Horde Mage Beerwizzard ninjas Stockade Pauldrons

[Beerwizzard 13]

8 часов назад, Yojoo сказал:

Stockade Pauldrons seem to be on the AH for roughly 450g at the moment. For Beerwizzard, they are, in fact, worth LESS than 450g. 450g is going to be the MOST he will ever get, in money, from selling that item. He's losing money every day from AH fees, and time out of the day spent managing auctions or asking around in Trade chat. If he can't move the item over a long span of time, it could become obsolete as new content comes out, slashing its value. 

I sold this item fr 400g right after leaving a dungeon group (pure 400g without any extra tax). At the next day the ah price came down to 350g  so according ur logic  i got more than the market value?

The reality is that the ah price is not the final price. You can always  /w and trade with a seller to get a better offer, ppl usualy accept it. The market value is the price at which an item would traded. No matter how and where. In a competitive market it changes all the time and the amount of golds someone sold / bought it is only my business.

8 часов назад, Yojoo сказал:

Meanwhile, for Mokes, the Pauldrons are worth MORE than 450g.

Do you even realize how ridiculous and retardet this is? If no then pls pm me the whole list of you property. I'm sure i could find something that worth for me more :)

8 часов назад, Yojoo сказал:

Mokes will gain more than 450g worth of an upgrade immediately by using those pauldrons, as would any plate tank for whom they are an upgrade. 

Unfortunately it wouldnt visibly change his tanking value in LBRS.

[Beerwizzard 13]

4 часа назад, Yojoo сказал:

It's pretty clear from the screenshots that the other two players rolled need after Beerwizzard did, with the intent to give it to Mokes if they won. They were trying to prevent a ninja loot situation. Unsuccessfully. 

The only one who passed an item was warrior's guildmate.Why the others rolled items? Duno and no one could say what would they do if they get it but they had the same rules as me.

[Oakenlix 79]

9 hours ago, Yojoo said:

Your proof being your own logic is pretty flaky, and frankly, it's not logically consistent. 

See, value is relative. It's a basic economic reality (I only took a handful of econ classes in college, so feel free to condemn my use of terminology, but my point should stand). The value of a given item is ABSOLUTELY DIFFERENT between different individuals, regardless of what the posted price for it at the Auction House may be. 

There's nothing relative about value, because we're talking about tradable items. As long as you can exchange something for gold and vice versa, market value is the real objective value, because it determines the availiability of items. Let me make an example too.

 

Tank likes The Item because it's an upgrade for him. Not only stats, but also the looks. In fact, he likes it so much he would pay 500 gold to buy it. And Rogue doesn't care about stats and looks, but he likes gold. He would like to sell it even for 300 gold. Now that's where you say "See, the value is relative, Tank likes The Item so much and values it more, while Rogues doesn't". But wait a minute, we'll see.

Now, both Tanks and Rogue go to Auction House and search for The Item, and they see the lowest price on it is currently 400 gold. So, objectively, this item is availiable to buy or sell for this amount of gold no matter how much you like/need/want it. So Rogue puts it up for 400 gold, and Tank buys it for 400 gold. 

So later in a raid group (notice Tank accidentally disenchanted The Item and needs it again), both Tank and Rogue see a drop of The Item. Tank knows that if he gets The Item by roll, he won't have to spend 400 gold again to buy it. Rogue also knows, that if he wins, he can sell it for the same 400 gold. No matter how much more Tank "relatively" loves The Item than Rogue, its eqivalent in gold is the same for them, and so is the value.

9 hours ago, Yojoo said:

In game example:

Stockade Pauldrons seem to be on the AH for roughly 450g at the moment. For Beerwizzard, they are, in fact, worth LESS than 450g. 450g is going to be the MOST he will ever get, in money, from selling that item.

Hold on. If 450g is the current lowest price, it doesn't mean Beerwizzard can't sell it later at a higher price than that. It also doesn't mean he can't put it for the same 450g right now for someone to buy it. And it's not just Beerwizzard. For someone who wants to buy Stockade Pauldrons (Mokes for example) it's worth the same 450g.

10 hours ago, Yojoo said:

Meanwhile, for Mokes, the Pauldrons are worth MORE than 450g. They are worth more for ANYBODY wanting to use it. Otherwise, why they hell would they spend their money on it? Any purchase is an investment, and any investment is not worthwhile unless a greater return is expected. Mokes will gain more than 450g worth of an upgrade immediately by using those pauldrons, as would any plate tank for whom they are an upgrade. 

Whatever amount Mokes or other tank is ready to pay for Pauldrons, he doesn't have to pay any more than the market price at which it's availiable. So if he gets Pauldrons from by roll, he doesn't save himself 1000 gold he was ready to spend for it. He saves himself exactly 450g. Same amount that Beerwizzard gets from selling them.

 

 

 

[YesthisisDog 2]

This thread is Amazing. 

[YesthisisDog 2]

On Retail, i ran into a similar, going to call it "problem" where i skinned a pristine hide of the beast, and the entire party demanded i give it to the player of their choice, because he "needed" it. 

Seriously, BoE epics are "everyone needs" same with non-bop flask recipes, epic patterns that don't soulbind. if the winner wants to give them to someone because they're going to equip? Great. but i'm not giving someone 500-1k gold out of the goodness of my heart, so they don't have to spend it on a BiS item. 

[Beepy 1]

Weird thread, Both sides have a point.

Fact is pugs are pugs. You play with people you dont know and in such a high populated servers you might never run into each other again. No one is obliged to do you any favors and you shouldn't expect it also.

The item in question is boe. Everyone can go buy it from the AH right now if they really need and want to. Or can farm the gold for it.

What Beerwizard did isn't rare or uncommon in a pug environment. The Stockade pauldrons after selling are for him his Bloodvine set for example.

Personally i wouldn't do what Beerwizard did as i do find it a bit douchy but that's just me and the way i approach the game. I wouldn't flame him as a ninja also though since he has every right to roll and win the item. Gold has the same value for everyone and BoEs are just that.

I understand the tanks pov also it isn't easy for him to farm gold at the same pace as a mage but on the other hand as i said on pug environments you shouldn't expect anything. In your eyes it was tanking shoulders in his eyes it was 400g and 3-4 gear upgrades.

To much drama for something that happens pretty often. Make the loot rules clearer on your next runs to avoid such mishaps and move along imo.

Edited February 5, 2017 by Beepy

[Cephei 8]

I like the fact that people are still arguing about this when there is only one argument that really matters: This game is dictated by mob rule. Most of us subscribe to need = use. Therefore, that's the defacto standard, whether you like it or not. Therefore you either follow it, or you end up like Beerwizzard, who's still without a guild as of now. Logic has absolutely nothing to do with it.

It's your choice really. 

[Beepy 1]

42 minutes ago, Cephei said:

I like the fact that people are still arguing about this when there is only one argument that really matters: This game is dictated by mob rule. Most of us subscribe to need = use. Therefore, that's the defacto standard, whether you like it or not. Therefore you either follow it, or you end up like Beerwizzard, who's still without a guild as of now. Logic has absolutely nothing to do with it.

It's your choice really. 

You are wrong though. Most decent players and well established guilds on every server private or back in the retail days are gonna tell you that IF nothing was agreed in advance BoEs are ffa in a pug environment.

Let me give you an example also.

Have you ever passed on a travelers backpack? If you haven't everything you say is hypocritical. I never seen someone pass personally and why should they. The thing is in AH for 8-9 g everyone can go pick it up at will.

Mob rule doesn't apply also on this thread btw. There are more then 300 replies and many of them vary. Which on its own proves how grey the specific issue is. Arguments have been made from both sides and well written and constructed ones.

Its purely a difference in PoV. I dont even know the guy in question hell i wouldn't even do what he did. But i dont consider him a ninja and i wouldn't try to shut him down from pugs or guilds. He acted in a way that's reasonable for his own mindset and many share his opinion.

Clear rules on pugs are mandatory and you should start using them.

Edited February 5, 2017 by Beepy

[Beerwizzard 13]

23 минуты назад, Cephei сказал:

I like the fact that people are still arguing about this when there is only one argument that really matters: This game is dictated by mob rule. Most of us subscribe to need = use. Therefore, that's the defacto standard, whether you like it or not. Therefore you either follow it, or you end up like Beerwizzard, who's still without a guild as of now. Logic has absolutely nothing to do with it.

It's your choice really. 

Any differenerence between being in casual guild and not being in a guild? :) Why you still think you somehow ruined my life? If you realy want it then i would ask you again to try harder :)

If you talking about guild i just didn't find any suitable for me, thats not your achievement. I promise.

[Yojoo 2]

3 hours ago, YesthisisDog said:

On Retail, i ran into a similar, going to call it "problem" where i skinned a pristine hide of the beast, and the entire party demanded i give it to the player of their choice, because he "needed" it. 

Seriously, BoE epics are "everyone needs" same with non-bop flask recipes, epic patterns that don't soulbind. if the winner wants to give them to someone because they're going to equip? Great. but i'm not giving someone 500-1k gold out of the goodness of my heart, so they don't have to spend it on a BiS item. 

I didn't play enough Vanilla back in the day to run into Pristine Hide drama, but from what I recall (feel free to correct me), it was always a unique case without a good answer. It was a one-of-a-kind item requiring ten people to get it, yet only the skinner was able to physically produce it, so there were always huge arguments over proper etiquette in how to handle looting it. I don't think a good answer ever arose.

Simple need-before-greed on BoEs was another matter, though. That's been "solved" for a decade. 

[Yojoo 2]

12 minutes ago, Beepy said:

You are wrong though. Most decent players and well established guilds on every server private or back in the retail days are gonna tell you that IF nothing was agreed in advance BoEs are ffa in a pug environment.

Let me give you an example also.

Have you ever passed on a travelers backpack? If you haven't everything you say is hypocritical. I never seen someone pass personally and why should they. The thing is in AH for 8-9 g everyone can go pick it up at will.

BoEs being FFA in pugs was never my experience, playing on and off from 2005 to about 2012. 

Traveler's Backpack isn't a gear upgrade. 

 

Edit: Except in cross-realm PUGs, where people assumed that they'd never see the other players again. That shit was the wild west. Do we want Elysium to be the wild west? I thought part of the appeal of playing on one of these private servers was to recapture the spirit of community that WoW kinda lost over time. Placing your own wallet over your Pugmate's upgrade seems like it's contrary to that goal. 

Edited February 5, 2017 by Yojoo

[Beepy 1]

21 minutes ago, Yojoo said:

BoEs being FFA in pugs was never my experience, playing on and off from 2005 to about 2012. 

Traveler's Backpack isn't a gear upgrade. 

 

Edit: Except in cross-realm PUGs, where people assumed that they'd never see the other players again. That shit was the wild west. Do we want Elysium to be the wild west? I thought part of the appeal of playing on one of these private servers was to recapture the spirit of community that WoW kinda lost over time. Placing your own wallet over your Pugmate's upgrade seems like it's contrary to that goal. 

The backpack isn't a gear upgrade. Its exactly the same case though. I am surprised you dont see it. You need it because its 9g regardless if someone else really needs and its commonly accepted that its ok to need it. Why? Because the backpack is available in AH 24/7 and everyone can go buy it from there. Why is it different with those shoulders? They are right there in AH if you want you can go buy them right away.

IF they where running Strat and tome of conjure food dropped which is valued at 200-250 on Anathema (not sure about ely prices) would the tank and the rest pass on it in favor of the mage who might actually need it? Are you sure about it? Are you 100% sure about it? Or it would be ok to roll for it since its valued at such a high price?

Pugs are pugs as i said. You aren't sure about anyone you act and roll according to that,

Also the population isn't the same as it used to be. People have grown a thicker skin after years of retail and things like LFG LFR etc... Cant undo that even if we play on private servers it will never be the same as back on launch. Not to mention you play on a realm with 4 or 5 X the population of a high populated Vanilla retail realm which a priori makes the bonding and sense of community lower compared to Vanilla days.

As i stated twice already btw i would probably not even greed for the shoulders i would pass on them if i saw someone needing because i am an old school player that knows how to farm gold quick and easy. But what they doing to this guy now for 13 pages is ridiculous and unfair.

Edited February 5, 2017 by Beepy

[Yojoo 2]

10 minutes ago, Beepy said:

The backpack isn't a gear upgrade. Its exactly the same case though. I am surprised you dont see it. You need it because its 9g regardless if someone else really needs and its commonly accepted that its ok to need it. Why? Because the backpack is available in AH 24/7 and everyone can go buy it from there. Why is it different with those shoulders? They are right there in AH if you want you can go buy them right away.

IF they where running Strat and tome of conjure food dropped which is valued at 200-250 on Anathema (not sure about ely prices) would the tank and the rest pass on it in favor of the mage who might actually need it? Are you sure about it? Are you 100% sure about it? Or it would be ok to roll for it since its valued at such a high price?

Pugs are pugs as i said. You aren't sure about anyone you act and roll according to that,

Also the population isn't the same as it used to be. People have grown a thicker skin after years of retail and things like LFG LFR etc... Cant undo that even if we play on private servers it will never be the same as back on launch. Not to mention you play on a realm with 4 or 5 X the population of a high populated Vanilla retail realm which a priori makes the bonding and sense of community lower compared to Vanilla days.

Honestly yeah, the way I've always played the game would dictate that I'd pass a mage tome to the mage, despite its value. I'd make damn sure he used it right away, though. 

Look, I see the logic of everybody rolling need on BoEs, I just can't agree with it. It's contrary to the etiquette that was always used in my presence the entire time I played retail, minus cross-realm PUGs. Cross-real PUGs don't exist on Elysium, obviously. So, what are we to do?

These are yet the early days of this server. Assuming it sticks around, I'd prefer it to be a server where mutual gear improvement is still the primary goal of instances, PUG or otherwise, and where we're willing to let others get the gear they need ahead of our own desire to make money. I won't bullshit you all by claiming I know what the common opinion is on this server, but my strong guess would be that most people feel the same. I've had several BoEs drop in my brief time on Elysium, and my PUGs have always allowed priority to go to the person for whom the item is an actual gear upgrade, and that's without any prior discussion of loot rules. 

Edit: Didn't mean to ignore the backpack. My point was this: Gear DOES have relative value, because a warrior tank looking to raid utilizes those Pauldrons while a mage does not. Backpacks are truly universal. As are things like rare mount, pets, and other non-combat items. When it comes to actual gear, the system has always been to prioritize people that will equip and use those items. 

Edited February 5, 2017 by Yojoo

[Oakenlix 79]

39 minutes ago, Yojoo said:

My point was this: Gear DOES have relative value, because a warrior tank looking to raid utilizes those Pauldrons while a mage does not. 

While that is true, a mage can turn this gear into gold (which has universal value) which further can provide him with a gear upgrade equal to how pauldrons would upgrade warrior's gear.

39 minutes ago, Yojoo said:

Look, I see the logic of everybody rolling need on BoEs, I just can't agree with it. It's contrary to the etiquette that was always used in my presence the entire time I played retail, minus cross-realm PUGs.

I see why that is, but think about this way. A group, working together, gets a drop of a valuable item. Is it not against the etiquette to make everyone pass it to a single player who didn't nesessarily contribute the most but just happens to be able to equip it, instead of providing each member of the group with equal chances of getting it? 

To reiterate myself, I do believe everyone rolling "Need" on any BoE would be a more fair system. 

 

Edited February 5, 2017 by Oakenlix

[WorldPeas 3]

This thread gave me cancer.

People have a different opinion on something big deal. But going ahead and trying to ruin his reputation is just plain sad. 

I have no problem with what Beer did. I would have done the same and many in my guild agree with my point of view. Its how it was on NA Blackrock back in the day. 

I've also passed loot to randoms and guildies alike. . Not because I didnt need it but because I felt like it at the time. 

I've read all 13 pages and regardless of my opinion on how to loot rare BoEs I would avoid grouping with OP and Cephei (his guildy/buddy) purely for the fact of how they handled it as self entitled butthurt loot police.

[Justme 9]

When a blue or epic BOE drops or when a BOE drops thats used for crafting everyone needs. (greens are usually just greeded because reasons)

It's common and nice to sell it on the spot for a reduced price (market value - AH cut) if someone in that group needs it for gear upgrade

Edited February 6, 2017 by Justme

[Oxblood 5]

On 2/5/2017 at 10:59 AM, Beepy said:

Let me give you an example also.

Have you ever passed on a travelers backpack? If you haven't everything you say is hypocritical. I never seen someone pass personally and why should they. The thing is in AH for 8-9 g everyone can go pick it up at will.

Back in Vanilla, as well as when I've played with all NA people on Nostalrius you would need if you still didn't have 4, if they were for a bank they were Greed.

There is a point to having both a need and a greed roll. If it is something that will directly benefit the toon then you roll need on it. If it is something that has an ulterior purpose (Sell for gold, DE for Mats, AH) then you greed.  This Russian run server is the first I have ever experienced where people are so greedy as to roll need on all Traveler's Backpack. I honestly think, judging from the language used in this thread that it breaks down to a cultural difference.

[Cephei 8]

The best way to treat Need and Greed is this:

Pretend pressing Need soulbounds the item to you if you win, Greed doesn't.

That's it. If you live by that rule, you'll do everything right.

[Oakenlix 79]

51 minutes ago, Cephei said:

The best way to treat Need and Greed is this:

Pretend pressing Need soulbounds the item to you if you win, Greed doesn't.

That's it. If you live by that rule, you'll do everything right.

And why is that the best way?

[Justme 9]

BOEs have more value to a person equipping them then to a person selling them.

Example: Assuming Plate BOE is worth 400g; A mage can't sell this Plate BOE and then use this money to buy a Cloth BOE worth 400g.

[Beerwizzard 13]

7 минут назад, Justme сказал:

A mage can't sell this Plate BOE and then use this money to buy a Cloth BOE worth 400g.

Why?

[Justme 9]

Just now, Beerwizzard said:

Why?

The mage would lose direct gold from using the AH or he'd lose gold indirectly by spending time trying to sell it without the use of the AH.

 

[Beerwizzard 13]

Только что, Justme сказал:

The mage would lose direct gold from using the AH or he'd lose gold indirectly by spending time trying to sell it without the use of the AH.

 

If the item worth 400g then it worth 400g.

If the ah price is 400g then it worth 380g. Nothing stops you from asking a seller for a 5% discount and buy it for the same 380 gold.

[Cephei 8]

4 hours ago, Oakenlix said:

And why is that the best way?

Because this is a WoW Vanilla server and not a tea party anarcho capitalist pipe dream. See picture for reference:

[Beerwizzard 13]

45 минут назад, Cephei сказал:

Because this is a WoW Vanilla server and not a tea party anarcho capitalist pipe dream. See picture for reference:

So everything should go like this?

Edited February 7, 2017 by Beerwizzard