Practice Dummy HP modification

[Taurior 2]

Hey guys!

 

I am not sure if it has been done already on nost, so I would like to suggest to modify the HP of Practice Dummies(Theramore and Undercity). By default they only have 64hp, which makes them useless(I personally think about 500k hp would be a good amount)

 

Why?

The reason I want to have their HP boosted is so I can test certain items/mechanics(item procs, glancing blows etc.)

 

I do not believe this will affect the gameplay negatively in any way.

 

I would like to know what you guys think,if you have any questions or remarks, please let me know.

 

EDIT: They would also have to be boosted to lvl 63 in order to be able to test glancing blows, I thought they were already lvl 63, it seems that this is not the case.

 

Regards,

 

Taurior

Edited December 18, 2016 by Taurior

[Xykaru 1]

Sounds reasonable assuming when you attack practice dummies your damage shown is limited to 64. I don't use practice dummies though, so I wouldn't know. I'm more into practicing on Gnomes.

[Taurior 2]

Who doens't like to kill some gnomes xD

 

What is the reason for the 64 damage cap on your hits when attacking the dummies? That way you will not be able to test glancing blows

[Rakesh 2]

Not Blizzlike.

[Xykaru 1]

Not Blizzlike.

Technically there's a LOT of stuff that won't be Blizzlike - you just won't notice it unless you remember Vanilla as it was particularly well.

[Rakesh 2]

Yes but the projects goal is to get as close as possible to original vanilla and not away from it.

[Xykaru 1]

Yes but the projects goal is to get as close as possible to original vanilla and not away from it.

Agreed. I don't see any harm in making test dummies show actual damage taken though. At the same time, who uses dummies? Go duel somebody or hunt down some enemies in WPvP.

[Rakesh 2]

For one the harm would come from using this as precedent of non-blizlike quality of life improvements witch would lead to asking for others.... look where retail has gone with this, it all started with "small" & "innocent" changes.

[Aslan 0]

I have mixed feelings. I would love to have target dummies with more hp or even with higher lvl, on the flipside, the quality of life improvement is true, even though it would only affect the 0.001% of the playerbase that would care for such empircal research. Currently you would need a tank, a healer and an uncontested Anachronos... multiple times.

[Xykaru 1]

For one the harm would come from using this as precedent of non-blizlike quality of life improvements witch would lead to asking for others.... look where retail has gone with this, it all started with "small" & "innocent" changes.

I am all for the core vanilla experience.However, giving invulnerable targets more HP doesn't make a lick of difference.

 

There's been addons out there for this since the dawn of time anyways.

[Taurior 2]

Yes but the projects goal is to get as close as possible to original vanilla and not away from it.

I believe they hotfixed DM so that you can't get easy gold there anymore, this is not blizzlike, yet has been done to enhance the experience(correct me if I'm wrong).

 

The only real difference between nost and blizzlike in this case would be that you do not get a tank and a healer to test procs/glancing blows on the dragon in tanaris.

 

The reason I want to test glancing/procs is to see what values Nost has chosen for certain procs, and how exactly they scripted Glancing blows, There is mixed information on how it actually worked, with the most accurate being chance depending on enemy level and dmg reduction starting at 35% to 0% depending on wep skill( 300 for 35% reduction and 0% at 315 if nost uses the Athan formula). This is what I want to test, and on retail vanilla this didn't have to be tested since it was already Blizzlike

 

 

 

For one the harm would come from using this as precedent of non-blizlike quality of life improvements witch would lead to asking for others.... look where retail has gone with this, it all started with "small" & "innocent" changes.

 

I am confident that the Elysium staff will not change anything on their servers that will harm the vanilla experience. If you want to have the full blizzlike experience you would also have to ban a ton of addons that just were not out at that time. and you'd have to force people to backpaddle more since that was done in vanilla too, so I do not think that this is a valid reason not to change something this small 

[Undertanker 88]

As long as it is the dummies in like in Theramore or where ever the horde ones are at, I don't see an issue with this.   Just as long as the engineering ones are still low HP, as that can be game breaking.   A person can bring one out before a boss, and warrior get full rage, rogues get 5 points for opening fight full slice and dice, and all people that have one can spawn there: Blackblade of Shahram

[Taurior 2]

As long as it is the dummies in like in Theramore or where ever the horde ones are at, I don't see an issue with this.   Just as long as the engineering ones are still low HP, as that can be game breaking.   A person can bring one out before a boss, and warrior get full rage, rogues get 5 points for opening fight full slice and dice, and all people that have one can spawn there: Blackblade of Shahram

Yea, only the Theramore Practice Dummy and Undercity Practice Dummy( I believe both places have 3 dummies standing next to eachother ), on my own mongos server which I use to test my addons it's as easy as changing a value in the Mysql database. so I believe this should be a rather easy and low time cost change.

[dvergur 0]

For one the harm would come from using this as precedent of non-blizlike quality of life improvements witch would lead to asking for others.... look where retail has gone with this, it all started with "small" & "innocent" changes.

Nah, it started with larger modifications which were supposed to "justify" an expansion, rather than just adding content. Personally, I don't play vanilla for all the broken stuff, but rather the overall feel. They could so easily have kept the vanilla flavour, by not making fundamental changes frivolously, throughout the expansions and just released new content and people would have loved it. фекал, we're still playing the SAME content all those years later after all.

[Storfan 24]

Slippery slope, not blizzlike. No.

 

Any modification that takes us away from blizzlike is a cancerous rot that will destroy the game gradually, no matter how small, insignificant or "quality-of-life" it is.

 

NO, NO and NO!

[Undertanker 88]

#DMNorthHunters #ZGFarming

[Aslan 0]

Well its still true, even if you dislike these hotfixes, thats no excuse to go further and further. Obviously its far from an accurate classic server, but that doesnt mean there is a freepass to change everything even more (its already half broken, lets hulk smash).

Id argue that these hotfixes were somewhat needed because otherwise the game wouldnt work anymore (back in the day 1 guy did it, nowadays everyone does it).

 

I guess it would be best if we didnt boost the target dummies hp, because I would be the next guy to ask them to increase their lvl to 61, 62, 63 if they did the first change .

[Rageflakes 0]

It's been manageable without dummies for all these years, don't see why they would implement this all of a sudden. As seen above people will immediately start crying about "blizzlike".

[Taurior 2]

Slippery slope, not blizzlike. No.

 

Any modification that takes us away from blizzlike is a cancerous rot that will destroy the game gradually, no matter how small, insignificant or "quality-of-life" it is.

 

NO, NO and NO!

 

Care to give me a reason why it is bad? the reason "It's not blizzlike" is a bullshit reason in my eyes, if you want blizzlike you better backpaddle, make the server lagg, have a player cap on each realm, no more new addons made after 1 dec 2006? I believe. and so on. The fact is that this is not the same as old-school vanilla, there is a lot more information out there, there is mixed information out there, there are more addons than back then. You can't expect that everything is working the same as back then, and to test that Practice Dummies is the only real way to find out if something is not working like it did back then. 

 

And about the QoL improvements that ruined retail, name me one QoL improvement as small as this that ruined retail, there's none. because the QoL that ruined wow are much bigger than having people test out mechanics on a server which has the possibility to have wrong mechanics.

 

Having Practice dummies with more HP will result in people being able to test those mechanics, and if they find a bug they can report this. Let's say for example that a weapon has a procrate of 10% on nost, but back in the day it was 5%, would you not want to have this fixed asap?

Another example: A certain proc is supposed to be able to proc on Hamstring, but a player has the suspision that this is not working. He can then test it out at the target dummy to see if his suspisions were right. and if they are he can report this bug, making the game more blizzlike. 

It may be a tiny bit off from retail vanilla but it will help to make it closer to retail vanilla.

 

I get that people want to have nost as blizzlike as possible, but keep in mind that this server is not perfect and certain things have to be tested which was not needed in retail vanilla. And as I said before, nost staff will not make adjustments to their server unless it's something they feel is right.

[Storfan 24]

Care to give me a reason why it is bad? the reason "It's not blizzlike" is a bullshit reason in my eyes, if you want blizzlike you better backpaddle, make the server lagg, have a player cap on each realm, no more new addons made after 1 dec 2006? I believe. and so on. The fact is that this is not the same as old-school vanilla, there is a lot more information out there, there is mixed information out there, there are more addons than back then. You can't expect that everything is working the same as back then, and to test that Practice Dummies is the only real way to find out if something is not working like it did back then. 

 

And about the QoL improvements that ruined retail, name me one QoL improvement as small as this that ruined retail, there's none. because the QoL that ruined wow are much bigger than having people test out mechanics on a server which has the possibility to have wrong mechanics.

 

Having Practice dummies with more HP will result in people being able to test those mechanics, and if they find a bug they can report this. Let's say for example that a weapon has a procrate of 10% on nost, but back in the day it was 5%, would you not want to have this fixed asap?

Another example: A certain proc is supposed to be able to proc on Hamstring, but a player has the suspision that this is not working. He can then test it out at the target dummy to see if his suspisions were right. and if they are he can report this bug, making the game more blizzlike. 

It may be a tiny bit off from retail vanilla but it will help to make it closer to retail vanilla.

 

I get that people want to have nost as blizzlike as possible, but keep in mind that this server is not perfect and certain things have to be tested which was not needed in retail vanilla. And as I said before, nost staff will not make adjustments to their server unless it's something they feel is right.

 

 

1. Many un-blizzlike suggestions arent bad in and of itself, but the main point of Nostalrius was to mimic EVERY SINGLE ASPECT of vanilla AS CLOSE AS TECHNICALLY possible, meaning blizzlike is PRIO #1 and takes precendence over QoL.

 

2. Lag and server-caps was not inherent features of vanilla but symptoms of lacking hardware/software/available connections, this is not the case anymore. (I do understand you ment this with a bit of sarcasm)

 

3. Addons do not modify game API, meaning new creation of addons today does not violate the blizzlike-goals that the server has. Why Decursive was banned by Blizzard, despite it only using resourses within the API is beyond me.

 

4. Dummys are not needed because you can test procs on banished mobs in Blasted Lands, and if those are not available you can just run proc-watch or any other addon while doing a 40man raid against raid-bosses.

 

5. I wont name a QoL-improvement that ruined retail because that is beside the point. As pointed out in #1, they main goal is to replicate vanilla as far as possible, meaning no modifications to the vanilla-formulae. No ifs, no why, just replicate as close as possible.

 

6. If you dont like the idea of keeping vanilla pure, without the rot and pollutants that small QoL-modifcations bring, then by all means return to Kronos with their practice dummies and lower respecs, or p2w Feenix-Warsong with their buyable gear.

 

 

TLDR: If you dont want to play on a replica of vanilla, there are PLENTY of "fun" servers out there.

Edited December 9, 2016 by Storfan

[dvergur 0]

5. I wont name a QoL-improvement that ruined retail because that is beside the point. As pointed out in #1, they main goal is to replicate vanilla as far as possible, meaning no modifications to the vanilla-formulae. No ifs, no why, just replicate as close as possible.

 

6. If you dont like the idea of keeping vanilla pure, without the rot and pollutants that small QoL-modifcations bring, then by all means return to Kronos with their practice dummies and lower respecs, or p2w Feenix-Warsong with their buyable gear.

5. Have the devs stated that it was their goal to mimic vanilla, faults and all?

6. Comparing these small changes that don't fundamentally change the game to your examples is completely unfair and just shows that you're not confident in your arguments.

I personally feel like they should fix the many problems with vanilla, but I can imagine that it would be hard to decide what is a problem and what is not. I would fix things that I feel that the original devs would have, given the time and resources, but ultimately it's up to the current devs to do what they like.

Edited December 9, 2016 by dvergur

[Aslan 0]

6. Comparing these small changes that don't fundamentally change the game to your examples is completely unfair

Is it? Classic wow: Make a tank and a healer like you that much that they go to tanaris with you to beat up a lvl 63 dragon so you can run an addon. They tank and heal while you go afk auto-attacking the dragon, after a mere 200k hp, you wait for the respawn and continue. What do you think, how many players do this? Now on the other side, if you could simply afk auto attack something in a capital city... Yes it does change the game as in: it makes it available for everyone. Things being available for everyone are not special, there is no reward to it, you cant pick with whom youd share the information anymore.

 

I personally feel like they should fix the many problems with vanilla, but I can imagine that it would be hard to decide what is a problem and what is not.

Exactly.

 

I would fix things that I feel that the original devs would have

Wouldnt that be TBC in the end?

[Taurior 2]

 

1. Many un-blizzlike suggestions arent bad in and of itself, but the main point of Nostalrius was to mimic EVERY SINGLE ASPECT of vanilla AS CLOSE AS TECHNICALLY possible, meaning blizzlike is PRIO #1 and takes precendence over QoL.

 

2. Lag and server-caps was not inherent features of vanilla but symptoms of lacking hardware/software/available connections, this is not the case anymore. (I do understand you ment this with a bit of sarcasm)

 

3. Addons do not modify game API, meaning new creation of addons today does not violate the blizzlike-goals that the server has. Why Decursive was banned by Blizzard, despite it only using resourses within the API is beyond me.

 

4. Dummys are not needed because you can test procs on banished mobs in Blasted Lands, and if those are not available you can just run proc-watch or any other addon while doing a 40man raid against raid-bosses.

 

5. I wont name a QoL-improvement that ruined retail because that is beside the point. As pointed out in #1, they main goal is to replicate vanilla as far as possible, meaning no modifications to the vanilla-formulae. No ifs, no why, just replicate as close as possible.

 

6. If you dont like the idea of keeping vanilla pure, without the rot and pollutants that small QoL-modifcations bring, then by all means return to Kronos with their practice dummies and lower respecs, or p2w Feenix-Warsong with their buyable gear.

 

 

TLDR: If you dont want to play on a replica of vanilla, there are PLENTY of "fun" servers out there.

 

 

You're missing the point...

 

The exact reason I want the dummies to have more HP is to test if the scripts ARE blizzlike vanilla. to do this you need thousands of hits. just hitting a mob for 30 minutes is not going to give you accurate data, doing this on a banished mob will not work as you will need a warlock banish every 30 seconds. and that's only working for proc % etc, testing Glancing blows or testing wether certain bonuses affect certain procs etc will not work on a banished target(Using flask to improve poison dmg or for example Deathbringer proc) 

 

So I say this again, I want to keep the vanilla experience, which is exactly why I want the dummies to have boosted HP.

 

Another option would be to have a test realm open where you can test such things but that would be anything but ideal for either side.

 

As a side note, it is not the goal of the nost staff to " mimic EVERY SINGLE ASPECT of vanilla AS CLOSE AS TECHNICALLY possible"  as I already stated before,they do make improvements to their server that were not implemented in retail vanilla (DM) They maybe want to make it as close as possible to retail vanilla, but if it means having a better gameplay quality they will make adjustments.

[Shayss 43]

I'm pretty sure Storfan just solo shut you down Taurior.

 

Just sayin, maybe it isn't worth arguing at this point.

[Storfan 24]

5. Have the devs stated that it was their goal to mimic vanilla, faults and all?

6. Comparing these small changes that don't fundamentally change the game to your examples is completely unfair and just shows that you're not confident in your arguments.

I personally feel like they should fix the many problems with vanilla, but I can imagine that it would be hard to decide what is a problem and what is not. I would fix things that I feel that the original devs would have, given the time and resources, but ultimately it's up to the current devs to do what they like.

 

5. Yes, atleast Nostalrius-devs (most of whom has transfered to Elysium). One exception would be +3% hit enchant for ranged weapons that in vanilla gave melee hit aswell but this was removed with AQ-release, Nostalrius made it "fixed" from the start. There are probably other exceptions. For the record, I didnt agree with that decision, in my mind they should've kept 3% hit for melee until AQ-release, perhaps there were technical reasons for it.

6. By "fix the many problems with vanilla", do you also mean making all class specs raid-viable? Balancing PvP between all classes? Where do you draw the line here? It's better to set a HARD and FIRM precedent here, which is what Nostalrius devs has done and I hope they will continue to do.

 

You're missing the point...

 

The exact reason I want the dummies to have more HP is to test if the scripts ARE blizzlike vanilla. to do this you need thousands of hits. just hitting a mob for 30 minutes is not going to give you accurate data, doing this on a banished mob will not work as you will need a warlock banish every 30 seconds. and that's only working for proc % etc, testing Glancing blows or testing wether certain bonuses affect certain procs etc will not work on a banished target(Using flask to improve poison dmg or for example Deathbringer proc) 

 

So I say this again, I want to keep the vanilla experience, which is exactly why I want the dummies to have boosted HP.

 

Another option would be to have a test realm open where you can test such things but that would be anything but ideal for either side.

 

As a side note, it is not the goal of the nost staff to " mimic EVERY SINGLE ASPECT of vanilla AS CLOSE AS TECHNICALLY possible"  as I already stated before,they do make improvements to their server that were not implemented in retail vanilla (DM) They maybe want to make it as close as possible to retail vanilla, but if it means having a better gameplay quality they will make adjustments.

"Servant of Allistarj" is a "banished" invulnurable mob in Blasted Lands that people in vanilla would hit for long stretches of time in order to test proc-rates in various abilities, items and lvl wep-skill. These fill the same function as a practice-dummy would.