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Eris

Call to Arms: Improving PvP!

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Greetings beloved community!

Recent discussions about PvP activity has moved us to tackle the issues at hand, and we’re ready to have a broader discussion about the steps we can take improve the experience.

Having grown into an ongoing internal subject, we’re looking to reach solutions with you our community, and make Nighthaven a more attractive option for potentially new PvP players.

To begin by responding to proposals by Gnog.
https://forum.elysium-project.org/topic/64073-ideas-to-improve-pvp-on-nighthaven/

  • Talent respecing is an important gold sink in the game, but the cost is definitely too punishing. There should be a reason for you to choose your talents wisely and stick with them, but in a game where there’s different power builds for PvP and PvE gameplay, the gold sink quickly becomes an overburdening obstacle that ruins your fun if you want to enjoy both aspects of the game when you want to, and that’s where it becomes a bad game design.
    This is definitely something we’re considering reducing for the health of the game and your fun.
     
  • We can make battlegrounds more accessible, but we can’t over-incentivize doing battlegrounds over other activities either. Queuing from anywhere in the world has an impact upon the world, where World PvP interactions are affected when someone suddenly vanishes into thin air.
    While we could put in place systems like where you couldn’t join if you’ve been in combat for the last minute, it just ends up a system filled with restrictions, but a middle ground would be where you could queue from a rested area (Inns, etc).
     
  • When it comes to making PvP and BG reputation gear easier to acquire, the upcoming patch 1.7 releasing tomorrow brings BG weekends.
     
  • Reworking the matchmaking system, where it favors to pitch premade against premade, and pug vs pug will absolutely improve the battleground experience, making it more fair and fun for everyone. However, it may take some time before we might get around to work and implement that.

We thank you all, the feedback is invaluable as it’s that which allows us to improve, and we’re looking forward to move this dialogue further with you our community.

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Honestly, I wouldn't mind if the price for respecing was lowered but so it keeps that "think before you do it" spirit.

I'm personally against battlegrounds period, they can potentially ruin World PVP if people get into it too much. And no it's not the same; Open World PVP has other implications.

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If we can make it to where losses still get honor that would really help. I also agree with lowering respect costs, I think it would allow players to have fun when they are not raiding.

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Decrease the price for respeccing, release the improved pvp gear sets, initialize premade vs premade priority, create more server pvp events, etc.

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Hi Admins,  Thank you for responding to the post.  I do hope you can make some changes to the current system.  One big thing, which was not addressed in the announcement, is the rampant queue dodging.  When Horde rankers dodge the best Alliance premades, the Horde rankers will always play against pugs on Alliance, and, because the Horde rankers dodged the Alliance premade game, the Horde puggers will get filled into that game and always face the Alliance premades.  This means that, if you do not dodge, you will always go against a premade--on both sides.  This is the root of the discouragement and non-participation we are seeing among more 'casual' PvPers on Nighthaven.  Please implement something to deter people from dodging queues.  A few ideas are:

-- give the deserter debuff whenever someone ignores/hides/doesn't accept a BG pop

-- make the deserter debuff increase in severity each time someone gets it.  the first deserter is 15min, then 30min, then 1hr, then 2hrs, and so on.  The timer can reset after 48 or so hours without a deserter.

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4 minutes ago, Encryptedgg said:

If we can make it to where losses still get honor that would really help. I also agree with lowering respect costs, I think it would allow players to have fun when they are not raiding.

then u just invite abuse and afkers. because why not? u get honor for losing and its probably faster than even trying...

also general comment: prem vs prem prio queue wont solve a thing. they just go back to solo queuing to get into same game like before for faster honor. the prems arent pvping they are ranking theres a big diff.

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6 minutes ago, Gnog said:

Hi Admins,  Thank you for responding to the post.  I do hope you can make some changes to the current system.  One big thing, which was not addressed in the announcement, is the rampant queue dodging.  When Horde rankers dodge the best Alliance premades, the Horde rankers will always play against pugs on Alliance, and, because the Horde rankers dodged the Alliance premade game, the Horde puggers will get filled into that game and always face the Alliance premades.  This means that, if you do not dodge, you will always go against a premade--on both sides.  This is the root of the discouragement and non-participation we are seeing among more 'casual' PvPers on Nighthaven.  Please implement something to deter people from dodging queues.  A few ideas are:

-- give the deserter debuff whenever someone ignores/hides/doesn't accept a BG pop

-- make the deserter debuff increase in severity each time someone gets it.  the first deserter is 15min, then 30min, then 1hr, then 2hrs, and so on.  The timer can reset after 48 or so hours without a deserter.

First off some players aren't dodging them and are competing capping consistently and even winning, the fact the alliance disband after one loss cause horde premades to be impossible, we win 2 games then get put in 4 hour queues because 0 alliance are willing to pug a bg due to the constant overwhelming fear of a loss.

Let me ask you as an alliance player how often do you pug wsg?

also the way deserter should be implemented is you receive deserter after dropping a queue x amount of time that resets after 48 hrs or something not simply for afking out of games.

Edited by mwdruid

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1 minute ago, mwdruid said:

First off some players aren't dodging them and are competing capping consistently and even winning, the fact the alliance disband after one loss cause horde premades to be impossible, we win 2 games then get put in 4 hour queues because 0 alliance are willing to pug a bg due to the constant overwhelming fear of a loss.

Let me ask you as an alliance player how often do you pug wsg?

In last 2 weeks of wsg pugs I only met high ranking horde but TWO times. Almost every game is a 5 ally pug vs 4 or 5 high ranking horde, often even with pots and consumable ready. Most of games would end in 5 min but horde often manage to win the game earlier. Very rarely a game have more than 6 players alliance side. Other than setting some kind of deserter penalty for dodging (that would also prevent one faction to queue w/o joining in the other faction just to make the queue pop), I would also set a minimum of 10 players for wsg to start, not 5 (but still 5 for the game to disband). It's not only the fact to always meet horde premades to discourage pugs, it's also that most of games aren't full and that advantage high rankers even more.

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19 minutes ago, mwdruid said:

First off some players aren't dodging them and are competing capping consistently and even winning, the fact the alliance disband after one loss cause horde premades to be impossible, we win 2 games then get put in 4 hour queues because 0 alliance are willing to pug a bg due to the constant overwhelming fear of a loss.

Let me ask you as an alliance player how often do you pug wsg?

also the way deserter should be implemented is you receive deserter after dropping a queue x amount of time that resets after 48 hrs or something not simply for afking out of games.

I play on the horde side, mwdruid, and I have been part of plenty of horde premades that beat alliance premades, including the good ones. I have seen how the alliance premades stop queueing when they start losing. The point of pushing for changes here is that, in my view, a healthy PvP scene is good for the server overall. Unfortunately, right now, the scene is not good because of rampant queue dodging (and a few other things, like prohibitively expensive respecs). Unless the queue dodging is addressed, we will continue to see the current cycle play out each week, with horde rankers dodging Rosen/Lurp/Auracius/etc. to smash pugs, and horde puggers getting dumped into the games against those same premades. This can be improved by preventing the dodges. 

Edit:  To put a finer point on it, please see WobLight's post above.  There is an Alliance player who is seeing the consequences of horde dodging.  Why would WobLight continue to queue in this situation? 

Your idea ("also the way deserter should be implemented is you receive deserter after dropping a queue x amount of time that resets after 48 hrs or something not simply for afking out of games") would be fine, as long as the deserter debuff is applied after the 2nd or 3rd queue-dodge. 

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I would definitely like to see a respec cost, reduction.  I know its considered a gold dump, but really the only people that regularly respec are those with crazy amounts of cash in the first place, the rest of can't afford it so just stick with one spec.

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It would also be good to fix up some bugs in AV (aside the always debated backdoor and likes) most events are buggy, which favors stalls.

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Hi, I considere some flight masters and some PvP npc are not responding as they should. They not attack opposite faction. You can easily get ganked in your own territory with your OWN npcs around just looking. I think you should change it for they to attack opposite faction, it would improve world PvP. Thanks.

Chirusa, Night Elf Hunter.

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would be awesome with us being able to queue from rested places. Just add a BG Npc in Inns we can queue from. Pls make him attackable

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A harsh deserter buff for not joining the BG (dodging) - 1 hour Duration, Does not decrease while offline, Reduces all stats by 75%.

Reduced respec cost - Or perhaps a new item, purchasable with honor/tokens that allows one to respec? (not sure if this is possible, so likely a reduced cost).

5 player parties maximum for group que - Maximum of 1 5 man group per team in each BG?

If no on the first suggestion, then perhaps a penalty similar to dishonorable kills for dodging, or even a straight reduction in weekly HK count and or honor. Or if really hardcore, both the first suggestion and this one together.

I think changing gear rewards would be too much.

I also don't agree with que from world.

Edited by Vekst

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Lowering respec costs needs to happen yesterday, blue pvp gear imo should also be updated, but I don’t think it’s as important as respec costs.

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Free respect option would be great. I've spent so much respecting it's ridiculous now.

 
Not sure if this applies here but the world PvP issue (especially STV) is getting annoying with high level gankers. Can players get a buff for killing players half their lvl or something? It's getting a bit silly now, level 60s are running around killing lowbies (level 29/30) for no apparent reason. Can they get dishonor or something for killing enemy players 20 levels lower? This would definitely stop higher level players from entering zones like this. The lowbies could attack and get honour but the higher levels would get dishonor or some type or reduced stat buff.
 
With no option to turn off PvP, leveling in certain areas can be so annoying, not to mention time consuming. 

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Yeah, open world PvP 80% of the time seems to be no more than being ganked by a player with his big daddy lvl 60 with him.  I understand its Blizzards fault for the design flaw, but seriously - I can get dishonour for killing a stupid grey NPC, but high levels can go ruin a lowbie players day without dishonour?

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2 hours ago, asteldian said:

Yeah, open world PvP 80% of the time seems to be no more than being ganked by a player with his big daddy lvl 60 with him.  I understand its Blizzards fault for the design flaw, but seriously - I can get dishonour for killing a stupid grey NPC, but high levels can go ruin a lowbie players day without dishonour?

Dishonorable kills were disabled only for patches 1.2 — 1.5, now you should always get DK from killing lowbies.

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1 minute ago, Shenna said:

Dishonorable kills were disabled only for patches 1.2 — 1.5, now you should always get DK from killing lowbies.

He meant to give dishonorable kill for killing low level players. Dishonorable kills were meant to prevent players from killing quest givers though.

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1 minute ago, WobLight said:

He meant to give dishonorable kill for killing low level players. Dishonorable kills were meant to prevent players from killing quest givers though.

Oh, sorry. I agree tho, it is a flaw but not much we can do :)

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2 hours ago, Shenna said:

Oh, sorry. I agree tho, it is a flaw but not much we can do :)

What!?!? There's a lot you an do.

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Recently there was a day where AV did not have a minimum requirement for players, and the game continued without ending with about 15 players on each side. As someone who does not often play during the servers peak hours, this was helpful as it allowed me to gain some reputation and honor, even if we were not able to progress through the PvE aspect of the BG. Perhaps you would consider reducing the minimum players required for an AV to start, and end prematurely, as it would help the minority of the population that does not play during times when there are enough other players for a full group.

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The updated gear sets would bring more pve players into pvp which would increase the pool each week and help everyone out.

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TLDR:

1) respecc cost at 25g.

2) Don't implement queue'ing from around the world. It's fine as it is.

3) Give deserter if you drop a queue and make it impossible to queue both WSG and AB simultaneously.

4) Update PvP gear in 1.9 instead of 1.11 and release gear gained through rep with a BG-faction now. There is no reason not to release it now and 1.11 was too late.

Hey there. A bit about myself. I'm alliance, rank 13 and played almost purely on premades. I'm done ranking and from now on will purely play PvP to help out friends / have some fun so I don't have any personal "ranking" interest in the end result of this discussion. I am of course interested in the overall well being of the PvP-scene on the server since it's in my opinion important and it keeps a server alive.

Vanilla PvP isn't fair. It involves engineering gadgets, consumables and cheap tricks. Anything goes (without breaking server rules ofc).
World PvP isn't fair. You kill one guy who was on low life only to be ganked by his 4 friends 1 minute later. It's not fair and it's not supposed to be fair. I think this is important to keep in mind when designing server structures around server PvP. I don't think it's a big problem that premades group up and smash less organized players. It's not fair and it ain't supposed to be.

To address the suggestions in the OP suggestions:
 

1) respecc cost:

Only having 1 talent specc and having some solidity to your character is part of Vanilla. I don't think talent respec costs should be lowered too low. However a cap of 25g seems in order. 50g was - in my opinion - too high in vanilla and still is too high today. I would prefer not to see it go lower than 25g though. I don't like it that characters constantly swap between speccs / setups / talents. Part of the server PvP community is to know which of the priests are shadow and holy. Which of the Paladins are Ret and which are holy. If the respecc cost goes too low (for instance 5 or 10g as often suggested) I think it will diminish the PvP-community. But yes. Lower it to 25g.

2) Queue'ing from around the world.

This suggestion will make little difference. Even when you could only queue from Ashenvale (or barrens if you were horde) you could always have someone else queue you up as a group. It won't really make a big difference in terms of accessibility if you want to PvP. It does however make it easier to use battlegrounds as an escape from World PvP or ganking which I don't like.

3) reworking queue matching system.

Wrong approach to solving the problem in my humble opinion. Premades - for the most part - farm honour. If you change up the system the players will just work around it. Rankers will start solo queue'ing at the same time to end up in the same game with group queue. Just as we did with AV and WSG when it was initially released with 4 man queue.

What should be done is the following:

A) You should not be able to queue WSG and AB at the same time. You shouldn't be allowed to queue AB while in WSG and visa versa either.

B) You should get 15 min deserter for dropping the queue.

What will this achieve?

It will combat queue-dodging which will become even more rampant now premades have two bg's for honorfarming (I don't really include AV in this category).

Say you have 2 premades - 1 on horde and one on alliance. If they both queue WSG and AB - which they will if they are farming honor - what will happen is that they will open up games for each other to join. The strongest premade will take the highest honor-per-hour option (usually AB) and end up in a premade vs pug (usually 15 vs few) and get an easy 5-cap win while the other premade will get an easy 3-0 in WSG.

It isn't coordinated and it isn't purposely win trading but the result is the same.

This server population isn't big enough to support a "premade vs. premade" queue priority system but if the two suggestions above are implemented it will force premades to face each other on a regular basis and give a better experience for everyone involved.

4) Update PvP Gear Earlier than 1.11.

To give an incentive for players to engage in PvP I think the server staff should make some changes when it comes to PvP-gear update compared to how Blizzard did it back in when WoW first came out. Overall I think the staff should really consider this option because it's a positive incentive for players to seek out PvP instead of a punishing one which is how I view all the attempts in trying to shut down premades.

First of all release all the rep items from BG's. The legging items from WSG are already semi-outdated and when they will not be used by anyone when they are finally released. The ring from AV is also useful for new players who just got into the PvP scene. There is no reason why these items were released as late to the game as they were.

Second update the PvP-armor sets and implement the R14 weapons / offhands that hasn't been implemented yet at 1.9 instead of 1.11. The original 1.11 update was way too late and I think everyone who compares items from PvP with items from PvE at 1.11 can see this. Even if you don't clear content in Naxxramas the PvP gear is still (for the most part) just about on par with what you get from raiding in AQ. Bear in mind this is comparing R12,13 and 14 gear with AQ gear.

Also keep in mind the gear is on par with AQ (and by the later stages of AQ subpar) which means it's not like we are giving a massive advantage to players with high ranking gear.

Finally the blue set from R7-10 will be of increased value for both "casual" mains or maybe people who want an alt with some decent gear.

Keeping this update at 1.11 will soon make ranking utterly useless which will be very harmful to the PvP-scene.

Edited by Frankenberry

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