PVE DPS Human vs. Night Elf

[Maez 4]

Does anyone have a DPS difference between these races for rogue? (actual numbers)

 

I'm assuming that rogues use a fast weapon in the offhand for poisons, which means sword/dagger or mace/dagger for Human.  Nightelf would likely be able to use dagger/dagger or Any/dagger for combat.

 

Someone said somewhere on the Warrior forum that the dmg difference between Human and other races for fury was ~15%, but I would guess that means sword/sword.  So is it a 5-10% boost?  Is there gear to make up for it without gimping myself too much?

[Xemni 0]

Humans have a DPS advantage over other races, but its negligible. The additional weapons skills increase things like hit and crit, and reduce glancing blows. However, with that said, its a MINOR advantage.

If you're in a hardcore progression guild, then you may consider running human and sticking with the weapons that the race specializes in, but if you're just doing a regular play through, any race is fine. 

I forget the math, so unfortunately, I can't really leave any, but iirc its not a 15% boost in DPS. I don't even think its a 5% boost. At least not for rogues. 

There is gear that can offset the advantage without gimping your character, but weapon skill is what would equate to expertise in later expansions, and isn't something you can TOTALLY make up alone with hit if I recall correctly. 

[Maez 4]

From the warrior Forum: wrathchild1971's post.

On 1/12/2017 at 11:45 PM, wrathchild1971 said:

hello all! first post here, just wondering if one of you tryhards have poured out the data on roughly how much dps one would lose at BIS end game raiding if you arent human for the sword skill racial. thanks guys!

 

On 1/13/2017 at 1:10 AM, Undertanker said:

14.82% for BWL current patch.

This being said, I doubt the difference would be that high for rogues, and for non-human you can at least play daggers without feeling like you're gimping dmg.

Edited January 18, 2017 by Maez

[Xemni 0]

I don't have time to actually read through this thread i'm linking entirely, I have to go paint a house we just bought, but this thread contains some numbers regarding what the additional weapon skill can do with a rogue. 

https://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=33547&sid=f5a5a26f71216ed133e7ef9eb220a60b&start=10

 

[Maez 4]

27 minutes ago, Xemni said:

I don't have time to actually read through this thread i'm linking entirely, I have to go paint a house we just bought, but this thread contains some numbers regarding what the additional weapon skill can do with a rogue. 

https://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=33547&sid=f5a5a26f71216ed133e7ef9eb220a60b&start=10

 

Okay, so you get 15% base increase in damage on glancing blows, plus a 1% reduction in chance to be dodged/blocked/parried by the mob.  Unless I'm understanding that wrong.

This is according to the last post in that thread and the formula: "The base chance for your attack to be dodged by the mob is: 5% + (Defense Skill - Weapon Skill)*.1%" from http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Weapon_skill

Edited January 18, 2017 by Maez

[Haestingas 30]

As a rogue its not as big a deal compared to a warrior for 2 reasons. 1 is you only generate extra damage while warriors do extra dmg and get extra rage on top. 2 is you get 5 sword skill from talents, and a lot of weapon skill benefits are frontloaded in the first 5 points.

You can also figure that any rogue with MH sword + maladath is only 1 skill off of a human from the glance cap which is fairly negligible.

[Maez 4]

12 minutes ago, Haestingas said:

As a rogue its not as big a deal compared to a warrior for 2 reasons. 1 is you only generate extra damage while warriors do extra dmg and get extra rage on top. 2 is you get 5 sword skill from talents, and a lot of weapon skill benefits are frontloaded in the first 5 points.

You can also figure that any rogue with MH sword + maladath is only 1 skill off of a human from the glance cap which is fairly negligible.

I see, so being human would only be a slight benefit up until you get Maladath, then it's a tossup.  Extra stealth level and 1% dodge might not be terrible for leveling...

[davfer 0]

Unless elysium changed the weapon skill formula nost used the cap is 315 not 310

[jorg 0]

The difference is not negligible. I am playing a NE Rogue in a Semi-Hardcore guild and I am 5% dmg or more behind the other human rogues on damage and that's WITH maladath.

For each + weapon skill you get the following: 

Your chance to miss decreases by 0.04%.
Your chance to score a critical hit increases by 0.04%.
Your opponent's chance to block your attack decreases by 0.04%.
Your opponent's chance to parry your attack decreases by 0.04%.
Your opponent's chance to dodge your attack decreases by 0.04%.

The thing is even if you obtain maladath and aquire +9 weaponskill, you will lose the other potensial stats from the OH weapon human uses, i.e ZG OH with faster wep speed for more poison procs and +40 AP, Brutality blade with AP + crit. If you do decide to go daggers, you are required to go Aged cored leather gloves from MC through the entire game(even with dagger from C'thun), and again you will lose alot of stats from better gloves, i.e tier 3 gloves. But as stated in previous comments, it is totally fine going NE/Gnome/Dwarf rogue if you don't care about ranking on Realmplayers or being top dps in your guild. 

*Maladath is useless for humans seeing as the total + dps increase from 310-315 is far worse than going a faster OH with better stats. 

Edited January 19, 2017 by jorg

[Haestingas 30]

The majority of the benefit from weapon skill is increasing your glancing blow damage, which is capped at 310 from the research I've done. He is correct about the miss, crit hit, parry,block, dodge stuff, but being human increases all that by 5x, which ends up being an overall 1% increased chance to land an attack. He is definitely correct in that later on using a maladath will be a problem, especially when you get access to things like iblis. The only weapon that performs a similar function to Maladath is The Hungering Cold off of KT.

 

 

[Slicy 11]

2 hours ago, Haestingas said:

The majority of the benefit from weapon skill is increasing your glancing blow damage, which is capped at 310 from the research I've done. He is correct about the miss, crit hit, parry,block, dodge stuff, but being human increases all that by 5x, which ends up being an overall 1% increased chance to land an attack. He is definitely correct in that later on using a maladath will be a problem, especially when you get access to things like iblis. The only weapon that performs a similar function to Maladath is The Hungering Cold off of KT.

 

 

Your research are wrong. Someone just explained that the formula used on Nostalrius, which should be exactly the same here, is based on 315 weapon skill cap. The difference between 310 and 315 in terms of % of damage reduced upon glancing is completely marginal however.

All in all it's a little edge you'll have if you're human. In the end, it won't matter because you are easily able to outperform and compensate it as NE/Dwarf/Gnome if you try hard just a little bit more than other rogues. 

Any raiding guild (including the "hardcore / top end" ones) will always value higher an outstanding (understand excellent performances, dedicated and with the proper raiding attitude) NE/Dwarf/Gnome than an average Human rogue. And this extends to every other class and race as well.

[Haestingas 30]

Define completely marginal, im curious to what the math is if its 315 for glance cap.

[davfer 0]

If I remember correctly

300>305 = 65% to 85% glancing blow dmg

305>310 = 85% to 95%

310>314 = 95 to 99.25%

[Slicy 11]

Athan's formula (my bad if I worded it wrong):

Source is one of the testers of Nostalrius when it was in Beta. This formula was considered to be the closest to retail values and appears way more logical regarding the defense of a lvl 63 mob. Other projects are using a formula not making any sense at all.

With 315 you are basically looking at 5% more damage on your glancing blows (40% of your white swings which are around 50% of your total damage output).

I'll let you decide whether or not it is wise to go for Maladath - which should be given first to fury warriors and then NE/Dwarf/Gnome rogues  already using a proper sword in any guild using a brained way of distributing item drops anyways - as human and having 310 weap skill.  

 

Edited January 21, 2017 by Slicy

[Netherfrost 1]

Im not really aware whether its the same we have on Anathema currently. If you wanna see the original test at retail check http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/wowwiki/images/9/9e/GlancingReduction.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20060801063552

1 - (5*(pow(2,(victimDefenseSkill/5) - (attackerWeaponSkill/5) - 1))/100)
Min: 0.6500
Max: 1
where pow(2, X) = 2^X

Is what Nost was using 3-4 months into release. Im not sure whether some dude touched it afterwards I looked at it. This one with a 1- "formula"/100 to make it more clear.

As far as on topic goes; if you want it for RP reasons, just take your pick.
As alliance, If you want the highest dmg output, go human, ESP If you wanna go autist r14. If you're on AQ patch (using daggers), go NE for attributional stats +dodge. If you're feeling daggery and constantly using engineering pets on a blizzlike server, go gnome. (+15 skill makes pet 63 and no glancing).

Whether its worth replacing an item with weaponskill, in change of another with higher basic stats, depends a lot. Just use ie soyoens spreadsheet and check the difference. You cant decide these matters with adjectives or napkin math.

Edited January 21, 2017 by Netherfrost

[Slicy 11]

If anyone cares enough to do some testing on how it works it here with fat sample size...

For RP reasons you will also need Nightmare Blade to go with it for ultimate dw swag and that juicy 70 armor.

Chickens (unless u make it die and it becomes KFC) are every races' best friends !

[Netherfrost 1]

1 minute ago, Slicy said:

If anyone cares enough to do some testing on how it works it here with fat sample size...

For RP reasons you will also need Nightmare Blade to go with it for ultimate dw swag and that juicy 70 armor.

Chickens (unless u make it die and it becomes KFC) are every races' best friends !

Just study properly uploaded legacy logs and youre gucci