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killerduki

Shadow Priest Theorycraft by Killerduki

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1. Base Stats Dwarf Shadow Priest :

level 60 Priest

Intellect 120
Spirit 137
Base Mana + Mana from Base Intellect 2956

Related Source : http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Spirit?oldid=346403 November 29, 2006

2. Spirit points converting to Mana regeneration each second while Casting Formula :

2 Spirit when not cast is 1.25 Mana per 5 Seconds.
When you cast and have Meditation this will end up 2 Spirit while cast = 0.1875 Mana per 5 Seconds.
This will make us each 12 Spirit to gain 1.125 Mana per 5 seconds while cast.
60 Spirit will give us 5.625 Mana per 5 seconds.
This will result into 60 spirit giving us 1.125 Mana each second while casting thanks to Meditation. (2.25 with t2 3 pieces)
137 Spirit will result into 2.283 * 1.125 = 2.56 Mana each second while casting thanks to Meditation (5.12 with t2 3 pieces).

120 Intellect will result into 2 Spell Crit (60 Intellect = 1 Spell Crit).

3.Base DPS per Spell :

Mind Blast Rank 9 = 350 Mana doing 503-532 Damage + 15% Shadow Weaving + 10% Darkness + 15% ShadowForm = 731-773 Damage
With Improved Mind Blast 5/5 CD will be 5.5 Seconds + 1.5 Seconds Cast which results into : 104-110 DPS + x (unknown Crits).

Mind Flay Rank 6 = 205 Mana doing 426 Damage + 15% Shadow Weaving + 10% Darkness + 15% ShadowForm = 619 Damage divide to 3 tick/second = 206 DPS

Shadow Word: Pain Rank 8 = 470 Mana 852 Damage over 18 Seconds + Improved Shadow Word: Pain = 1136 Damage over 24 Seconds
1136 Damage + 15% Shadow Weaving + 10% Darkness + 15% ShadowForm = 1652 Damage over 24 Seconds divide to 24 seconds = 68 DPS

According to Sources : http://frankenraid.net/showthread.php?48-How-to-gear-up-your-shadow-priest 08-11-2006

4.Spell Damage Coefficient :

Improved Shadow Word: Pain: 133% (16.67% per tick)
Mind Blast: 43%
Mind Flay: 45% (15% per tick)

5.Maximum DPS over 25.5 and 51 seconds :

- Calculating max damage output by Mindblast but excluding Criticals, preformed with Base Mana + Spirit regenerated for the duration of time.
- Using personal Rotation for Maximum Damage Output
- Calculations are included with Shadow Weaving stacks but will not mention them during the seconds and you can notice the damage increase by abilities.
- I will calculate seconds wasted from Mind flay after the next Spell Cast.
- I will calculate Mind Blast after the cast.

1.5 Second Mind Blast 350 Mana 672 Damage - Shadow Word Pain 470 Mana , 3 Second Mind Flay 205 Mana 2 Tick 391 Damage , 4.5 Second Shadow Word: Pain tick 195 (1),5 Second Mind Flay 205 Mana 2 Tick 402 Damage , 7.5 Second Shadow Word: Pain 201 (2), 8.5 Second Mind Blast 350 Mana 753 Damage - Mind Flay 205 Mana 3 tick 618 Damage , 10.5 Second Shadow Word: Pain 206 Damage (3) , 13 Second Mind Blast 350 Mana 773 Damage - Mind Flay 3 tick 205 Mana 618 Damage, 13.5 Second Shadow Word: Pain 206 Damage (4),16.5 Second Shadow Word: Pain 206 Damage (5),17.5 Second Mind Blast 350 Mana 773 Damage - Mind Flay 3 tick 205 Mana 618 Damage, 19.5 Second Shadow Word: Pain 206 Damage (6), 22 Second Mind Blast 350 Mana 773 Damage - Mind Flay 3 tick 205 Mana 618 Damage , 22.5 Second Shadow Word: Pain 206 Damage (7), 25.5 Second Shadow Word: Pain 206 Damage (8)

Total casts/ticks: 5x Mind Blast Cast, 1x Shadow Word: Pain Cast, 6x Mind Flay Cast 16 Ticks (2x 2 Tick , 4x 4 Tick).
Mana Wasted: 1750 Mana Mind Blast , 470 Mana Shadow Word: Pain , 1230 Mana Mind Flay. 3450 Mana Total.
Mana Regenerated by Spirit Thanks to Meditation: 65 (130 thanks to T2 3 pieces).
Mana Finish: 3385 - Base Mana = 429 Mana Negative (364 with t2 3 pieces) "As Dwarf",(since we wasted too much, can include Inner Focus on Shadow Word: Pain we end up 41 Mana or 106 with t2 3 pieces).

Total Damage over 25.5 Second: 8641
Mind Blast : 3744 Damage
Shadow Word: Pain : 1632 Damage
Mind Flay : 3265 Damage

Total DPS over 25.5 Second : 338.xx
Mind Blast : 146.xx
Shadow Word: Pain : 64.xx
Mind Flay : 128.xx

Most efficient Mana Generate Consumes (calculating Maximum)Total: 3752 Mana
Demonic Rune : 900-1501
Major Mana Potion : 1350-2251

Our Base Mana + Mana Consumes Increased: 6708 Mana or 131 Mana per Second wasted over 51 Seconds (Excluding Inner Focus).

Casting Spells will result into : 6770 Mana wasted over 51 Seconds or 132 Mana per Second "660 Mp5"(Excluding Inner Focus).
137 Spirit will result:130 Mana over 51 Seconds (it was included in previous calculations) (with t2 3 piece will go up to 260 Mana).

- With this we conclude that Intellect have no Value if we exclude Critical Strikes for the Duration of Fights until 51 Seconds (less/more).
- Without Consumes 25.5 Seconds (less/more).
- With Consumes 51 Seconds (less/more).

6.Stats Priority for X Duration of fight (excluding Wand,HiT and Crit):


31 Intellect versus 31 Spell Damage per 10 seconds difference:


31 Spell Damage = 41.23 Damage by Shadow Word: Pain + Bonuses = 59.97 Damage / 24 = 2.49 DPS
31 Spell Damage = 13.95 Damage by Mind Flay + Bonuses = 20.29 Damage / 3 = 6.76 DPS
31 Spell Damage = 13.33 Damage by Mind Blast + Bonuses = 19.39 Damage / 7 = 2.77 DPS
31 Spell Damage = 12.02 Total DPS


31 Intellect = 1652 Damage per Mana gained by Shadow Word: Pain (max Rank)
31 Intellect = 1020 Damage per Mana gained by Mind Blast (Ranks combinations to suit the mana)
31 Intellect = 1398 Damage per Mana gained by Mind Flay (Ranks combinations to suit the mana)

- Keep note that in longer fight than 51 Seconds, your Spell Damage will loose Value since you are out of Mana after Base Mana+Consumes (Major Mana Potion and Demonic Runes) are Wasted.
- For 4 Minutes fight Mana is increased (Because of twice using Pots/Runes) and duration is increased up to 76.5 Seconds from Base Stats and Consumes which cause direct effects to Spell Damage Values and Intellect.

240 Seconds fight will result:
31 Spell Damage = 12.02 /(240 - 76.5 "Base+Consumes") = 0.07 DPS
31 Intellect = 6.88 DPS by Shadow Word: Pain, 4.25 DPS by Mind Blast, 5.82 DPS by Mind Flay

120 Seconds Fight will result:
31 Spell Damage = 12.02 /(120 - 51 "Base+Consumes") = 0.17 DPS
31 Intellect = 13.76 DPS by Shadow Word: Pain, 8.5 DPS by Mind Blast, 11.65 DPS by Mind Flay

110 Seconds Fight will result:
31 Spell Damage = 12.02 /(110 - 51 "Base+Consumes") = 0.20 DPS
31 Intellect = 15.01 DPS by Shadow Word: Pain, 9.27 DPS by Mind Blast, 12.70 DPS by Mind Flay

100 Seconds Fight will result:
31 Spell Damage = 12.02 /(100 - 51 "Base+Consumes") = 0.24 DPS
31 Intellect = 16.52 DPS by Shadow Word: Pain, 10.2 DPS by Mind Blast, 13.98 DPS by Mind Flay.

90 Seconds Fight will result:
31 Spell Damage = 12.02 /(90 - 51 "Base+Consumes") = 0.30 DPS
31 Intellect = 18.35 DPS by Shadow Word: Pain, 11.33 DPS by Mind Blast, 15.53 DPS by Mind Flay.

80 Seconds Fight will result:
31 Spell Damage = 12.02 /(80 - 51 "Base+Consumes") = 0.41 DPS
31 Intellect = 20.65 DPS by Shadow Word: Pain, 12.75 DPS by Mind Blast, 17.47 DPS by Mind Flay.

70 Seconds Fight will result:
31 Spell Damage = 12.02 /(70 - 51 "Base+Consumes") = 0.63 DPS
31 Intellect = 17.7 DPS by Shadow Word: Pain, 14.57 DPS by Mind Blast, 19.97 DPS by Mind Flay.

60 Seconds Fight will result:
31 Spell Damage = 12.02 /(60 - 51 "Base+Consumes") = 1.33 DPS
31 Intellect = 10.32 DPS by Shadow Word: Pain, 17 DPS by Mind Blast, 27.53 DPS by Mind Flay

50 Seconds Fight or lower will result:
31 Spell Damage = 12.02 DPS "Base+Consumes"
31 Intellect = 0 DPS

20 Seconds Fight or lower will result:
31 Spell Damage = 12.02 DPS "Base"
31 Intellect = 0 DPS

7.Mp5 and Spirit results :

- From 6708 Mana wasted over 51 seconds it will result in 657 Mp5, you will do 17282 Damage or 338 DPS over 51 Seconds by Max Rank Shadow Damage Abilities.
- Where 657 Mp5 = 131.4 Mana per Second = 338 DPS.
- We can conclude that each 2.57 Mana per Second = 1 DPS or for more accurate information 12.85 Mp5 = 1 DPS for Entire duration of fight.

Calculations are made while Casting :
31 Mp5 / 5 = 6.2 per second * 51 = 316.2 Mana over 51 Seconds or 2.41 DPS.
31 Spirit = 2.81 Mp5(while casting with Meditation) / 5 = 0.56 per second * 51 = 28.56 Mana over 51 Seconds or 0.20 DPS , with T2 3 pieces = 57.12 Mana over 51 Seconds or 0.40 DPS .

8.Just to Note :

- Hit Rating i did not include, because HiT Cap is mandatory and i am not sure how to Theory that.
- Crit will change values to both Intellect and Spell Damage and is quite hard to get accurate or close Theory about that, since it Crits per Chance and only for Mind Blast.
- Intellect and Spell Damage both scale together, where in longer than 60-70 Seconds fight Intellect will have highest Value, while in shorter than 60-50 seconds fight Intellect become useless and Spell Damage is most Value stat.
- For fights where you can Multidot such as C'thun,KT,Neffarian,Ragnaros,Majordommo etc Intellect is your Major Stat together with Mp5 and Spirit.

Hope you like it and have a nice day :)

/Kind regards Killerduki

Edited by killerduki

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9.Mana required for X duration of fight:
(starting from 51 seconds rule which is Base Stats+Consumes)

51 Seconds = 6708 Mana
60 Seconds = 7890 Mana
70 Seconds = 9198 Mana
80 Seconds = 10512 Mana
90 Seconds = 11826 Mana
100 Seconds = 13140 Mana
110 Seconds = 14454 Mana
120 Seconds = 15768 Mana
240 Seconds = 31536 Mana

10.Maximum Mp5 Required for infinite duration of fights to replace completely Intellect: 657

11.Intellect required for X duration of fight:
(starting from 51 seconds rule which is Base Stats+Consumes)
(2 Minutes is from 74 seconds rule because of twice consumes used)

51 Seconds = 0 Intellect (120 Base+0)= 120 Intellect
60 Seconds = 79 Intellect (120 Base+79)= 199 Intellect
70 Seconds = 166 Intellect (120 Base+166)= 286 Intellect
80 Seconds = 253 Intellect (120 Base+253)= 373 Intellect
90 Seconds = 341 Intellect (120 Base+341)= 461 Intellect
100 Seconds = 428 Intellect (120 Base+428)= 548 Intellect
110 Seconds = 516 Intellect (120 Base+516)= 636 Intellect
120 Seconds = 604 Intellect (120 Base+604)= 724 Intellect
240 Seconds = 1405 Intellect (120 Base+1405)= 1525 Intellect

12.Notes:

We can see now how much Mp5 (or) Intellect is required for X duration of fight in order to make our +Spell Damage scale Maximum by it's Spell Damage coefficient for the duration of time explained.
Keep in mind that you don't need full amount of Intellect or Mp5 explained if you combine it together, you need to find your own Balance between both.
Explanation for 240 Seconds is the final and maximum cap for Intellect (anything more than that is wasted and have 0 value).


13.Outside and random calculations included (Warning it can be confused because they don't explain their roles):

level 60 Priest

120 Intellect
137 Spirit
2956 Mana

142 Base Damage Mindflay per tick
142 Shadow word: Pain per tick

full boost Shadow word: Pain 206 Damage per tick
full boost Mind Flay 206 Damage per tick

31 Intellect = 465 Mana

1.3 Mind Blast per 31 Intellect
2.2 Mind Flay per 31 Intellect

131 Damage by Mind Blast = 18 DPS
154 Damage by Mind Flay = 51 DPS
198 Damage by Shadow Word: Pain = 8 DPS

Mind Blast 350 Mana , Mind Flay 205 Mana , Shadow Word: Pain 470 Mana.

31 Spirit 120 Sec = 60 mana = 0.17 Damage by Mind Blast, 0.29 Damage by Mind Flay, 0.12 Damage by Shadow Word: Pain.
31 Spirit 110 Sec = 55 mana = 0.15 Damage by Mind Blast, 0.26 Damage by Mind Flay, 0.11 Damage by Shadow Word: Pain.

120 Seconds = 69 (each 10 seconds minus 10) 110 = 59 , 100 = 49 , 90 = 39 , 80 = 29 , 70=19, 60= 9

Mind Flay = 6 Seconds = 1398 Damage, Mind Blast = 9 Seconds = 1020 Damage , Shadow Word: Pain 24 Seconds = 1652 Damage.

70= -2 Ticks Shadow Word: Pain = -413
60= -5 Ticks Shadow Word: Pain = -1032.5

163.5 Seconds

6.2 Mp1

36

1800 Mana = 26% reduce time

1275 Mana = 3.6 Mind Blast,6.2 Mind Flay,2.7 Shadow Word: Pain

131.4 mp1second.
60 seconds = 1182 Mana
70 seconds = 2490 Mana
80 seconds = 3804 Mana
90 seconds = 5118 Mana
100 seconds = 6432 Mana
110 seconds = 7746 Mana
120 seconds = 9060 Mana
240 seconds = 21076 Mana
 

 

14. Discussion with ones who disapproving and crusading my Formula calling me wrong or spreading Miss Information thru Discord and this Topic :

 

1.

15317794_10154117072190418_5589842668589

 

2.

15349586_10154117072180418_1658187896899

 

3.

15267702_10154117072305418_7275302947651

 

4.

15317958_10154117072315418_2398891059089

 

Now conversation regarding the DPS increased thanks to 3 Pieces T2 and thanks to Mind Blast :

 

5.

15400435_10154117072325418_4393525837707

 

6.

15337380_10154117072410418_3059878996056

 

7.

15338753_10154117072440418_5689481836717

 

135.xxx damage versus 119.xxx damage thanks to T2 and Mind Blast .

 

8.

15319029_10154117072445418_6659979728551

 

Oh , snap shot  ^^^^^^^^^ .

 

9.

15267708_10154117072500418_5732726063371

 

10.

15400917_10154117072195418_8759311309133

 

15. In Combat experiment for fight with equal Intellect and Spell Damage.

 

We will try to throw some different kind of theory explanation where we will compare 230 Intellect with 230 Spell Damage including Mana regeneration , duration of fight and Damage Done/DPS output for that (non cherry pick stats where all stats are calculated at once).

 

230 Intellect
VS
230 Spell Damage

According To :

5.Maximum DPS over 25.5 and 51 seconds :
 

1.5 Second Mind Blast 350 Mana 672 Damage - Shadow Word Pain 470 Mana , 3 Second Mind Flay 205 Mana 2 Tick 391 Damage , 4.5 Second Shadow Word: Pain tick 195 (1),5 Second Mind Flay 205 Mana 2 Tick 402 Damage , 7.5 Second Shadow Word: Pain 201 (2), 8.5 Second Mind Blast 350 Mana 753 Damage - Mind Flay 205 Mana 3 tick 618 Damage , 10.5 Second Shadow Word: Pain 206 Damage (3) , 13 Second Mind Blast 350 Mana 773 Damage - Mind Flay 3 tick 205 Mana 618 Damage, 13.5 Second Shadow Word: Pain 206 Damage (4),16.5 Second Shadow Word: Pain 206 Damage (5),17.5 Second Mind Blast 350 Mana 773 Damage - Mind Flay 3 tick 205 Mana 618 Damage, 19.5 Second Shadow Word: Pain 206 Damage (6), 22 Second Mind Blast 350 Mana 773 Damage - Mind Flay 3 tick 205 Mana 618 Damage , 22.5 Second Shadow Word: Pain 206 Damage (7), 25.5 Second Shadow Word: Pain 206 Damage (8)
Total casts/ticks: 5x Mind Blast Cast, 1x Shadow Word: Pain Cast, 6x Mind Flay Cast 16 Ticks (2x 2 Tick , 4x 4 Tick). Mana Wasted: 1750 Mana Mind Blast , 470 Mana Shadow Word: Pain , 1230 Mana Mind Flay. 3450 Mana Total.

Total Damage over 25.5 Second: 8641
Mind Blast : 3744 Damage
Shadow Word: Pain : 1632 Damage
Mind Flay : 3265 Damage

230 Intellect = 3450 Mana = 8641 Damage / 25.5 = 338.86 DPS over 25.5 Seconds

According To :

4.Spell Damage Coefficient :
 

Improved Shadow Word: Pain: 133% (16.67% per tick)
Mind Blast: 43%
Mind Flay: 45% (15% per tick)

230 Spell Damage = 20.55 DPS by Mind Blast with Bonuses , 50.18 DPS by Mind Flay with Bonuses , 18.54 DPS by Shadow Word: Pain.

Total DPS by 230 Spell Damage = 89.27 DPS over X Seconds.

If the fight is 51 Seconds this will result into :

230 Intellect = 8641 / 51 = 169.43 DPS over 51 Seconds.

230 Spell Damage = 89.27 DPS over X Seconds.

If the fight is 102 Seconds this will result into :

230 Intellect = 8641 / 105 = 85.55 DPSover 102 Seconds.

230 Spell Damage = 89.27 DPS over X Seconds but since you will OOM at 87.5 Seconds then it will result in 7811 Damage / 102 = 76.57 DPS over 102 Seconds.

We go that Spell Damage value since over 102 Seconds you will have to waste 13800 Mana.

This will result to :

 

2956 Base Mana + 3450 Mana from Intellect + 3752 Maximum Consumes Mana =10 158 Mana over 102 Seconds.

 

Mana increased by Mp5 taking example by someone with T2 Quality Gear (22 Mp5) = 448 Mana + Mana inreased by (Base) 133 Spirit = 1271

Total Mana : 11877

Because 102 Seconds require 13800 Mana but you end up with 11877 Mana the damage done by Spell Damage will be reduced.

3450 Mana / 25.5 Seconds = 135.29 Mana per second
135.29 x 14.5 = 1961.70
13800 - 11877 = 1923
1923 Mana will reduce 102 Seconds down to 87.5 Seconds for Spell Damage.

230 Spell Damage = 89.27 DPS x 87.5 Seconds = 7811.12 Damage
230 Intellect = 8641 Damage

Even considering different kind of theory , we came to conclusion that Intellect is still better stat than Spell Damage.

 

"Details Matter" <Make Shadow Priest Great Again> <3

Hope you like it , have a nice day wink.png

 

/Kind regards Killerduki

Edited by killerduki

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I appreciate you took your time to calculate and type all this, but here's what my opinion is on the Intellect vs. Spell Power matter.

I'm using my Priest as base for the 98s(97.5s) rotation below.

Mana: 5266 base mana + 465 mana (31 AI) + 225 (16 MotW) = 5956 total mana
Spirit: 144 base + 22 gear + 40 Divine Spirit + 16 Mark of the Wild = 222. Just the usual spirit/intellect buffs are included here. Kreg's Stout Beatdown is unavailable at the moment.
Spirit regen: 222/4 + 12.5 = 68 normal regen = 10.2 mana per tick while casting (15% Meditation)
Mp5: 32 mp5 from gear (Firemaw's Clutch, 4mp5 bracer enchant, Anathema, Shard of the Scale) + 20 mp5 from consumables (Mageblood Potion, Nightfin Soup) = 52 Mp5

Sustained mana in 1m37s(97s or 97.5s in the calculations) fight: 5956 + 1501rune + 2251potion + 489 (48x10.2 Meditation) + 1248 (Mp5) = 11 556 Mana
I've put the maximum amount of mana regained through potion and rune in the sake of making the fight longer and calculation easier. This excludes any type of buffs like Blessing of Wisdom, Mana Spring Totem, Mana Tide Totem or Innervate. And you should be happy about this because the longer the fight goes, the lower damage output you have because you are lowering your Spell Power and the Intellect stat is STATIC.

Tome of Shadow Power vs. Master Dragonslayer's Orb or 14 Intellect vs. 6 Spell Power

Calculations include Loop of High End rotation (shadow word:pain->mind blast->2x mind flay->mind blast... which is made only for numbers purpose) and a 97.5s random rotation that I normally use due to being Horde and having threat issues sometimes.

http://pastebin.com/sCea7FTX

You can see that the longer the fight is, the less damage you will do with more Intellect.

14 intellect vs. 6 spell power = 364 more damage(0.1103498453% damage increase)/4 DPS(NOT sustainable) in 97.5 seconds fight with random rotation
1 intellect = 26 damage bonus in 97.5 seconds fight with random rotation


There is no fight in MC or BWL that will benefit from this WHOPPING 364 extra damage increase due to having 14 more Intellect. Fight longevity check:

Horde MC: http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/RaidOverview.aspx?Raid=38130
Horde BWL: http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/RaidOverview.aspx?Raid=38010
Alliance MC: http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/RaidOverview.aspx?Raid=38087
Alliance BWL: http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/RaidOverview.aspx?Raid=38061

Boss notes: On Ragnaros there's a chance you get knocked back. On Garr as a Priest, even if you are Shadow, you should help out with Dispel/Shield on exploding adds. Razorgore is being mind controlled by a shadow priest most of the time. Broodlord Lashlayer requires DPS to hold for the first 10-20 seconds due to the -50% aggro reduction ability he has. Chromaggus and his vulnerabilities. Nefarian is the Shadow Priest nightmare and according to the calculations, the longer the fight goes, the less effect Intellect stats has.

The only fights that MAY beneft from having 12 more Intellect are Garr and Ragnaros only if you want that 364 MORE DAMAGE DONE.

And to further prove my statement on Intellect vs. Spell Power, here's another calculation

Tome of Shadow Power + Rockfury Bracers vs. Master Dragonslayer's Orb + Bracers of Arcane Accuracy or 26 Intellect vs. 12 Spell Power

In this calculation I've used Mind Blast as the extra spell you get from having more Intellect since according to you Mind Blast is where your damage is coming from. (tip: Mind Flay is)

http://pastebin.com/VtmviUJ2

26 intellect vs. 12 spell power = 354 more damage(0.010456357% damage increase)/3.6 DPS(NOT sustainable) in 97.5 seconds fight with random rotation
1 intellect = 13.61 damage bonus in 97.5 seconds fight with random rotation


CONCLUSION

The more Intellect you stack instead of Spell Power, the less your damage output will be. The 0.23% (14 intellect) and 0.43% (26 intellect) Spell Critical gained is NEGLIGIBLE.

MIND YOU, THIS IS A SHADOW PRIEST DISCUSSION. IT'S ONE OF THE SPECS THAT HAS THE LOWEST DPS IN THE GAME.

Also, thank you for making me look like an autist making all those calculations on SOMETHING SO INSIGNIFICANT.

But who am I kidding... "Why don't you use Transcendence 3 Pieces where you get extra 15% Mana Regeneration while Casting? In combination with Discipline talent you go up to 30% Mana Regeneration which is imo something that makes you nearly impossible to oom even if you spam 5/5 improved Mindblast on CD  thanks to runes and pots." is your creation. Source: https://forum.elysium-project.org/index.php?showtopic=23474&page=1#entry246760

And before you latch onto the numbers I've put and twist them through your "10 years of experience", I want to let you know that I won't respond back unless you put something else to calculate (NOT INTELLECT).

PS: I reread your calculations and I find it hilarious that Intellect will increase your DPS on short fights. This makes absolutely zero sense. In the PvE basics thread, that is. You type different things in different threads, that's why it's hard to communicate and argue with you. :D

Edited by cryofsorrow

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I just realised there's a miscalculation on the Mp5 since I used that for longer fight and deleted it before posting the results. It should be 988 gained from Mp5 in the course of 98s fight. But this doesn't affect the numbers in anyway since all the calculations are using the same sustained mana.

Edited by cryofsorrow

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Hello Cryofsorrow.

 

Here is some stuffs where you miss understood :

 

Mana: 5266 base mana + 465 mana (31 AI) + 225 (16 MotW) = 5956 total mana

Spirit: 144 base + 22 gear + 40 Divine Spirit + 16 Mark of the Wild = 222. Just the usual spirit/intellect buffs are included here. Kreg's Stout Beatdown is unavailable at the moment.

Spirit regen: 222/4 + 12.5 = 68 normal regen = 10.2 mana per tick while casting (15% Meditation)

Mp5: 32 mp5 from gear (Firemaw's Clutch, 4mp5 bracer enchant, Anathema, Shard of the Scale) + 20 mp5 from consumables (Mageblood Potion, Nightfin Soup) = 52 Mp5

 

The reason why i calculated "Base Mana" on Naked Character was:

 

- Base Mana average for every Race is : 3000..(less/more by 50+-)

- Here we can see you have over 5266 Base Mana which lead us to believe:

 

- You already have increased 85 Intellect more outside from your Gear.

 

Sustained mana in 1m37s(97s or 97.5s in the calculations) fight: 5956 + 1501rune + 2251potion + 489 (48x10.2 Meditation) + 1248 (Mp5) = 11 556 Mana

 

- Basically you have 1275 Mana increased by Intellect here which also takes the part of the rule 51 Seconds + of the fight duration, the rest are Spirit and Mp5.

 

This will result in :

 

2782 Damage by Mind Blast

3837 Damage by Mind Flay

4460 Damage by Shadow Word: Pain

 

Over 97 Seconds Duration of fight this will result in:

 

28.68 DPS by Mind Blast

39.55 DPS by Mind Flay

49.97 DPS by Shadow Word: Pain

 

Over 97 Seconds Duration of fight your Mp5 and Spirit will increase:

 

4.1 DPS by Mp5 and Spirit

 

You have also over 37 Spell Damage in your Gear where over 97 Seconds Duration of fight will increase:

 

41.23 Damage by Shadow Word: Pain, with Bonuses = 59.97 Damage = 2.49 DPS

15.91 Damage by Mind Blast, with Bonuses = 23.14 Damage = 3.30 DPS

16.65 Damage by Mind Flay , with Bonuses = 24.22 Damage = 8.07 DPS

Total DPS : 13.86.

 

This will result in:

 

37 Spell Damage = 13.86 /(97 - 51 "Base+Consumes") = 0.30 DPS

 

Back to Analyze the Base Stats with further explanation and calculation for over 97 Seconds :

 

17282 Damage from Base Stats+Consumes (Runes+Pots) = 178.16 DPS

37 Spell Damage = 0.30 DPS.

28.68 DPS by Mind Blast

39.55 DPS by Mind Flay

49.97 DPS by Shadow Word: Pain

4.1 DPS by Mp5 and Spirit

 

Total DPS over 97 seconds Fight: 211.24 DPS if your extra Mana is wasted only on Mind Blast, 221.11 DPS if your extra Mana is wasted only on Mind Flay, 232.53 DPS if your extra Mana is wasted only on Shadow Word: Pain.

 

- We can conclude that average DPS will result in 221 if we consider negative and positive DPS increased of various spells for the stats calculated.

 

Notes:

- Critical Strikes are not included because we can't know accurate.

- Hit Rating is not mention because Hit Cap is Mandatory.

- Demonic Runes will not always increase maximum Mana which will have direct impact to 51 Second rule and will reduce it lower where stats will devalue.

 

 

Constructive Criticism:

http://pastebin.com/sCea7FTX

(not possible to perform in a real raid due to mana restrictions, numbers purpose only)

 

Your Calculations in your Formula is wrong for the following reasons:

 

1- You did not calculate Mana increased and Mana wasted in your DPS Calculations which will result in huge portion of Intellect or Mp5.

2- You already said yourself that it is not possible to achieve that DPS via Spell Damage and Stats given.

3- My Base Stats formula also include 120 Intellect given from Naked level 60 Priest.

4- Without Base 120 Intellect the fight duration will go down to 18.87 Seconds with Base Mana or 44.37 Seconds with Base Mana and Consumes.

5- Any Duration longer than 44.37 Seconds (with consumes) will result in High Value for Intellect.

6- Your calculations are based on "Infinite Mana" where it makes Intellect 0 Value and is wrong, because you don't have "Infinite Mana" in reality (except Vaelstraz).

 

 

- All those reasons have different Results for your 97 Seconds fight and will highly devalue portion of DPS given.

 

 

/Kind regards Killerduki

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NrRpvgf.gif

PS: I'm leaving this "you will get more Damage Done if you stack Intellect instead of Spell Power" thread. Have fun misguiding new players.
PS2: Doesn't matter what are the base stats. It's some fictional mana pool to reflect as much as possible the outcome of Intellect vs. Spell Power in a 98s fight.

The best way to counter all this is to make a Shadow Priest and show what you can do with the spec. But you will never do this, even on a 12x experience server, so this discussion is pointless.

Edited by cryofsorrow

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Yea you are wasting your time Cry. His go to arguement from what  I have seen for ret pally. shadow priest, etc is just stack int. 

 

Re: Retribution Pre-Raid and Raid BiS - Updated for ZG Relea

by smilkovpetko » Sat Dec 12, 2015 8:03 pm

Intellect is and always will be our Highest Stat DPS. 

 

On a side note 

 

2yk97c.jpg

Edited by Asphycsia

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They put spell damage in the game because spells didn't scale with gear. Casters were hitting like a wet noodle compared to melee classes.

 

You should always be stacking the most +dmg potency into your spells as your first priority, since you will rarely ever be running OOM. If you do, downrank, or rely more on Mp/5. Sure, if you have purely +spell damage gear and no other stats that wouldn't work so well, but that's not going to happen, it's not how the game's gearing works.

 

Just think about it like a vehicle with a massive Fuel Tank besides one with massive Torque/Acceleration. Increased longevity will only result in benefits if that limit of fuel is reached. This rarely happens with standard gear at 60, and especially as you move into Raids. Yes, your mana is precious - but it is not the most precious thing. Your ability to throw out the most potent spells available is the goal. Things happen so frantically these days. Fights are counted in Seconds, not Minutes. And this is all discounting the buffs you'll have on you when you're actually in a place where your longevity is taken into account. And by the time you're asked to DPS for a solid few minutes in a raid, you should be able to do so without reducing your damage capabilities in order to extend your longevity.

 

In the end, by the time you get to a level where you can actually pick and choose your stats and swap gear in and out, you'll have enough mana to do most fights just by base Intellect found on gear at 60.

 

ps - and killerduki your #6 point is flawed. You can't just compare 31 int vs 31 spell power and call it a day since Stat Weights are a thing.

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Xom, great explanation without the need of numbers and calculations. Something I wish I could've done instead of squinting my eyes in Notepad++. Unfortunatelly, Killerduki doesn't understand that the Intellect stat will give him only certain amount of Mana which will be equal to 1 or 2 more spells to cast. The only time Intellect will outweight Spell Power is on a fight where you will go Out of Mana precisely when the boss goes down. Said otherwise, in the very moment you run OOM and the boss is still alive the Intellect falls down in value versus Spell Power. May be I didn't express that very clear due to language barrier but yeah, you get the point.

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By Xom
They put spell damage in the game because spells didn't scale with gear. Casters were hitting like a wet noodle compared to melee classes.
 

- Not entirely true , but in common sense Spell Damage does not scale or benefit all Classes the same , Druid and Shadow Priests major issue is not the Damage but Mana in most of their time , Retribution Paladin is the same , Elemental Shaman is the same.

- All of the Hybrid Classes have 1 major issue in common : Mana which results them to low DPS.

 

By Xom

You should always be stacking the most +dmg potency into your spells as your first priority, since you will rarely ever be running OOM.

 

- How long you can sustain with 3000 Mana if 100% of your Gear is +Dmg, i don't think you can handle more than 20 seconds.

 

By Xom

If you do, downrank, or rely more on Mp/5.

 

- In this game there is Spell Damage penalty for lower Rank and low Rank Spells also will do lesser damage which result in very low DPS compare to the formula given.

 

By Xom

Sure, if you have purely +spell damage gear and no other stats that wouldn't work so well, but that's not going to happen, it's not how the game's gearing works.

 

- Let pick some examples from Cry Gear Guide:

 

https://forum.elysium-project.org/index.php?showtopic=23474

 

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=18728

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=14112

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=18372

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=13349

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=19309

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=13029

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=1992

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=13396

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=18407

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=1980

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=19861

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=19133

 

- None of those items gives anything other than Spell Damage and can't sustain that Mana for longer than 51 Seconds (with all the Consumes) .

 

By Xom

Fights are counted in Seconds,

 

- You have seen yourself how long those fights are by the Best Guilds with High End Gear where 70% of the Guilds or 80% of the population is nowhere near Geared to have that fast in order to reach the Standards of the duration of fight.

 

By Xom

And by the time you're asked to DPS for a solid few minutes in a raid, you should be able to do so without reducing your damage capabilities in order to extend your longevity.

 

- Without Intellect as priority , you will be unable to do Max Damage more than 51 Seconds shown on the formula which is slight lower than 1 minute , not to mention "minutes" where 166 Seconds out of 240 Seconds which is 2 minutes you will end without mana.

 

By Xom

ps - and killerduki your #6 point is flawed. You can't just compare 31 int vs 31 spell power and call it a day since Stat Weights are a thing

 

- Evidence and Formula was given for that , if you tend to disagree i am fine with that, if you tend to call me wrong then feel free to provide me Evidence.

 

by Cryofsorrow

PS2: Doesn't matter what are the base stats. It's some fictional mana pool to reflect as much as possible the outcome of Intellect vs. Spell Power in a 98s fight.

 

- There is no Fiction in World of Warcraft, everything is made via Mathematical Formulas and numbers.

- Stats matter and this is main importance in Game for any Class.

 

by Cryofsorrow

Unfortunatelly, Killerduki doesn't understand that the Intellect stat will give him only certain amount of Mana which will be equal to 1 or 2 more spells to cast.

The only time Intellect will outweight Spell Power is on a fight where you will go Out of Mana precisely when the boss goes down.

 

- I do understand , and that's why i have created formula for you to see, how much Mana from X points of Intellect will give you X casts that will result to Y Damage for the Duration of fight.

 

by Cryofsorrow

Said otherwise, in the very moment you run OOM and the boss is still alive the Intellect falls down in value versus Spell Power.

 

- It is quite the opposite , in the very moment Spell Damage will worth nothing because it will benefit you 0 DPS , Intellect will just increase the duration of your Spell Casts where it will result to more Damage output or DPS .

 

by Cryofsorrow

Have fun misguiding new players.

 

- Thank you <3

 

/Kind regards Killerduki

Edited by killerduki

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Man, no offense but you have a reading comprehension problem.

 

I never said you should only stack +dmg. I said it should be the first priority. This was settled more than a decade ago.

 

Please go read what I wrote again with that in mind. No one has said "Ignore Intellect it's bad". Your anecdotal evidence about there being some +dmg gear out there proves only that you misinterpreted the point I was making. You created some straw-man argument about someone who is dumb enough to stack only +dmg and then say he'll run OOM - well no фекал Sherlock, no one was saying that it was a good idea to not have any other stats on their gear. We're saying that you'll naturally just have enough mana by putting on the best item you have available because that's how gear works. Most Caster items naturally have Intellect on them, enough that you don't need to go out of your way to say, enchant a weapon to get more. You are conflating my statements and taking фекал out of context - or maybe you're trolling now who knows at this point.

 

 

pri·or·i·ty

prīˈôrədē/
noun
 
  1. a thing that is regarded as more important than another.

 

Good luck out there.

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Is this real life?  We're debating intellect stacking vs spell power?  Almost all items that a shadow priest will equip will have spell power and intellect.  If you (killerduki) wan't to have a zero intellect off hand more power to you. The rest of your items will have SP and intellect.  My god the level of bullshit is amazing.   

 

  

There are plenty of other forums to troll theory craft man.  

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I don't understand why the moderators deleted the two posts made by me and Asphycsia containing pictures instead of text. The pictures were perfectly recreating our reactions on Killerduki's posts. If the moderators think this is a sensible discussion in ANY way, which is not, fine, but stop deleting posts that are related to the discussion. It's not spam or off-topic.

Also, the so called freedom of speech should not allow someone to spread fabricated and erroneous information. This is why people react harshly sometimes. Enough attention to Kilerdoki now.

Edited by cryofsorrow

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I don't understand why the moderators deleted the two posts made by me and Asphycsia containing pictures instead of text. The pictures were perfectly recreating our reactions on Killerduki's posts. If the moderators think this is a sensible discussion in ANY way, which is not, fine, but stop deleting posts that are related to the discussion. It's not spam or off-topic.

Also, the so called freedom of speech should not allow someone to spread fabricated and erroneous information. This is why people react harshly sometimes. Enough attention to Kilerdoki now.

 

I nearly didn't respond because I felt you had said what I felt with pictures. Glad I did reply, that's pretty ridiculous. Like I said above - this фекал has been settled for over a decade so your replies were perfectly legitimate forms of communication. Sad. Oh well moving on~

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9.Mana required for X duration of fight:
(starting from 51 seconds rule which is Base Stats+Consumes)

51 Seconds = 6708 Mana
60 Seconds = 7890 Mana
70 Seconds = 9198 Mana
80 Seconds = 10512 Mana
90 Seconds = 11826 Mana
100 Seconds = 13140 Mana
110 Seconds = 14454 Mana
120 Seconds = 15768 Mana
240 Seconds = 31536 Mana

10.Maximum Mp5 Required for infinite duration of fights to replace completely Intellect: 657

11.Intellect required for X duration of fight:
(starting from 51 seconds rule which is Base Stats+Consumes)
(2 Minutes is from 74 seconds rule because of twice consumes used)

51 Seconds = 0 Intellect (120 Base+0)= 120 Intellect
60 Seconds = 79 Intellect (120 Base+79)= 199 Intellect
70 Seconds = 166 Intellect (120 Base+166)= 286 Intellect
80 Seconds = 253 Intellect (120 Base+253)= 373 Intellect
90 Seconds = 341 Intellect (120 Base+341)= 461 Intellect
100 Seconds = 428 Intellect (120 Base+428)= 548 Intellect
110 Seconds = 516 Intellect (120 Base+516)= 636 Intellect
120 Seconds = 604 Intellect (120 Base+604)= 724 Intellect
240 Seconds = 1405 Intellect (120 Base+1405)= 1525 Intellect

12.Notes:

- We can see now how much Mp5 (or) Intellect is required for X duration of fight in order to make our +Spell Damage scale Maximum by it's Spell Damage coefficient for the duration of time explained.
- Keep in mind that you don't need full amount of Intellect or Mp5 explained if you combine it together, you need to find your own Balance between both.
- Explanation for 240 Seconds is the final and maximum cap for Intellect (anything more than that is wasted and have 0 value).


13.Outside and random calculations included (Warning it can be confused because they don't explain their roles):

level 60 Priest

120 Intellect
137 Spirit
2956 Mana

142 Base Damage Mindflay per tick
142 Shadow word: Pain per tick

full boost Shadow word: Pain 206 Damage per tick
full boost Mind Flay 206 Damage per tick

31 Intellect = 465 Mana

1.3 Mind Blast per 31 Intellect
2.2 Mind Flay per 31 Intellect

131 Damage by Mind Blast = 18 DPS
154 Damage by Mind Flay = 51 DPS
198 Damage by Shadow Word: Pain = 8 DPS

Mind Blast 350 Mana , Mind Flay 205 Mana , Shadow Word: Pain 470 Mana.

31 Spirit 120 Sec = 60 mana = 0.17 Damage by Mind Blast, 0.29 Damage by Mind Flay, 0.12 Damage by Shadow Word: Pain.
31 Spirit 110 Sec = 55 mana = 0.15 Damage by Mind Blast, 0.26 Damage by Mind Flay, 0.11 Damage by Shadow Word: Pain.

120 Seconds = 69 (each 10 seconds minus 10) 110 = 59 , 100 = 49 , 90 = 39 , 80 = 29 , 70=19, 60= 9

Mind Flay = 6 Seconds = 1398 Damage, Mind Blast = 9 Seconds = 1020 Damage , Shadow Word: Pain 24 Seconds = 1652 Damage.

70= -2 Ticks Shadow Word: Pain = -413
60= -5 Ticks Shadow Word: Pain = -1032.5

163.5 Seconds

6.2 Mp1

36

1800 Mana = 26% reduce time

1275 Mana = 3.6 Mind Blast,6.2 Mind Flay,2.7 Shadow Word: Pain

131.4 mp1second.
60 seconds = 1182 Mana
70 seconds = 2490 Mana
80 seconds = 3804 Mana
90 seconds = 5118 Mana
100 seconds = 6432 Mana
110 seconds = 7746 Mana
120 seconds = 9060 Mana
240 seconds = 21076 Mana

"Details Matter" <Make Shadow Priest Great Again> <3

Hope you like it , have a nice day wink.png

 

/Kind regards Killerduki

Edited by killerduki

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Updated with precise calculation and reasons why and how stuff goes exactly.

Waiting for GM's so i can edit my 2nd post with them ;)

 

/Kind regards Killerduki

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Seriously can you just stop posting or atleast keep yourself to the Paladin forums where your half-baked theorycrafting can sit. It is a horrible horrible misrepresentation of how someone should be looking at gearing their caster. Stop trying to present this as a legitimate outlook on stat values. Are you going to show up in the mage and warlock forums and tell them that Int is their most important stat too?

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Moral of the story: get 15 000 intellect or 657 mp5. :lol:

I am afraid that second post disapproved everything you said with evidence and proved my claim.

If you don't like it , we agree to disagree and i welcome you to go on your direction so i can continue my direction helping those who are willing or want to learn the different way of the coin ;)

 

There is full explanation how Spell Damage and Intellect scale for Shadow Priest with ratio and duration, no point to argue for something proven.

 

/Kind regards Killerduki

Edited by killerduki

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Actually all your posts have done is prove how seriously flawed your idea of theorycrafting is. It is quite pathetic.  The idea of basing your theorycrafting on a naked lvl 60 toon is laughable. If you actually want to theorycraft properly you do it using the stats your typical priest would have for the content. IE if you are doing patchwerk you are not going to bring a character that hasn't done anything in MC, etc. As a side note you fail to acknowledge that any sane person is not going to wear all green +shadow damage gear. It is a bullshit assumption you are making in order to skew the theorycrafting (if you can call it that) to your advantage. The typical gearing progression doesn't work that way. When you actually want to theorycraft properly then maybe you should be allowed to post. Until then I urge the mods to delete this thread of asinine crap that killerduki spews.

 

Since i actually included text this time maybe the mods will see fit to not delete my post because it accurately describes any rational person's thought when they look at the utter idiocy of killerduki's "theorycraft"

 

b3cc282c1e0c721384572e6f9e5987956c251957

 

And on that note....im going to stop comment because it is quite clear that you lack the fundamental knowledge of how to theorycraft and im going to assume the mods don't give a фекал about you putting these half baked theorycraft threads out there to mislead players.

Edited by Asphycsia

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This is pure Troll-craft.  This premise relies on a foundation that consist of a shadow priest having the 15% mana t2 set.  

 

 

 

 

 

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This is nice and all.. But not really helpful, it just seems so unnecessary.. Yeah...

*puts imaginary glasses back on, tilting the head forward in a frowning manner*

Edited by majory200

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Spell Penalty Explained here : http://wowwiki.wikia.com/index.php?title=Spell_power&oldid=271051

 

October 3, 2006

 

Additional effects

 

Spells with additional effects (like slow) get a 5% penalty to benefit. This penalty is applied before other penalties and to the base calculation for the spell.

 

((Cast Time of Spell / 3.5 ) - .05 Penalty for extra effect) / 3 = Benefit

 

Examples of these spells include: Entangling Roots (Druid), Mind Flay (Priest), Blast Wave (Mage)

 

This is good for Bugtracker in case they are not working properly.

 

/Kind regards Killerduki

Edited by killerduki

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So, some people were talking about shadow priest things on discord and of course Killerduki shows up to spread his misinformation. He links us to this wonderful thread for 'proof' he is right. He is not right, mostly, and here is my post from there explaining why intellect is never better than spell power, except in extremely rare situations.

 

I hope the Elysium staff deletes this entire thread and mutes Killerduki as he is doing nothing but harm by spreading all of this misinformation.

 

--

 

(Original discussion about Nefarian as a new guild taking 15 minutes to kill led to this)

 

Given the 15 minute duration earlier, assuming infinite mana, assuming no mind blast because it is very inefficient, you would cast SWP, then 8 mindflays per rotation. This rotation would be repeated 35.29 times and each rotation costs 2110 mana, or 74,461 total, a figure impossible to reach by any means. With these rotations you would cast a total of 282.32 mindflays, and 35.29 SWP.  
 
The figure given earlier of 30 int vs 30 spell power is not a great figure to use since you get into partial casts. I chose 27 int which is 5 mana short of 2 full mindflays, close enough. 27 spell power yields 12.42 damage per mindflay, and 32.4 damage per SWP. With the total counts listed above, this is 4,649 damage. 2 mindflays is 852 damage. This is the total damage gain over 15 minutes for both 27 int and 27 spell power. With these figures we can scale the fight to see how they compare in realistic situations. 
 
Obviously you cannot sustain this rotation for 15 minutes, so let's look at it as a ratio. 852 is 18.326% of 4649. This means that at 18.326% of the fight is when intellect could conceivably be equal, since damage is then equal. 18.326% of 900 seconds (15 min), however is merely 165 seconds, or 2.75 minutes, well within the time frame of sustainability via consumables. This means intellect can truly never be better than spell power with this rotation, because the damage difference is so large, that it requires a short fight to break even with intellect. Fights of this length are in no danger of running oom if using an efficient MF/SWP rotation, as you would use 13,651 mana. This is possible with max consumables.
 
Introducing Mind Blast increases total damage dealt moderately, due to fast cast time, but at a high cost of efficiency. The rotation would be SWP MB MF MF MB MF MF MB MF MF, wait half sec, repeat. This rotation is slightly shorter, 24 seconds. This rotation would be repeated 37.5 times to make 900 seconds and cost 2750 mana per rotation, and 103,125 in total. Again this is unsustainable. The spell count is 225 MF, 112.5 MB, 37.5 SWP. Total bonus damage from 27 spell power is 5254. Looking again at ratios, 852 damage from mind flay is just 16.216% of 5254. That percentage of a 900 second fight is 146 seconds. 146 seconds is 6.08 rotations and 16,720 mana.
 
Now here is where it gets a little murky, because Killerduki is correct, within certain circumstances, that int is stronger than spell power. The reason for this, is that I believe it impossible to have a total of 16,720 mana in 2.43 minutes with which to maintain this rotation (without serious outside help, multiple innervates, mana tides).
 
So what does this mean? This rotation cannot make it to the 146 second mark to equal spell power, it is actually higher dps, BUT it is only higher dps for precisely the cast time of those two mind flays. After this point the priest would be stuck mostly wanding and waiting for mana cooldowns. This is a VERY NARROW window where killerduki is correct.
 
But before we end this, let's remember this is factoring only base spells and 27 int and 27 spell power. The DPS difference between these rotations with base spells is 40.32 (218.52 - 178.2) or 18.45% in favor of the Mind blast rotation. Mind blast has a lower coefficient than Mind flay, so the mind flay rotation will scale 1.78% better, and is 23.27% more mana efficient.
 
"OK, give me the TLDR!" Killerduki is wrong in all but a very narrow range of possibilities. To gear as he does, he has to know precisely when the boss will die and also be at precisely zero mana in order for his method to be superior. At the efficiency he is working with, it will soon be a moot point, as most fights in AQ and especially Naxx, will require a lower dps, but more efficient rotation in order to keep casting. Spell power is nearly always better than int. THE END.

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