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I agree with OP. You didn't have to do it before release, when someone can kill 3 bosses in MC with 20 people not all level 60 you know you have a problem. Increasing the damage the bosses do or trash, isn't difficult and from a team that has 7 years experience with wow emulation, one would have thought a Blizzlike server wouldn't turn out to be a circus like all other vanilla servers seems to be. Nostalrius is probably the only server that actually had dungeons and raids very similar to blizzlike. What reasons do someone have to play on Elysium if it's all the same? Nostalrius had such a high playerbase because it was so different from everyone else.

 

Make an example of them instead of being like everyone else.

I don't disagree that 10 year old content isn't a gauntlet of challenges. But if you're using Goon Squad as an example, for being able to 20 man first 3 bosses; that's a mistake.

 

A large portion of goon squad are members of another Horde guild from Nost pve called Deja Vu and having raided with them for the entire portion of Nost pve's up-time; it's not hard to believe they can achieve that.

They know all the tricks to farming a full fire resistance set and +healing gear for their fresh 60s. I wouldn't be surprised if their tanks were geared with 200+ FR sets and healers with over 200+ Healing sets each before even hitting 60. Meaning even if they did bring some non-60s to their MC raid; they were geared better than most 60s. And as long as you farmed necessary consumables, you can easily cheese those first 3 bosses.

 

Like I said I don't disagree with you on your points, but referring to the 20 ppl who downed the first 3 bosses in mc40 as an example for why current content is "not difficult" is a bad one.

Edited by mrcer

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Doesn't matter what guild they're from, Nostalrius was good but it could have been better. Just like everything else can have improvements. It's the fact that they said to provide a Blizzlike experience on Elysium, it doesn't matter if you know how the encounter works. If you've played World of Warcraft long enough, even if you know the encounter you cannot go in there with half a raid and players who hasn't reached the level the raid was set out to be and kill three bosses within an hour of each other. 

 

Do you see how many users are online on the Russian realm? It's dead, they probably log on and do the raids now and then but it's so easy it's not enjoyable anymore. There is simply no fun raiding anymore when there is no challenge. When people know there is no challenge, what reason do they have to play? Do you think Nostalrius had 10,000 online users on one realm because they all thought it's like every other server? 

 

Valkyrie developers claim 7 years experience in emulation, they have a Russian realm from before, how can they not have thoroughly planned things before something like this was possible? Elysium will turn out exactly like the Russian realm once someone else comes by and say to provide a better "Blizzlike" experience. That's of course, unless the developers really do something to provide a challenge and set themselves out to do things differently than other servers. Because even Kronos was a roll, both Elysium and Kronos are the same you have no reason to chose one server over another. 

 

I'd suggest they release the bosses gradually to make sure they provide a challenge. Otherwise it's very likely Molten Core will be done by end of the month and considering there isn't much competition, they would be fully ready for the next set of release while the competition has no chance to catch up.

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I think you should not compare top players and average ones.

It you make original instance enough challenging for top player, then average player will suffer some problems with it.

 

I can hardly believe that significant portion of 10000 players is top one. Over 9000 players are casual ones, they do not want the thing you proposing. And they probably will never get to forum to stop your propaganda of difficulty.

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Top Players? I saw the stream and there is nothing top about them already knowing how the encounter works. Doesn't matter if you are a Pro, average or beginner they all have the same chance. Because nowadays knowledge is available on the internet. 

 

So if they didn't want it they shouldn't say that Elysium is "Blizzlike" because it isn't. 

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1- Instead of arguing why they did the content so much easy , you should start investigate how NPC and Bosses are working currently in server and how they suppose to work like they did in Retail.

(There are so many bugs and wrong working stuffs in private servers) but nobody dare to report the "Beneficial" ones and instead they just argue.

 

2 - Molten Core for 1.12 was always Joke and mostly Tank and Spank , 1.12 Was made for only and only Naxxramass (it won't be joke there).

 

3 - Min/Maxer and Speedrunners will always be there , they can always abuse certain bug without even reporting etc.

 

4 - Kronos have beneficial bug "glancing blow doesn't work" , so you end up with Melees doing there nearly 30% more DPS.

 

5 - Russian is probably dead server , but that is because it is only Russians oriented instead of International.

 

6 - I'd agree on giving next Raid released after next 50 or 100 "End Boss" Kills.

 

/Kind regards by Killerduki

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"Average player" is an ambiguous term. The average vanilla player is far more knowledgeable now. It's not 1% now, definitely not even 10%, but far more.

It's been 12 years.

 

Expecting newbie vanilla players to join Elysium and find a challenge in progression is also not realistic. Newbie vanilla WoW players are already experienced WoW players of some expansion, usually post-WotLK. Completely new WoW players will join retail, not private servers.

 

There is no logical argument to release a retail values in patch 1.12 talents, spells and gear on a new server in 2016. I made this argument already here.

 

FYI to Killerduki, Kronos fixed glancing blows weeks ago.

 

Edit: Addition.

 

Only thing gating people from clearing Elysium raid content is literally people not being 60, regardless of gear as it hardly matters with these raid values. Seeing the report of the first MC, it seems not having enough 60's is not the gate, but not having enough level 55-57+ players. 

Edited by Walgrave

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"Average player" is an ambiguous term. The average vanilla player is far more knowledgeable now. It's not 1% now, definitely not even 10%, but far more.

It's been 12 years.

 

Expecting newbie vanilla players to join Elysium and find a challenge in progression is also not realistic. Newbie vanilla WoW players are already experienced WoW players of some expansion, usually post-WotLK. Completely new WoW players will join retail, not private servers.

 

There is no logical argument to release a retail values in patch 1.12 talents, spells and gear on a new server in 2016. I made this argument already here.

 

FYI to Killerduki, Kronos fixed glancing blows weeks ago.

 

Edit: Addition.

 

Only thing gating people from clearing Elysium raid content is literally people not being 60, regardless of gear as it hardly matters with these raid values. Seeing the report of the first MC, it seems not having enough 60's is not the gate, but not having enough level 55-57+ players. 

 

There is no logical argument to release a retail values in patch 1.12 talents, spells and gear on a new server in 2016. I made this argument already here.

 

 

Ok find me server that will release Values and start from patch 1.1 (including Spells and Talents)

 

FYI to Killerduki, Kronos fixed glancing blows weeks ago.

 

 

Cleared everything and then fix ;) (Progress).

 

Seeing the report of the first MC, it seems not having enough 60's is not the gate, but not having enough level 55-57+ players.

 

 

Clearing MC with Preraid prepared people is easy and joke , but with "not enough 60's" tells me that MC (or all raids) Bosses/Mobs have so much bugs or working incorrect in server.

 

I Already gave example : https://elysium-project.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=21936&p=236731

 

Living Bomb — an effect that cannot be dispelled (It will be negated by Ice Block, Cloak of Shadows and Divine Shield, however). The bomb will explode in 10 seconds and cause 3200 damage to the target and those players in the immediate area (it can crit for 4800!). The target of the living bomb will also be flung straight up into the air and take falling damage upon landing. The Damage dealt by this is increased by the amount of +dmg gear a character has on.

 

 

I wonder how they can survive this using 57 level. (The underline text with the damage description + Fall Damage).

Edited by killerduki

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Killerduki has a point: what made Vanilla so special was the struggle.  And the feeling of joy and accomplishment in overcoming that struggle.

 

After saying that this issue is entirely up to you (Devs) in the end because it deviates from the original formula.

 

Nevertheless I believe that once we are positively sure that all scripts and abilities are used properly and we see content is cleared too easily, buffing slightly the damage output and hit points of MC and BWL mobs could be appropriate and beneficial.  I am oblivious to what happens on the coding/scripting side of things, but I am gonna go out on a limb and propose a flat 5% to 10% increase of HP and damage of all thrash mobs and bosses of MC and BWL (with the exception of particularly deadly abilities which could be looked into on a case by case basis, the same for World Bosses such as Kazzak, Azuregos and the Emerald Dragons). I'd leave AQ and Naxx out of this since they are buff enough as they are. 

 

After all like many others have said, we got talents and items which were released to make it possible to crack Naxxramas, which is on an entirely different league compared to the instances before it. This really does make previous content much easier to crack even disregarding the increased average skill level and over-abundant guides and strategies that can be found online.

 

So here you have it, no real substance behind this besides the willingness to keep the content challenging throughout the game.

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@Killerduki You do not understand what I'm asking for. Nobody is asking for hardcore boss buffs, or reverting spells/talents AND gear to patch 1.1. Some of us are saying PvE raid content should be buffed appropriately to negate the Patch 1.12 spell/talents (Naxx content). I'm not sure 5% or 10% dmg buff is the appropriate idea, but that is upto the devs. My suggestion which was rejected was reverting only the gear back to earlier patch. 

 

At the moment nothing is being done about it and you can see undergeared/underleveled/undermanned raids clearing endgame bosses with ease. Which basically means people will get bored and either raid log or perma quit or jump to a project which offers a better experience - in the long run it's all bad for Elysium player retention if nothing is done.

 

Personally I got to level 21 here and stopped - the leveling apart from pathfinding is great - but at 60 I do not see the point of gearing if the content doesn't require the gear

Edited by Walgrave

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At the moment nothing is being done about it and you can see undergeared/underleveled/undermanned raids clearing endgame bosses with ease. Which basically means people will get bored and either raid log or perma quit or jump to a project which offers a better experience - in the long run it's all bad for Elysium player retention if nothing is done.

 

What if they keep continue releasing Contents and go forward including Naxx?

 

How many servers have Released Naxx?

 

It will not make people bored if server keep continue releasing , because Naxx will make lot of problems progressing.

 

Currently my point was, start investigating bugs within raid because i believe there are many which makes raids even easier than they should. 

 

e.g baron geddon bomb+fall damage etc. (they just need to be discovered).

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In general, it is important to remember that not all players and guilds are equal. This discussion pops up regularly at every server and, more often than not, the people who agitate for buffing boss health or damage only use the most successful guilds as example, while usually disregarding the average or poorly performing guilds. It is true that 1.12.1 talents give players a significant boost in their capabilities and it is just as true that the game is very old and the mechanics of all encounters are well known. However, such facts do not take away the requirement for teamwork and learning the raid encounters via experience. One guild can speed run through MC in under an hour and this shocks the community into thinking that it must be completely undertuned, when that guild is completely overgeared, buffed to the max and each of their players is very skilled in what they do. At the same time, a new guild with little experience, not much gear and few if any world buffs, clears Molten Core in five hours after numerous wipes.


 


Now tell me - which experience is the "correct" one?


 


Obviously bugs need to be fixed, whether they are broken mechanics or wrong values for any attribute.


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This discussion pops up regularly at every server and, more often than not, the people who agitate for buffing boss health or damage only use the most successful guilds as example

 

This is another ambiguous argument. In retail, people did speed runs. That is not, nor are guilds using world buffs, a standard for the difficulty of a content. Those who use it as a baseline, and none have in this thread to my knowledge, are obviously asking for a Mythic level experience in vanilla, may I ask you, who asked for this? I'm stating the facts which you agree are true, that Elysium is using 1.12 (Naxx+) talents and gear for Molten Core progression. This, in essence, is a cheapened experience of progressing Molten Core. An emulation that gives only the faintest of tastes, if not just the fragrance, of what actual MC progression should be.

 

It takes teamwork for the most basic of tasks for the first time around. If Elysium was instant-60 or a high experience-rate server, that makes sense. It is to give a basic, fundamental experience of vanilla was like, than people can quit and move on to other things. Elysium, however, is a 1x server, it has implications that it will try to provide an original vanilla feeling, where people can spend hundreds of hours.   A cheapened progression experience, followed by weeks of farming mind-numbingly unchallenging content will burn people out. Lets remember, people gear up after first progression. Whether through MC itself or getting 1.12.1 tuned gear.

 

Personally I do not speed run content, nor do I join hardcore guilds. However, for players who have done numerous vanilla projects before and experienced a harder level of tuning in BWL particularly, we have far more positive experiences than on servers with "faceroll" content. A challenge helps form a tighter community due to the nature of tougher tasks bringing people together, through actually wiping in raids/pre-raid preparation (like grinding better pieces in 5 mans because it is needed for the better of the guild). A tighter community will stick together, it obviously helps with player retention. I can only imagine the horror of raider turnover rate on Elysium with absolutely undertuned content compared to player power.

 

People may use Nost as an example, but as a once RL/MT there of an above-average raiding guild, it was thoroughly disappointing in its tuning of content. It was firstly fun in Patch 1.4, because of item stats being less optimal. Elysium does not have this for its favor. Nost also had stealth buffed Broodlord, Chrom & Nefarian globalling full T2 tanks, if not fully consumed. It made things better, the danger of dying and wiping in raids was there, and of course player retention was there. Tanks had to be defensive for these fights in regular guilds, forcing DPS to manage threat and deal lower damage, extending the overall combat time and experience.  

 

If not for Molten Core, I request you to discuss this for Blackwing Lair release. Player retention at level 60 has to be an important enough topic to actually do something about the most popular activity at level 60 - which is to raid. The endgame content and the community that it brings together is the only reason I play vanilla. I would argue that I'm not the only one. 

 

Edit: Grammar

Edited by Walgrave

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In retail, people did speed runs.

 

 

Clearly you never played Vanilla Retail.

 

It was Impossible for anyone to think about this things back in 2005/2006.

 

First time Speedruns came out with late (last patches) TBC and mainly people did Speedruns to (Karazhan) .

Edited by killerduki

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The Axemen speedruns were famous, there was a whole competitive scene for it in vanilla. Their 2nd video I believe was the fastest MC then. 

 

Anyways bumping my earlier comment for visibility:-

 

Quote

This discussion pops up regularly at every server and, more often than not, the people who agitate for buffing boss health or damage only use the most successful guilds as example

 

This is another ambiguous argument. In retail, people did speed runs. That is not, nor are guilds using world buffs, a standard for the difficulty of a content. Those who use it as a baseline, and none have in this thread to my knowledge, are obviously asking for a Mythic level experience in vanilla, may I ask you, who asked for this? I'm stating the facts which you agree are true, that Elysium is using 1.12 (Naxx+) talents and gear for Molten Core progression. This, in essence, is a cheapened experience of progressing Molten Core. An emulation that gives only the faintest of tastes, if not just the fragrance, of what actual MC progression should be.

 

It takes teamwork for the most basic of tasks for the first time around. If Elysium was instant-60 or a high experience-rate server, that makes sense. It is to give a basic, fundamental experience of vanilla was like, than people can quit and move on to other things. Elysium, however, is a 1x server, it has implications that it will try to provide an original vanilla feeling, where people can spend hundreds of hours.   A cheapened progression experience, followed by weeks of farming mind-numbingly unchallenging content will burn people out. Lets remember, people gear up after first progression. Whether through MC itself or getting 1.12.1 tuned gear.

 

Personally I do not speed run content, nor do I join hardcore guilds. However, for players who have done numerous vanilla projects before and experienced a harder level of tuning in BWL particularly, we have far more positive experiences than on servers with "faceroll" content. A challenge helps form a tighter community due to the nature of tougher tasks bringing people together, through actually wiping in raids/pre-raid preparation (like grinding better pieces in 5 mans because it is needed for the better of the guild). A tighter community will stick together, it obviously helps with player retention. I can only imagine the horror of raider turnover rate on Elysium with absolutely undertuned content compared to player power.

 

People may use Nost as an example, but as a once RL/MT there of an above-average raiding guild, it was thoroughly disappointing in its tuning of content. It was firstly fun in Patch 1.4, because of item stats being less optimal. Elysium does not have this for its favor. Nost also had stealth buffed Broodlord, Chrom & Nefarian globalling full T2 tanks, if not fully consumed. It made things better, the danger of dying and wiping in raids was there, and of course player retention was there. Tanks had to be defensive for these fights in regular guilds, forcing DPS to manage threat and deal lower damage, extending the overall combat time and experience.  

 

If not for Molten Core, I request you to discuss this for Blackwing Lair release. Player retention at level 60 has to be an important enough topic to actually do something about the most popular activity at level 60 - which is to raid. The endgame content and the community that it brings together is the only reason I play vanilla. I would argue that I'm not the only one. 

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I think you double posted Walgrave, anyway I totally share your point of view and hope this will get the attention of the devs (once they are done with the bugfixing :P).

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It's an issue of design and intent. What is the server's priority? Is it to emulate a blizzard server as close as possible, or provide the design intent that blizzard had as close as possible?

 

The best metric for this is what in game design is called the average test case. What's an average raid going to be able to accomplish in average gear with average skill? Are they going to be able to faceroll molten core in modest dungeon gear? If so, I'd argue you have a problem on your hands, since the challenge is removed. You've separated yourself from what the game is under the banner of appealing to a blizzlike stat spread, and in my opinion that's a mistake. We're playing a game, and the game was not released with 1.12 talents/gear, so you can't just ignore the effects it has down the line. Some have pointed out that this is because 1.12 talents/gear were itemized in order to cater to Naxxrammas, and that's fine. You have the talents/gear you got. But it needs to be taken into consideration.

 

So what're the solutions? I'm going to pull the famous quote that says "novices discuss tactics, experts discuss logistics." You have to consider that even if this were to be fixed (I can only hope it does get fixed if in fact there is a balance issue) the logistics of applying a fix.

 

You can revert talents. Logistically extremely difficult, since the old values have to be datamined, all characters need to retroactively work with them, and they need to all be tested and approved before deployment. Not to mention a lot of people will be upset that their builds have changed entirely. This also effects solution 2, which is...

 

Revert the gear. Some players have pointed out why this is a problem, since gear was upgraded in tandem with talents, and one has to come with the other. Again, retroactive problems, and is logistically in my opinion not an option. That leaves...

 

Option 3, which is the soundest and logistically easiest in my opinion: Mess with the encounters a little. Buff some HP here, a bit of damage there. If it's too hard, scale it back a bit. The amount of work needed to modify these values is so much simpler (and probably more elegant in the long run) than attempting to balance in the other direction.

 

For all intents and purposes, I'd say assume you're sticking with 1.12 gear and talents. So what can we do to make the raids feel like a challenge again?

 

EDIT: I'd also like to point out that buffing encounters to be difficult and then scaling them back is not un-blizzlike. If you recall, they've done this plenty in the past, notably with things like ICC and then slowly make the encounters easier by providing a buff. Really this is them just masking the fact that they're not sure if things are too hard for the average raid, while also letting the less geared groups progress a little more over time. ;)

Edited by DSDistorted

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You seem to be missing an option here. No worries - I'll repeat.

Go there with weaker gear and/or less people.

Still too easy? Use even less gear and people.

Unless, of course, the whole point is that the admins should do everything for you.

If you want the game changed, change it yourself and for yourself - not for the whole playerbase.

If you're right and that's what the majority wants, then finding people to do that with should not be that hard. Especially coz you need less that way.

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Sure, you can go there with less gear and less people, but that's not really a solution to the problem being addressed. Telling the player base to handicap themselves and try really hard to pretend it's all the same isn't exactly honest development practice, especially in a non-singleplayer game. On top of which, finding a community to do that would be difficult enough as it is with a population much larger than that of a single private servers'.

 

You say change the game for yourself but not the whole playerbase, but if the problem affects the entire playerbase, shouldn't they all be subject to the same conditions?

 

This isn't about laziness. This isn't about 'the admins need to do everything for us'. It's a specific tuning problem that exists because of the unique problem of a patch not mixing well with a release schedule. Shouldn't we not discuss some simple ways to tune it back to a blizzardlike feel? Isn't that the whole point of this? Telling people they need to fix it themselves seems to me to be the lazy solution. Fortunately I'm not one for burying my head in the sand. ;)

Edited by DSDistorted

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Sure, you can go there with less gear and less people, but that's not really a solution to the problem being addressed.

But it is.

 

Telling the player base to handicap themselves and try really hard to pretend it's all the same isn't exactly honest development practice, especially in a non-singleplayer game.

Just one as good as telling developers to change the game for you. Especially a non-singleplayer game.

 

On top of which, finding a community to do that would be difficult enough as it is with a population much larger than that of a single private servers'.

I did that back at Valkyrie with 1/5 Elysium's online. Did you even try?

 

You say change the game for yourself but not the whole playerbase, but if the problem affects the entire playerbase, shouldn't they all be subject to the same conditions?

Different people want different things. So there is the status quo called "Blizzlike" to not change it in favour of the one currently speaking loud party.

 

Shouldn't we not discuss some simple ways to tune it back to a blizzardlike feel? Isn't that the whole point of this? Telling people they need to fix it themselves seems to me to be the lazy solution. Fortunately I'm not one for burying my head in the sand. ;)

We are discussing - I just gave you the simplest way to tune it back to a "blizzardlike feel", but you keep discarding it for some reason.

For now the lazy one is you - not burying your head in the sand, but not doing anything but talking either.

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We just have a difference of opinion then. I just envision a server where everyone progresses against more difficult content similar to how it was in retail. That includes people outside my bubble. I see it easier to tune the encounters to be harder, you see it easier to tune the bubble to account for the easy stats.

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 I was under the impression that "progressive vanilla" implied that in order to down bosses you needed a full raid of level 60s in appropriate gear and enchants.

 

If the only raids out are Molten Core and Onyxia then there should be guilds that are mid-way through molten core, yet it seems that any guild that can field a raid of even 20 can clear it. There is no point in being a "progressive" server if the population itself does not struggle to progress, it is simply a "staged release" gimmick, and i'd be fine with that - but be honest about what it is. If BWL is tuned to the same "spec" that MC is then the only real danger of raid wiping is going to be shadowflame from lack of ony cloaks, but since you don't need to even field a full raid of 40 it wouldn't last long.

 

It seems there are two camps as mentioned before - people who want "blizzlike" numbers for 1.12, and people who believed that a progressive server was going to give the "vanilla experience" regardless of client version.

 

Personally, i agree that the best balance would be a blizzlike implementation of player abilities native to the client (1.12) and adjusting boss hitpoints and damage output to match. But, i came here to get away from welfare epics and "easy normal mode" raiding that has ruined retail wow for me.

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