Bezawit 0 Report post Posted December 9, 2016 (edited) You're looking at realm players with him in his pvp gear?? Do you seriously believe he wore full pvp gear on his Nef log!? I cant even..... I'm done lol http://armory.twinstar.cz/character-sheet.xml?r=Kronos&cn=Livmoor Edited December 9, 2016 by Bezawit 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Phnom 1 Report post Posted December 9, 2016 I'm internally screaming over all this. I'm so amazed. So Killerduki, do you see him in that PVP gear on the DPS chart? Because he might aswell be naked in that fight and thus have less intellect than you claim. Please prove me wrong!Have you got any higher education btw, Dorki?? Because I find your math flawless @ Killerduki 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
killerduki 54 Report post Posted December 10, 2016 (edited) Have you got any higher education btw, Dorki?? Because I find your math flawless @ Killerduki Still nobody came out to give any proper math , neither proper formula. Yet they talk about my Formula and Math being wrong while 90% of their comments are Insulting,Bashing,Derailing,Trolling only because they was proven wrong even by their own Spread Sheet. I am sorry but your comment is irrelevant unless you or anyone come with proper evidence. The only one that came out with something was Cryofsorrow but his theory was irrelevant due the fact where he was basing Intellect on "Infinite Mana" which is incorrect since something like that doesn't exist neither in WoW code , neither in World of Warcraft (except Vaelstraz), nobody in game have "Infinite Mana" (retail that way only) . /Kind regards Killerduki Edited December 10, 2016 by killerduki 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
killerduki 54 Report post Posted December 10, 2016 (edited) 15. In Combat experiment for fight with equal Intellect and Spell Damage. We will try to throw some different kind of theory explanation where we will compare 230 Intellect with 230 Spell Damage including Mana regeneration , duration of fight and Damage Done/DPS output for that (non cherry pick stats where all stats are calculated at once). 230 IntellectVS230 Spell DamageAccording To :5.Maximum DPS over 25.5 and 51 seconds : 1.5 Second Mind Blast 350 Mana 672 Damage - Shadow Word Pain 470 Mana , 3 Second Mind Flay 205 Mana 2 Tick 391 Damage , 4.5 Second Shadow Word: Pain tick 195 (1),5 Second Mind Flay 205 Mana 2 Tick 402 Damage , 7.5 Second Shadow Word: Pain 201 (2), 8.5 Second Mind Blast 350 Mana 753 Damage - Mind Flay 205 Mana 3 tick 618 Damage , 10.5 Second Shadow Word: Pain 206 Damage (3) , 13 Second Mind Blast 350 Mana 773 Damage - Mind Flay 3 tick 205 Mana 618 Damage, 13.5 Second Shadow Word: Pain 206 Damage (4),16.5 Second Shadow Word: Pain 206 Damage (5),17.5 Second Mind Blast 350 Mana 773 Damage - Mind Flay 3 tick 205 Mana 618 Damage, 19.5 Second Shadow Word: Pain 206 Damage (6), 22 Second Mind Blast 350 Mana 773 Damage - Mind Flay 3 tick 205 Mana 618 Damage , 22.5 Second Shadow Word: Pain 206 Damage (7), 25.5 Second Shadow Word: Pain 206 Damage (8) Total casts/ticks: 5x Mind Blast Cast, 1x Shadow Word: Pain Cast, 6x Mind Flay Cast 16 Ticks (2x 2 Tick , 4x 4 Tick). Mana Wasted: 1750 Mana Mind Blast , 470 Mana Shadow Word: Pain , 1230 Mana Mind Flay. 3450 Mana Total.Total Damage over 25.5 Second: 8641Mind Blast : 3744 DamageShadow Word: Pain : 1632 DamageMind Flay : 3265 Damage 230 Intellect = 3450 Mana = 8641 Damage / 25.5 = 338.86 DPS over 25.5 SecondsAccording To :4.Spell Damage Coefficient : Improved Shadow Word: Pain: 133% (16.67% per tick)Mind Blast: 43%Mind Flay: 45% (15% per tick) 230 Spell Damage = 20.55 DPS by Mind Blast with Bonuses , 50.18 DPS by Mind Flay with Bonuses , 18.54 DPS by Shadow Word: Pain.Total DPS by 230 Spell Damage = 89.27 DPS over X Seconds.If the fight is 51 Seconds this will result into :230 Intellect = 8641 / 51 = 169.43 DPS over 51 Seconds.230 Spell Damage = 89.27 DPS over 51 Seconds.If the fight is 102 Seconds this will result into :230 Intellect = 8641 / 105 = 85.55 DPSover 102 Seconds.230 Spell Damage = 89.27 DPS over 102 Seconds but since you will OOM at 87.5 Seconds then it will result in 7811 Damage / 102 = 76.57 DPS over 102 Seconds.We go that Spell Damage value since over 102 Seconds you will have to waste 13800 Mana.This will result to : 2956 Base Mana + 3450 Mana from Intellect + 3752 Maximum Consumes Mana =10 158 Mana over 102 Seconds. Mana increased by Mp5 taking example by someone with T2 Quality Gear (22 Mp5) = 448 Mana + Mana inreased by (Base) 133 Spirit = 1271Total Mana : 11877Because 102 Seconds require 13800 Mana but you end up with 11877 Mana the damage done by Spell Damage will be reduced.3450 Mana / 25.5 Seconds = 135.29 Mana per second135.29 x 14.5 = 1961.7013800 - 11877 = 19231923 Mana will reduce 102 Seconds down to 87.5 Seconds for Spell Damage.230 Spell Damage = 89.27 DPS x 87.5 Seconds = 7811.12 Damage230 Intellect = 8641 DamageEven considering different kind of theory , we came to conclusion that Intellect is still better stat than Spell Damage. Edited December 10, 2016 by killerduki 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bezawit 0 Report post Posted December 10, 2016 You cant just ignore raid buffs/debuffs. Wisdom, mana spring, mana tide, judgement of wisdom, kings, shadow damage modifiers, mp5 + int + spirit consumables, runes, potions/elixirs etc. Also your healers get to a point where they dont need innervate and you can be fed these, especially if your raid runs a feral druid. All of these are going to impact the amount of time you can sustain your rotation and also increase the value of spellpower (from the shadow modifiers). Dont forget Spriest has more modifiers than any other class between Shadowform (15%), Darkness (10%), Shadow Weaving (15%), Imp. Shadowbolt debuff (20%), CoS (10%) and Nightfall (15%). For what it is worth, I agree that most people undervalue intellect when compared to spelldamage as a Spriest but the ways you are trying to prove it just aren't accurate. Do I think intellect is more valuable than spellpower on a 1:1 basis? No but I think it is very close in certain situations. You seem to think Spriest will always oom in 30 seconds. I promise you, from experience, the only fights I have had mana trouble with are Nef and Rag (before we got our kill time down). MC and BWL fights are quite fast when you are in a good guild and have high dps. I can't speak for AQ since I have not experienced it yet. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Maxvla 0 Report post Posted December 10, 2016 Yet they talk about my Formula and Math being wrong while 90% of their comments are Insulting,Bashing,Derailing,Trolling only because they was proven wrong even by their own Spread Sheet. Again, results from the spreadsheet: What actually happens in game - 500dmg + consumes = 96292 500int + consumes = 95722 What doesn't happen in game - 500dmg - consumes = 54584 500int - consumes = 58266 What also doesn't happen in game - 500dmg - consumes no regen = 40634 500 int - consumes no regen = 46482 As Bezawit says, you can't ignore buffs/consumables. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
killerduki 54 Report post Posted December 10, 2016 Again, results from the spreadsheet: What actually happens in game - 500dmg + consumes = 96292 500int + consumes = 95722 What doesn't happen in game - 500dmg - consumes = 54584 500int - consumes = 58266 What also doesn't happen in game - 500dmg - consumes no regen = 40634 500 int - consumes no regen = 46482 As Bezawit says, you can't ignore buffs/consumables. - I was counting 22 Mp5 as compensation for Buffs , i was counting Maximum outcome from Demonic Rune/Major Mana Potion which will never happen (3752). - Talking about Buffs, you do realize that 230 Intellect will result to = 253 Intellect which will also increase the Damage done by Intellect. - In the Calculation here , Critical Strikes was not counted. If Critical Strikes was counted then Intellect would end up even higher than it is written. Your spreadsheet count Wand Damage and Idle Mana when you don't Cast when you run out of Mana. /Kind regards Killerduki 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bezawit 0 Report post Posted December 10, 2016 (edited) Also lets just pretend that intellect is worth slightly more than spellpower (which again, I dont believe is true but lets pretend). What is it going to change? The only two item slots with comparable gear where one has more int and the other has more spellpower are wrists (Sili grind wrists vs. Broodlord wrists) and offhand (AV offhand vs. Nef head quest offhand). It's not like there are gems or reforging and you aren't going to use a wisdom flask for one fight in BWL when lotus is going for 50-200g. Edited December 10, 2016 by Bezawit 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
killerduki 54 Report post Posted December 10, 2016 (edited) You cant just ignore raid buffs/debuffs. Wisdom, mana spring, mana tide, judgement of wisdom, kings, shadow damage modifiers, mp5 + int + spirit consumables, runes, potions/elixirs etc. Also your healers get to a point where they dont need innervate and you can be fed these, especially if your raid runs a feral druid. All of these are going to impact the amount of time you can sustain your rotation and also increase the value of spellpower (from the shadow modifiers). Dont forget Spriest has more modifiers than any other class between Shadowform (15%), Darkness (10%), Shadow Weaving (15%), Imp. Shadowbolt debuff (20%), CoS (10%) and Nightfall (15%). For what it is worth, I agree that most people undervalue intellect when compared to spelldamage as a Spriest but the ways you are trying to prove it just aren't accurate. Do I think intellect is more valuable than spellpower on a 1:1 basis? No but I think it is very close in certain situations. You seem to think Spriest will always oom in 30 seconds. I promise you, from experience, the only fights I have had mana trouble with are Nef and Rag (before we got our kill time down). MC and BWL fights are quite fast when you are in a good guild and have high dps. I can't speak for AQ since I have not experienced it yet. 1- Mana Tide Totem, Mana Spring Totem will never work together with Blessing of Wisdom , Blessing of Kings = This is not TBC. 2- Shadowform , Darkness , Shadow Weaving was included. 3- If the total Damage done will result to : 230 Spell Damage = 89.27 DPS x 87.5 Seconds = 7811.12 Damage 230 Intellect = 8641 Damage Even if you add - Imp. Shadowbolt debuff (20%), CoS (10%) and Nightfall (15%). it will still end up even more DPS thanks to Intellect. 4- Yes, Intellect is better than Spell Damage , regardless how much you try to Devaluate or not, Formula gave exact number for that with 99% accuracy excluding Critical strikes where Intellect will become even greater than Spell Power for that . 5- With Base Mana only without Gear , yes it will OOM in 25.5 Seconds doing Max DPS with Max CD"s and Improved Abilities to Max. 6- MC fights i agree 100% that are quite fast ONLY for High End Geared people , BWL in current situation is 40+ Seconds ONLY for High End Geared people. /Kind regards Killerduki Edited December 10, 2016 by killerduki 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
killerduki 54 Report post Posted December 10, 2016 (edited) Also lets just pretend that intellect is worth slightly more than spellpower (which again, I dont believe is true but lets pretend). What is it going to change? The only two item slots with comparable gear where one has more int and the other has more spellpower are wrists (Sili grind wrists vs. Broodlord wrists) and offhand (AV offhand vs. Nef head quest offhand). It's not like there are gems or reforging and you aren't going to use a wisdom flask for one fight in BWL when lotus is going for 50-200g. It does Change. Example : Blade of the New Moon or Scepter of the Unholy with Tome of Shadow Force. You have Energetic Rod that will replace that weapons etc. /Kind regards Killerduki Edited December 10, 2016 by killerduki 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bezawit 0 Report post Posted December 10, 2016 (edited) I never said you can have both wisdom and mana spring. But why are you insisting on running your scenario with the priest being naked and having no raid buffs/debuffs? Lets assume alliance, you literally have: Nightfin Soup Mageblood Potion Improved Wisdom Judgement of Wisdom Arcane Intellect Blasted Lands Intellect MotW Divine Spirit Kings DM Spirit consumable Demonic Rune Major Mana Potion Innervates ZG 50stam/50spi consume ZG heart buff Not to mention all the int/spirit/mp5 from gear. You ARE going to be able to sustain every fight except Nef and maybe Rag. You also have done zero theory on rank 1 mind flay or cutting mind blast from the rotation. If your Nef fight lasts 3-10 minutes, your miniscule intellect choices arent going to be very impactful. You will get what? 2-3 extra casts off vs having more spelldamage for every spell you cast in that 3-10 minute time. Spellpower is going to win out since you are still able to spam rank1 mind flay and use max rank sw:p. Trust me, you saw my 5:25min Nef kill. Edited December 10, 2016 by Bezawit 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gotmilk0112 10 Report post Posted December 10, 2016 Why are people still arguing with this fanatical paladin main? 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
killerduki 54 Report post Posted December 10, 2016 (edited) I never said you can have both wisdom and mana spring. But why are you insisting on running your scenario with the priest being naked and having no raid buffs/debuffs? Lets assume alliance, you literally have: Nightfin Soup Mageblood Potion Improved Wisdom Judgement of Wisdom Arcane Intellect Blasted Lands Intellect MotW Divine Spirit Kings DM Spirit consumable Demonic Rune Major Mana Potion Innervates ZG 50stam/50spi consume ZG heart buff Not to mention all the int/spirit/mp5 from gear. You ARE going to be able to sustain every fight except Nef and maybe Rag. You also have done zero theory on rank 1 mind flay or cutting mind blast from the rotation. If your Nef fight lasts 3-10 minutes, your miniscule intellect choices arent going to be very impactful. You will get what? 2-3 extra casts off vs having more spelldamage for every spell you cast in that 3-10 minute time. Spellpower is going to win out since you are still able to spam rank1 mind flay and use max rank sw:p. Trust me, you saw my 5:25min Nef kill. Arcane Intellect Blasted Lands Intellect MotW Kings You do realize that those increase Intellect and will benefit Intellect and will increase Value of Intellect? Demonic RuneMajor Mana Potion https://forum.elysium-project.org/index.php?showtopic=23585&p=255331 Those was included already in their "Maximum" value. Not to mention all the int/spirit/mp5 from gear. That was written already. You also have done zero theory on rank 1 mind flay or cutting mind blast from the rotation. Spellpower is going to win out since you are still able to spam rank1 mind flay. Good luck with Spell Penalty for Rank 1 Mind Flay which is by miles lower DPS than Max Rank. https://forum.elysium-project.org/index.php?showtopic=23585&p=247422 135.XXX Damage with Mind Blast. 119.XXX Damage without Mind Blast. Theory was written for Max DPS and in previous Point it was already written the cutting Mind Blast which result to lower DPS than including Mind Blast. /Kind regards Killerduki Edited December 10, 2016 by killerduki 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asphycsia 0 Report post Posted December 10, 2016 You say no one other than cry gave you a formula but we have told you many times you can't compare spell power to int in the situation that you are describing as you will never be in that situation. The stats are not mutually exclusive. We have actually told you multiple times how/why your theory craft isn't correct. But since you refuse to I will repeat what we have said over and over again. Take the avg fight length that you will encounter and a standardized gear set. One that is actually realistic(not what you have been doing) and then do the calculations for the additions of 1 int vs 1 spell power this would be a more accurate reflection of int vs spell power I don't have to do the actual math to call into question the methodology in which you are testing and citing it as proof as it blatantly ignores a number of things 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bezawit 0 Report post Posted December 10, 2016 Let me break this down for you barney style. -With a good guild, you will not oom on anything other than Nef so this discussion is pointles. -You can not amass enough Intellect to sustain a long Nef kill so this discussion is pointless. This discussion is pointless. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cryofsorrow 5 Report post Posted December 10, 2016 This discussion is pointless. Yes. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Maxvla 0 Report post Posted December 10, 2016 Repeating again, since Killer is talking about the damage downgrade for not using mind blast... I removed mind blast from the test and repeated the conditions. No mind blast - 500dmg + consumes = 102487 - (with mindblast = 96292) 500int + consumes = 81748 - (with mindblast = 95722) 500dmg - consumes = 58652 - (with mindblast = 54584) 500int - consumes = 60347 - (with mindblast = 58266) 500dmg - consumes no regen = 44051 - (with mindblast = 40634) 500int - consumes no regen = 48631 - (with mindblast = 46482) Highest damage outcome is spell power and NO mindblast. Stop wasting our time. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asphycsia 0 Report post Posted December 10, 2016 Yes. Agreed. At this point I just kinda want to keep it going to see what he comes up with next. Haha 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
killerduki 54 Report post Posted December 10, 2016 (edited) Repeating again, since Killer is talking about the damage downgrade for not using mind blast... I removed mind blast from the test and repeated the conditions. No mind blast - 500dmg + consumes = 102487 - (with mindblast = 96292) 500int + consumes = 81748 - (with mindblast = 95722) 500dmg - consumes = 58652 - (with mindblast = 54584) 500int - consumes = 60347 - (with mindblast = 58266) 500dmg - consumes no regen = 44051 - (with mindblast = 40634) 500int - consumes no regen = 48631 - (with mindblast = 46482) Highest damage outcome is spell power and NO mindblast. Stop wasting our time. Cherry Pick Abilities like you did without duration explained, removing everything and let Shadow Word: Pain will result to even greater DPS compare to any other spell. 500 Intellect = 7500 Mana = 16 Shadow Word: Pain, 36 Mind Flay , 21 Mind Blast. 16 Shadow Word: Pain = 26432 Damage 36 Mind Flay = 22284 21 Mind Blast = 16233 + damage by Critical strike. /Kind regards Killerduki Edited December 10, 2016 by killerduki 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Maxvla 0 Report post Posted December 10, 2016 (edited) What?? I'm using your specifications. I'm not cherry picking anything. In all those tests the character ran out of mana (500 intellect or not), so I decided to see what would happen if I removed the least efficient ability, mind blast. The result is higher total damage and maintaining shadow weaving until the end of the fight. If you removed all abilities but swp,you would merely have 10 shadow word pains. 240 seconds divided by 24 second swp. This would be significantly lower total damage. Edited December 10, 2016 by Maxvla 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cryofsorrow 5 Report post Posted December 10, 2016 According to Duki you can use all three spells that many times with 500 intellect. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
killerduki 54 Report post Posted December 10, 2016 (edited) What?? I'm using your specifications. I'm not cherry picking anything. In all those tests the character ran out of mana (500 intellect or not), so I decided to see what would happen if I removed the least efficient ability, mind blast. The result is higher total damage and maintaining shadow weaving until the end of the fight. If you removed all abilities but swp,you would merely have 10 shadow word pains. 240 seconds divided by 24 second swp. This would be significantly lower total damage. 135.xxx damage versus 119.xxx damage thanks to T2 and Mind Blast . You wrote no specifics in your explanation, no duration , what stats used , what consumes etc. You just said 500 SP + Consumes versus 500 Intellect + Consumes where 500 Intellect will rock 500 SP when you go out of Mana by miles. You didn't said if you include Idle Mana or Wand Damage either. https://forum.elysium-project.org/index.php?showtopic=23585&p=247422 Did you also include Mind Blast Critical strike in your 500 Intellect + Consumes ? /Kind regards Killerduki Edited December 10, 2016 by killerduki 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Maxvla 0 Report post Posted December 10, 2016 (edited) The original test was 240 seconds as you well knowsince you told me to do it. The results posted were from that test. And yes, the spreadsheet accounts for crit from int. Edited December 10, 2016 by Maxvla 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
killerduki 54 Report post Posted December 10, 2016 (edited) The original test was 240 seconds as you well knowsince you told me to do it. The results posted were from that test. And yes, the spreadsheet accounts for crit from int. Did also counted Wand Damage and Idle Mana regen or any Regen ? /Kind regards Killerduki Edited December 10, 2016 by killerduki 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Maxvla 0 Report post Posted December 10, 2016 Yes, as I've already explained multiple times. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
