Horde Mage Beerwizzard ninjas Stockade Pauldrons

[Beerwizzard 13]

49 минут назад, Justme сказал:

Still spending time tho. Time the warrior wouldn't spend.

Not that it matters.

It doesn't matter at all.

Edited February 12, 2017 by Beerwizzard

[Briar 0]

This is an interesting thread.

I have no idea where this mentality came from, the one prevailing here, as it didn't exist 10 years ago. Not on my server, anyway. This is a very telling sign of the times. Back on a smaller server, this wouldn't happen. You could argue it however you wanted, but the blacklist was real. There are a lot of reasons for why communities were stronger '05-'07, but watching people play WoW these days confirms to me that Blizzard fucked up by trying to give too much to too many.

Now everyone thinks they're entitled to roll N simply because they G, and have rationalized N into G so that "they're the same!" making the whole N/G system useless. All because a bunch of people can't sit by while purples go to another and need a reason to justify their rolling to satisfy their avarice. That's all this super long, "oh, I'm so rational, why can't you guys get my 2+2, purples = $$$ argument" is for, imo.

This game was better when <5% of the player base experienced level 60 content.

[Oakenlix 79]

6 hours ago, Briar said:

Now everyone thinks they're entitled to roll N simply because they G, and have rationalized N into G so that "they're the same!" making the whole N/G system useless. All because a bunch of people can't sit by while purples go to another and need a reason to justify their rolling to satisfy their avarice.

It's hilarious how all the things you're mentioning apply to people who think they're entitled to get a BoE item just because they can equip it right away, so they can't bear other people getting it instead and need a reason to justify their greed.

 

6 hours ago, Briar said:

That's all this super long, "oh, I'm so rational, why can't you guys get my 2+2, purples = $$$ argument" is for, imo.

Can you prove it wrong though? Can you? :)

[Numeta 4]

Roll need on all Boe's

 

Just because it drops does not mean you get it. All boes sell. Welcome to WoW cry baby

[Justme 9]

You should only roll need on boe if you need the gold.

Greed if you don't need the gold.

Pass if you don't want the item.

Edited February 14, 2017 by Justme

[Numeta 4]

Don't listen to this cuck ^

[Justme 9]

16 minutes ago, Numeta said:

Don't listen to this cuck ^

What would you suggest?

[Evilknevil 0]

Instead of thinking of BoE's as items one should think of them as gold. Why does the warrior have priority on 500g over the rogue, who could trade it for some devilsaur pieces? And does this mean, that only warriors can win the lottery in Dire Maul (A Quel'serar drop)?

That being said, I have always waited to see what the rest of the group rolled/agreed upon after the drop of a BoE before rolling myself.

[alkovirus 0]

I know I defended Beerwizard, but I'd like to give you the other side of the coin on this matter.

First and foremost you don't want to pick fights with your faction tanks (unless they are utter scrubs, then its fine as you won't have much use for them anyway)

As for looting system, usually you can tell what loot rules the party is using, simply by waiting few seconds with the roll and seing how other people, who don't need that boe roll.

if you are the first to roll need on Forror's Compendium of Dragonslaying as a non warrior/paladin then you are a lootwhore and a douchebag.

there are so many ways to farm gold in this game, but very few to get BiS gear.

don't be a douchebag is my general rule for any party loot

 

remember that rules are set on the go, as the server and community progresses.

in this particular case majority vote about whether rolling need is ok or not is irrelevant, as majority of players on elysium are retail scrubs or just noobs who you wouldn't want to team up with anyway.

if you gonna get blacklisted by all the decent players on this server then u might as well reroll

Edited February 14, 2017 by alkovirus

[Justme 9]

You have to ask yourself what question you're being asked.
Is the question "Is this item as valuable to me as it is to the others?"

Or is the question
"Do I want to equip this specific item?"

? ? ?

[debrye 0]

Bump 

[Beerwizzard 13]

I wish i could stick this thread at the head of the general discussion page :((

[Briar 0]

On 2/21/2017 at 4:48 PM, Beerwizzard said:

I wish i could stick this thread at the head of the general discussion page :((

It's a pretty epic thread, can't lie.
I didn't give it a look until 15+ pages thinking to myself, "Still??"
I see why it's so divisive.

 

On 2/13/2017 at 3:54 PM, Oakenlix said:

It's hilarious how all the things you're mentioning apply to people who think they're entitled to get a BoE item just because they can equip it right away, so they can't bear other people getting it instead and need a reason to justify their greed.

 

Can you prove it wrong though? Can you? :)

 

 

 

 

 

I like your reasoning in #1, however, if you follow it along it completely invalidates N/G. Not by means of a slippery slope, but simply by virtue of everyone defaulting to one option out of two. SINCE N/G is a thing, equipping it right then is, philosophically, the right avarice to satisfy (acknowledging that the avarice cake is split 5 ways). 

 

"Can you prove it wrong though? Can you? :)"

Facetiously setting me up under flawed pretenses. It's not a matter of proving you wrong. It's a matter of doing right by the system in place. I'm not ignoring your 1/5 slice of avarice, I'm using the system given to us (N or G) for its intended purpose. Again, acting on behalf of the lowest common denominator (1/5) not only makes N/G pointless, it advocates rolling N on BoP because vendor price. All it takes is a Whiskeywarrior to come along and ninja some shit under those pretenses, then we can have another epic ninja loot thread. 

I think why your thread is so long is because it speaks to the philosophy of N/G vs the lowest common denominator of 1/5. One could argue that N/G was put in place to make rolling on BoP easier (pretty sure that's why it manifested, via boss loot dramaz before N/G existed), thus it doesn't apply to BoEs. To that I point to the just-clearly-stated-defintion-of-N, "If I win, I'm going to equip this right now or when level appropriate", and the same reason why it shouldn't apply to BoEs is the same reason that the philosophy of 1/5 should be applied to BoP, "This may be BiS for you, but my epic mount isn't going to farm itself."

What then? You want to lose your raid item to someone that intends to vendor it and have that be justified by this precedence?

Any semblance of trust among could-be-friends (and the unique fun of finding awesome boe shit you can wear) is gone. I can acknowledge that some folks will slip through the cracks... while some will cheat (saw a guy equip green gloves to roll N on a BoE blue, inspected him again after the final boss fight... wearing Gloves of Holy Might, as an aside, I won and equipped the blue), but if the mistrust becomes such that everyone starts inspecting everyone before/during rolling on shit, then, "I will equip this right now" justifies and makes a valid place for N.

Edited February 22, 2017 by Briar

[Trummp 0]

On 1/27/2017 at 7:57 AM, Crixx said:

How is this considered Ninja? He was in the group and won a roll, move on, you got your chance on rolling.

High. Value. BOEs.  He won the roll.  Move on chumps 

[Justme 9]

Nobody needs money. If you need it to buy something it''s greed. If you were gonna buy it from the AH and it drops now it's also greed.

EVERYONE should roll greed on BOE. Needing a BOE makes no sense.

[Into 3]

On 2/14/2017 at 6:50 AM, Numeta said:

Roll need on all Boe's

If this was truly the rule, if the game was intended for everyone to roll Need (definition: to wear) even if they wanted it for Greed (definition: to sell) then it wouldn't give everyone the pop-up window choice. Everyone would just automatically be entered into the roll without asking.

On the other hand, it seems bad design for Blizzard to have made it possible for a mage to roll Need on plate armor anyway. Classes which couldn't conceivably use the item should only have been given the option to Greed or Pass. Plate-wearers, in this case, should have had the choices of Need, Greed, or Pass.

By designing the game this way, Blizzard has created 13 years of arguments back and forth (both sides with good points) with no end in sight since we'll still be playing 1.12.1 for the next thirty years. At least I will!

[Oakenlix 79]

12 hours ago, Briar said:

I like your reasoning in #1, however, if you follow it along it completely invalidates N/G. Not by means of a slippery slope, but simply by virtue of everyone defaulting to one option out of two. SINCE N/G is a thing, equipping it right then is, philosophically, the right avarice to satisfy (acknowledging that the avarice cake is split 5 ways). 

Forgive me in advance if language barrier made me misunderstand some of your points, but yes, I do think that with BoEs, greed button is useless. N/G system is useful for BoPs though, so I don't see how it gets invalidated. All I'm saying is that everyone needing on a BoE is driven by the same kind of avarice, each of party members would benefit equally so everyone should have equal chances for that item (which means rolling need).

 

12 hours ago, Briar said:

"Can you prove it wrong though? Can you? :)"

Facetiously setting me up under flawed pretenses. It's not a matter of proving you wrong. It's a matter of doing right by the system in place. I'm not ignoring your 1/5 slice of avarice, I'm using the system given to us (N or G) for its intended purpose. Again, acting on behalf of the lowest common denominator (1/5) not only makes N/G pointless, it advocates rolling N on BoP because vendor price. All it takes is a Whiskeywarrior to come along and ninja some shit under those pretenses, then we can have another epic ninja loot thread. 

I think why your thread is so long is because it speaks to the philosophy of N/G vs the lowest common denominator of 1/5. One could argue that N/G was put in place to make rolling on BoP easier (pretty sure that's why it manifested, via boss loot dramaz before N/G existed), thus it doesn't apply to BoEs. To that I point to the just-clearly-stated-defintion-of-N, "If I win, I'm going to equip this right now or when level appropriate", and the same reason why it shouldn't apply to BoEs is the same reason that the philosophy of 1/5 should be applied to BoP, "This may be BiS for you, but my epic mount isn't going to farm itself."

What then? You want to lose your raid item to someone that intends to vendor it and have that be justified by this precedence?

I am continuously challenging people to prove "tradable item = money = same need for everyone" point to be wrong simply because it would make arguing a lot easier. You would come up with some arguments, I'll then try to prove it wrong and we go from there. I do, however, believe, that one can't argue against this point because it's true, and no one yet has proven it wrong.

The thing about system is, it's not nesessarily optimal as many people believe it is. We all know vanilla isn't perfect. And we also know all the definitions of Need and Greed in the context of WoW are made by someone. But what I'm arguing about is not someone's opinion or how the system of rolling in WoW was designed to work. I'm not arguing how it's supposed to work, I'm arguing how it should work from the logical point of view. You can see, then, how definitions of Need and Greed and arguments like "You only need items to equip it, if you sell it its greed" are irrelevant. People have thrown many definitions of need and greed, but they don't matter because there's clear game mechanics tied to these buttons and it speaks for itself. If you press Need, you will roll with others who did the same. If you press Greed, you will only roll if nobody pressed Need. That's it. So Need button is a "high priority" need, while Greed button is a "low priority" need. And I don't believe that some people should have a higher priority over the rest when it comes to BoE drops.

Note that no one in this thread has said that everyone should roll "Need" on BoPs too, that's because it makes no sense. Everyone agrees that if someone needs an item more than the rest group members, then he should get it. This is not the case with BoEs, everyone needs it equally, therefore everyone rolls need. But with BoP everyone doesn't need it equally, which is again, something everyone agrees on. You can't get the same value from BoP that you can't equip than someone who can. So hope we're clear on that.

12 hours ago, Briar said:

Any semblance of trust among could-be-friends (and the unique fun of finding awesome boe shit you can wear) is gone. I can acknowledge that some folks will slip through the cracks... while some will cheat (saw a guy equip green gloves to roll N on a BoE blue, inspected him again after the final boss fight... wearing Gloves of Holy Might, as an aside, I won and equipped the blue), but if the mistrust becomes such that everyone starts inspecting everyone before/during rolling on shit, then, "I will equip this right now" justifies and makes a valid place for N.

You have described very well the problems people face with the so-called N/G system. These problems are gone if everyone just agreed to roll Need on any BoEs. If group members agree they roll Need on BoEs, there's no room for fucking someone over like that. Everything is clear, you either win the roll or you don't. There's no room for distrust or suspicion.

That's because N/G is a restrictive system that says you shouldn't roll Need on BoEs you can't equip. Well what if I do? Others are screwed. N/G relies on trust, but it's difficult to rely on people in your pug group. Everyone rolling Need on BoEs isn't restrictive, you don't have to trust each other and it makes things much easier. 

 

Edited February 23, 2017 by Oakenlix

[Justme 9]

4 minutes ago, Oakenlix said:

Forgive me in advance if language barrier made me misunderstand some of your points, but yes, I do think that with BoEs, greed button is useless. N/G system is useful for BoPs though, so I don't see how it gets invalidated. All I'm saying is that everyone needing on a BoE is driven by the same kind of avarice, each of party members would benefit equally so everyone should have equal chances for that item (which means rolling need).

 

I am continuously challenging people to prove "tradable item = money = same need for everyone" point to be wrong simply because it would make arguing a lot easier. You would come up with some arguments, I'll then try to prove it wrong and we go from there. I do, however, believe, that one can't argue against this point because it's true, and no one yet has proven it wrong.

The thing about system is, it's not nesessarily optimal as many people believe it is. We all know vanilla isn't perfect. And we also know all the definitions of Need and Greed in the context of WoW are made by someone. But what I'm arguing about is not someone's opinion or how the system of rolling in WoW was designed to work. I'm not arguing how it's supposed to work, I'm arguing how it should work. You can see, then, how definitions of Need and Greed and arguments like "You only need items to equip it, if you sell it its greed" are irrelevant. People have thrown many definitions of need and greed, but they don't matter because there's clear game mechanics tied to these buttons and it speaks for itself. If you press Need, you will roll with others who did the same. If you press Greed, you will only roll if nobody pressed Need. That's it. So Need button is a "high priority" need, while Greed button is a "low priority" need. And I don't believe that some people should have a higher priority over the rest when it comes to BoE drops.

Note that no one in this thread has said that everyone should roll "Need" on BoPs too, that's because it makes no sense. Everyone agrees that if someone needs an item more than the rest group members, then he should get it. This is not the case with BoEs, everyone needs it equally, therefore everyone rolls need. But with BoP everyone doesn't need it equally, which is again, something everyone agrees on. You can't get the same value from BoP that you can't equip than someone who can. So hope we're clear on that.

You have described very well the problems people face with the so-called N/G system. These problems are gone if everyone just agreed to roll Need on any BoEs. If group members agree they roll Need on BoEs, there's no room for fucking someone over like that. Everything is clear, you either win the roll or you don't. There's no room for distrust or suspicion.

That's because N/G is a restrictive system that says you shouldn't roll Need on BoEs you can't equip. Well what if I do? Others are screwed. N/G relies on trust, but it's difficult to rely on people in your pug group. Everyone rolling Need on BoEs isn't restrictive, you don't have to trust each other and it makes things much easier. 

 

You're wrong. Greed on boe isnt useless. Its the need button thats useless.

[Oakenlix 79]

4 hours ago, Justme said:

Nobody needs money. If you need it to buy something it''s greed. If you were gonna buy it from the AH and it drops now it's also greed.

EVERYONE should roll greed on BOE. Needing a BOE makes no sense.

Just now, Justme said:

You're wrong. Greed on boe isnt useless. Its the need button thats useless.

Hey, sometimes your posts make it difficult to get your point, while this post is just simply dumb.

You do realize there's no difference between everyone rolling Need and everyone rolling Greed, except the latter allows someone to fuck everyone up by rolling Need instead? Dude, hope you're trolling. 

[Justme 9]

So you press need for gold instead of greed because youre afraid someone will roll need on it? 

Thats like having a gun to protect yourself from people with guns logic

[Oakenlix 79]

30 minutes ago, Justme said:

So you press need for gold instead of greed because youre afraid someone will roll need on it? 

Thats like having a gun to protect yourself from people with guns logic

Hey, I don't really wanna derail this thread into retarded zone again. I press need for gold because I need it as much as everyone else, and it's better than greed because it prevents the possibility of a fuck up. Your comparison with guns is flawed because in WoW, everyone has this "gun" and can use it against you without any punishment. So yes, having a gun for yourself is a very good idea in that case.

 

Edited February 23, 2017 by Oakenlix

[Justme 9]

1 hour ago, Oakenlix said:

Hey, I don't really wanna derail this thread into retarded zone again.

I'd prefer if you used the medical term

 

1 hour ago, Oakenlix said:

 I press need...  ....because I need it as much as everyone else

Pressing need/greed/pass is a personal opinion. You shouldn't have to consider if you need it more then someone else. 

1 hour ago, Oakenlix said:

because it prevents the possibility of a fuck up.

It's a BOE. If someone accidently presses the wrong button just reroll and trade it to the winner.

 

1 hour ago, Oakenlix said:

 Your comparison with guns is flawed because in WoW, everyone has this "gun" and can use it against you without any punishment.

That's what blacklists are for. 

 

1 hour ago, Oakenlix said:

So yes, having a gun for yourself is a very good idea in that case.

Loot rules should be made before the group starts. if you hit need instead of greed because you don't trust the others then loot rules are pointless

[Oakenlix 79]

@Justme, sorry but I'm not gonna argue with you any further until you succeed in making any sense.

[Justme 9]

Couldn't care less. let's just agree to roll greed on BOE when we're in the same group.

[Oakenlix 79]

19 minutes ago, Justme said:

Couldn't care less. let's just agree to roll greed on BOE when we're in the same group.

Haha, well let me roll Need and you roll Greed, but if your roll is higher than mine, I'll sure give it to you. :P