving the problem in my humble opinion. Premades - for the most part - farm honour. If you change up the system the players will just work around it. Rankers will start solo queue'ing at the same time to end up in the same game with group queue. Just as we did with AV and WSG when it was initially released with 4 man queue.

What should be done is the following:

A) You should not be able to queue WSG and AB at the same time. You shouldn't be allowed to queue AB while in WSG and visa versa either.

B) You should get 15 min deserter for dropping the queue.

What will this achieve?

It will combat queue-dodging which will become even more rampant now premades have two bg's for honorfarming (I don't really include AV in this category).

Say you have 2 premades - 1 on horde and one on alliance. If they both queue WSG and AB - which they will if they are farming honor - what will happen is that they will open up games for each other to join. The strongest premade will take the highest honor-per-hour option (usually AB) and end up in a premade vs pug (usually 15 vs few) and get an easy 5-cap win while the other premade will get an easy 3-0 in WSG.

It isn't coordinated and it isn't purposely win trading but the result is the same.

This server population isn't big enough to support a "premade vs. premade" queue priority system but if the two suggestions above are implemented it will force premades to face each other on a regular basis and give a better experience for everyone involved.

4) Update PvP Gear Earlier than 1.11.

To give an incentive for players to engage in PvP I think the server staff should make some changes when it comes to PvP-gear update compared to how Blizzard did it back in when WoW first came out. Overall I think the staff should really consider this option because it's a positive incentive for players to seek out PvP instead of a punishing one which is how I view all the attempts in trying to shut down premades.

First of all release all the rep items from BG's. The legging items from WSG are already semi-outdated and when they will not be used by anyone when they are finally released. The ring from AV is also useful for new players who just got into the PvP scene. There is no reason why these items were released as late to the game as they were.

Second update the PvP-armor sets and implement the R14 weapons / offhands that hasn't been implemented yet at 1.9 instead of 1.11. The original 1.11 update was way too late and I think everyone who compares items from PvP with items from PvE at 1.11 can see this. Even if you don't clear content in Naxxramas the PvP gear is still (for the most part) just about on par with what you get from raiding in AQ. Bear in mind this is comparing R12,13 and 14 gear with AQ gear.

Also keep in mind the gear is on par with AQ (and by the later stages of AQ subpar) which means it's not like we are giving a massive advantage to players with high ranking gear.

Finally the blue set from R7-10 will be of increased value for both "casual" mains or maybe people who want an alt with some decent gear.

Keeping this update at 1.11 will soon make ranking utterly useless which will be very harmful to the PvP-scene.

Well said Frankenberry, this guy knows his stuff.

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5 hours ago, IceKnight366 said:

Say something negative about queue dodging when your premade, which you spent good time organizing, goes up against another premade that drops 50g+ worth of pots PER PERSON, EVERY game, to beat you.  It means you will lose every time, EVERY TIME.  Most people can't afford that but simply want to be in a premade at the same time.

We beat that team 50/50 even when they flask.  You are defending queue dodging because you cannot beat another team. Take the loss and keep playing. Stop dodging. 

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21 hours ago, Gnog said:

We beat that team 50/50 even when they flask.  You are defending queue dodging because you cannot beat another team. Take the loss and keep playing. Stop dodging. 

So your reasons for defending eliminating queue dodging are better than my reasons for defending queue dodging?  Keep dreaming.

Do you even know what time I'm talking about?  Tell me, who are they?

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Premade dodging effect in AB: today I had a 2v14 and a 6vs14 arathi, I didn't even played that many.

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I was thinking, more fair would probably be disabling multi-queue for premades rather than all players.

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1 hour ago, Bovine1320 said:

You fairness judgement is totally biased towards yourself. Stop thinking too much. Play wow. Retail, if you need it so bad.

What's the reason for such a harsh reply? This thread is to gather idea, and I merely added something to discuss about. Also, it was a reference to an above post which suggested to just disable multiqueuing for everyone:

On 6/5/2018 at 7:54 PM, Vekst said:

3) Give deserter if you drop a queue and make it impossible to queue both WSG and AB simultaneously.

Or alternatively, since yesterday I was in premade and we queued arathi after a while because WSG was not starting, you could just make the queue drop when the other is popped.

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1 hour ago, WobLight said:

Or alternatively, since yesterday I was in premade and we queued arathi after a while because WSG was not starting, you could just make the queue drop when the other is popped.

No. That doesn't work. If team A and team B queue for both WSG and AB the following will happen:

Team A (strongest team) picks the bg they want to play in. The one with highest honour per hour yield.

Team B picks the other one.

Both win and pugs lose 100% of the time. It's also the reason why you see so many 10 vs. > 4 and 15 vs > 5 games in WSG and AB.
Essentially this is queue dodging all though it's not necessarily with the intend of dodging the result is the same.

Opening BG's that players don't intend to play is the main problem.

Also as a sidenote removing multiqueue'ing from groups doesn't work since you just group queue for one bg and solo queue for the other OR just solo queue both simultaneously and get into the same games that way.

Edited by Frankenberry

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32 minutes ago, Frankenberry said:

No. That doesn't work. If team A and team B queue for both WSG and AB the following will happen:

Team A (strongest team) picks the bg they want to play in. The one with highest honour per hour yield.

Team B picks the other one.

Both win and pugs lose 100% of the time. It's also the reason why you see so many 10 vs. > 4 and 15 vs > 5 games in WSG and AB.
Essentially this is queue dodging all though it's not necessarily with the intend of dodging the result is the same.

Opening BG's that players don't intend to play is the main problem.

Also as a sidenote removing multiqueue'ing from groups doesn't work since you just group queue for one bg and solo queue for the other OR just solo queue both simultaneously and get into the same games that way.

I meant to remove the other queue when you get invite for the other, even before you accept it, so that you can't choose but the 1st queue giving invite.

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27 minutes ago, Bovine1320 said:

You're welcome to dream, it's nice thing to do, but keep your innovative dreams private and let game stay at it's predetermined "stone age" level.

FYI, on Anathema queuing for multiple BGs was not possible at all. My proposal was actually aiming to avoid that to happen again. Back on Anathema there wasn't any 4v14 BG, but (also due to low population) there was a loop in which people only queued for the shortest queue, limiting very much the choose and thus pushing people away from PvP.

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Disable multi-queue for groups. Stop this rampant pseudo win trading going on, where horde and alliance premades notice a pattern and start opening games for each other. There is no communication needed, you just notice the usual games and the weaker team concedes the Arathi Basin to the other side. Both premades win a landslide 2000-0 or 3-0 game then do it again.

Disabling multi-queue for parties only will not solve the situation entirely. You have to make sure that it's impossible to queue for WSG or AB, if even a single player in the party is queued for either WSG or AB or inside either of the two Battlegrounds. Else the result will be that players in the premades start solo-queue to open up games for the other faction. Note, there is no win trading going on. It's implied between premades that you open up games for each other to keep the BGs popping for both sides.
 

No limitations on how many people can be in the queue will solve the issue. The entire point of running a premade, is to get unreachable lead over any solo players attempting to disturb the calculated stacking going on at the top 10-20 positions. Whatever system you implement to prevent players from playing with their friends will be shortly defeated by the players.

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Anyway, atm most harmful think is having BG starting at minimum player requirements instead of full. People keep swapping from and half empty BG to another, and it's really frustrating.

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Everyone keeps saying that there is no point in queuing against a premade (on both sides), but if people would queue you wouldn't always get a premade #thinkaboutit. I do agree with Verandin that unless you limit queuing to just one BG then dodging will still happen OR make it so leaving a single BG at any point period before the game ends will count as a deserter (afk the player out in between transfers and give the player deserter). You may think this will continue to open closed games, but if you think about it people wont try dodging as the only way to transfer from one game to another now is by your group leader taking the second queue outside the BG on purpose. So people wont do it.

 

IE: If a player is in WSG and transfers to AB before game end = AFK + Deserter.

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22 hours ago, MericleWorker said:

IE: If a player is in WSG and transfers to AB before game end = AFK + Deserter.

That's pointless, then new AB will start half empty this way. Just suspend the queue of someone inside another BG. Also I'd like to say again BGs should start when all players are queued, not the minimal amount.

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Please allow AV queue to persist in other battlegrounds; otherwise, there will never be another AV. It's been "Average wait time: Unavailable" since the change.

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And I don't think there is any way to completely eliminate dodging. Even with the fix, our horde premade was playing empty games after the first couple of wins. The server should just focus on ways to increase the number of active pvpers so dodging is less of an issue.

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You need to find ways to bring pve players into pvp. Other servers do this by releasing the upgraded gear early, reducing the respec cost, etc. You could also do pvp events that reward players with flasks or other consumables. The server doesn't have to be 100% blizzlike if the majority of players are happy so just get creative.

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3 hours ago, Crohns said:

Please allow AV queue to persist in other battlegrounds; otherwise, there will never be another AV. It's been "Average wait time: Unavailable" since the change.

I second this.

3 hours ago, Crohns said:

And I don't think there is any way to completely eliminate dodging. Even with the fix, our horde premade was playing empty games after the first couple of wins. The server should just focus on ways to increase the number of active pvpers so dodging is less of an issue.

This is because as I said earlier, you have to remove the other queue when the first pop, otherwise two BGs starts but you join only one. At the moment both premades queue both BGs the one join AB and the other WSG.

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6 hours ago, WobLight said:

This is because as I said earlier, you have to remove the other queue when the first pop, otherwise two BGs starts but you join only one. At the moment both premades queue both BGs the one join AB and the other WSG.

Ya that would probably work better than the current fix.

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You should be able to queue for all BG's at once, but if you get a WSG pop the AB queue should be automatically left upon accepting the pop (and vice versa). Tho the AV queue should still be going. You shouldn't get deserter for leaving from AB/WSG to AV, just because 50% of the people inside that AB/WSG game will most likely join the AV.

And also the PvP-gear should be upgraded sooner then 1.11.

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Rain told me he would look into the AV situation. Don't know how long that is going to take though since it has already been over a week with no AV.

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I would actually like to see the addition of a queue system for battlegrounds which you could use a command like ".queue AV" to queue up while not having to be in the major city. I know this idea isn't Blizzlike but due to the population on this server, I feel like it would actually be beneficial to the players who do want to PvP at all levels.

But with the addition of that queueing system It would most likely be used by some players looking for a quick free teleport to the major city. So to discourage players from doing that I would suggest to have it set to where you are returned to the position that you were, when the battle ground first started. 

This is just my suggestion, and I'm sure there is other downsides to this that I didn't mention. But over all I think it would be a good change.

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The biggest issue i see with PVP as it stands right now is the fact that it is impossible to get a pop in AV and if it pops, the BG shuts down in less then 10 minutes due to people dropping out or not enough players joining.

My suggestion to battle this is lower the ammount of people needed for Alterac Valley to pop, to not shut down and make it so that you can keep your Queue inside other battlegrounds.

I also like the idea to roll out the 1.11 changes earlier to combat the fact that people don't even want the pvp gear to begin with.

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