Horde Mage Beerwizzard ninjas Stockade Pauldrons

[Hurricane2 2]

24 minutes ago, Cephei said:

Btw, I'm glad we had the poll on the other thread where the majority of people agree to leave Need rolls to upgrades, so this debate is done and done. As per the poll results, the default loot rules are need for usage > need/greed for selling.

If you run loot rules different than those, you need to explicibly state those, as requested multiple times in this thread.

Glad we could clear that up.

 

5 minutes ago, Oakenlix said:

How is this debate done because of the poll? You still haven't learned logic I see.

And yeah, even if our debate somehow depended on that poll... 40% to 60% is not a very dominant ratio of opinions, lol.

 

The debate was over long before the recent poll.  If you feel the need to use a different roll system than the logical one that blizzard set up then just notify your groups before hand that you don't believe in greed rolls and that you will be rolling need on equipment that you can't use.

[Cephei 8]

While the player will claim it's not because of this, I find comfort in still seeing this and the community at work. This was taken 10 seconds ago:

Edited March 17, 2017 by Cephei

[Oakenlix 79]

11 minutes ago, Cephei said:

It's enough to matter, that's a bigger ratio than most presidental elections and a lot more hinges on those.

It's enough to validate everyone who always knew that needing for selling wasn't the default or even a particularily popular stance to be on. It's nice to have some data confirming this. So yes, I know you reply to every single one of those threads like your life depended on it, but you got conclusively proven wrong here.

Proven wrong about what? I've never claimed that majority of players considers needing on BoE to be ok. So what exactly are you talking about?

11 minutes ago, Cephei said:

You even quoted me in the other thread on it because you thought the poll would go your way. 

Eh, no, I didn't. What I remarked was that the ratio of opinions is far from dominant, unlike some people were trying to imply.

 

 

Edited March 17, 2017 by Oakenlix

[Cephei 8]

1 minute ago, Oakenlix said:

Eh, no, I didn't.

Yes you did, see picture:

[Oakenlix 79]

4 minutes ago, Cephei said:

Yes you did, see picture:

If you think that implies that I expected the poll result to be different - well, I'm not surprised. You've never shown great logical abilities so far anyway.

15 minutes ago, Hurricane2 said:

 

The debate was over long before the recent poll.  If you feel the need to use a different roll system than the logical one that blizzard set up then just notify your groups before hand that you don't believe in greed rolls and that you will be rolling need on equipment that you can't use.

I don't quite see why you posted that. I'm perfectly aware that stating and following loot rules is a great idea, have I ever said otherwise?

[Hurricane2 2]

4 minutes ago, Oakenlix said:

I don't quite see why you posted that. I'm perfectly aware that stating and following loot rules is a great idea, have I ever said otherwise?

My point is if you plan on using the default looting system then you don't need to say so.  It's implied that if nothing is said beforehand then need will only be rolled on items that players are going to equip.  If you want to go with a different system then say something beforehand.

[Oakenlix 79]

Just now, Hurricane2 said:

My point is if you plan on using the default looting system then you don't need to say so.  It's implied that if nothing is said beforehand then need will only be rolled on items that players are going to equip.  If you want to go with a different system then say something beforehand.

Thats a valid point, but I prefer to just ask about the loot rules instead as a simpler way to avoid confusion.

[nooobieee 3]

2 hours ago, Hurricane2 said:

My point is if you plan on using the default looting system then you don't need to say so.  It's implied that if nothing is said beforehand then need will only be rolled on items that players are going to equip.  If you want to go with a different system then say something beforehand.

That isn't implied at all. What is implied by the implemented system is that if you can click the button... then you can click the button. If some unspoken rules were to be had, then there would be no reason to disable the button on BoP items you can't equip but leave it enabled for BoE items.

Edited March 17, 2017 by nooobieee

[Beerwizzard 13]

Holy crap! This thread is still alive. Well done! :) The bad thing is that i still havent seen any arguments against needing on boes, if i ever will hen i'll change my mind and  post an apologise. I think we should create a new thread where both sides will post their own or breaking someone else's statements. So new ppl won't have to read o mutch spam and we could keep this thread as a sign of your stupidity.

18 часов назад, Cephei сказал:

While the player will claim it's not because of this, I find comfort in still seeing this and the community at work. This was taken 10 seconds ago:

Seeing what? :)

Unfortunately the fact that there is no  pvp guilds on horde side is not your achievement. If you ever seen me applying to any guild then give me some screenshots.

I still communicate with ppl and ppl still willing to play with me. I have ingame friends and usually getting grp invites from different decent players. Also i have no problems with finding a dungeon grp when i need it.

The only fact that you think that you somehow punished me is making me laugh :)

[Hurricane2 2]

39 minutes ago, Beerwizzard said:

Holy crap! This thread is still alive. Well done! :) The bad thing is that i still havent seen any arguments against needing on boes, if i ever will hen i'll change my mind and  post an apologise.

You have a lot of rereading to do.

[Hurricane2 2]

16 hours ago, nooobieee said:

That isn't implied at all. What is implied by the implemented system is that if you can click the button... then you can click the button. If some unspoken rules were to be had, then there would be no reason to disable the button on BoP items you can't equip but leave it enabled for BoE items.

There's a need/greed/pass that is self explanatory.  They are not random buttons to click. They have the names they were given for a reason.

[Oakenlix 79]

42 minutes ago, Hurricane2 said:

There's a need/greed/pass that is self explanatory.  They are not random buttons to click. They have the names they were given for a reason.

The names of the buttons are irrelevant, its funny that you even use it as an argument. Regardless of what the buttons are called, there are game mechanics behind them, its all that matters. And those mechanics are: high-priority need, low-priority need and pass. I don't see how that could serve as an argument for either side.

 

PS: also its funny that people who say "gold is not a need, its greed" never care to elaborate why, or to back it up with anything other than their own perception.

Edited March 18, 2017 by Oakenlix

[Kayla 10]

BOE Ninjas are "everywhere" NM you can do.

[nooobieee 3]

5 hours ago, Hurricane2 said:

There's a need/greed/pass that is self explanatory.  They are not random buttons to click. They have the names they were given for a reason.

What is self explanatory is that you can't select need if the item is BoP but you can't use it. But you can on any BoE item.

[morganveen 2]

Just want to chime in here for a bit. Needing on a boe that is not relevant to your class/spec, proceeding to sell it for gold and buying the piece you needed is a totally acceptable way of using 'need' in my personal opinion. The fact that the item has a certain value makes it valuable to EVERYONE. Therefore, paying 300g (example) for a piece of equipment should be viewed as exactly the same as obtaining the item from a need roll. It is a very logical train of thought.

Now ofcourse, from the goodness of your heart or whenever you feel generous you may decide to 'let' the other guy take the item because it so happens it is a bis item for his current class/spec. But if you think it through that just means you are giving him 300g (example). At the same time you basically 'passed' on your own bis item.

It is NICE if you pass it to someone that has the spec and class for the item that just dropped, it would be a gift to said person, but in no way should that person feel entitled to get the item. He should realize he was just gifted a nice sum of gold.

This is such a logical train of thought, it is strange to see how people fail to see this reasoning.

Ofcourse, needing on a boe in a guildgroup or a group where there have been set rules regarding to loot and who gets it in advance, that would be considered ninjaing. As well as needing on soulbound items that aren't relevant to your class/spec, again, ninja, because those items hold no large value to the person that ninjaed it other than vendor gold.

[Skinnylatte 2]

This is not a ninja. It's been that way for years, to all need on crazy BOEs like this even sellable blues 

[Skinnylatte 2]

popular =/= right. BOEs like this are all need, everyone knows it. it prevents ninja'ing if everyone just needs. then if the "nice" (sucker) person wins and wants to give it to you, fine. but theres not a guarantee just because he is a warrior that he will equip it. the argument that you "make" them equip it right away is dumb, you can't "make" anyone do that. they can just leave. your membership in a group doesnt make you a supreme emperor. 

[Wrathran 4]

The default "rules" for need/greed is this:

Need = loot you will equip/learn and use.
Greed = loot you will sell or send to an alt.

By rules, I mean my opinion as there are no rules here really.

With that said. It's WRONG to call the mage in question a "ninja" when 5 players rolled need on the BOE item. I would agree that he is a ninja if he waited until the other 4 had rolled greed and then rolled need. To change the "rules" on the fly and have 5 players all roll need on a very expensive BOE loot is totally acceptable or even the best solution in my opinion.

Sometimes I write in chat before a run starts: "Loot rules, greed=sell, need=equip, all ok with that". That's the only way to be able to claim someone of being a ninja for clicking need when they sell the item. But even in those situations I would recommend to have all click need on very expensive BOE loot.

Maybe it would be better to just say when the run starts "need on all BOE loot and mats and sort it after if someone need" but the risk would be that someone needs on BoP loot maybe and would not be nice either.

On topic. I totally understand the warrior is upset and angry but I don't agree and I instead agree with the mage. 5 players all needed, it's fair for all. The warrior can buy the shoulders on AH. No rules was specified before the run started, so no rules was broken.

Edited March 19, 2017 by Wrathran

[Nosleep 4]

On 17/03/2017 at 3:07 PM, Oakenlix said:

You didn't raise any valid points, as I said, you literally just wrote a pile of crap, and now you want me to argue with that?

Alright, for the sake of entertainment, I'll do it, so listen up, you fuck.

And nobody ever claimed you do. What we are saying is that you have the same right to roll on a BoE as anyone else, no matter if it's a gear upgrade for you or not.

No, you couldn't. Learn something about logic before claiming to be able to follow it.

Yes, gold is a need.

Nobody is taking anything from anyone, it's a roll: you win or you lose.

Ways to farm gold are availiable to everyone. You can farm gold to buy your item upgrade same as I can.

Yeah? Prove it. Try to prove that the need for a gear upgrade has any priority over the need for equivalent amount of gold. You'll fail.

I find it very, very, very unlikely that on a realm like Elysium there are any BoEs that aren't availiable on AH for longer than a day, if at all.

Yeah, your logic is indeed crazy and stupid. It doesn't matter what you do after you win a BoE. Makes no difference whatsoever.

Once again, I present to you this idea: it doesn't matter what happens after the roll. It doesn't matter how you spend the gold you get from selling a BoE. It doesn't affect your right to roll for it, not by one bit. Why even would it? You may spend all of this to buy aquadynamic fish attractors, same as the guy who wins a gear upgrade might never even use it because he respecced/stopped playing/Disenchanted it by accident/etc. It doesn't matter.

What matters is the value you get from the drop. For BoEs it's equal for everyone, for BoPs it's not, how hard is this concept for you to grasp? You don't roll Need on BoP because whoever needs it for gear upgrade needs it more. You roll Need on BoE because everyone needs it equally.

Bullshit. Prove it. If gold isn't a need in this game, then nothing is.

You should be ashamed of your stupidity, dumbfuck.

 

 

Why so angry, you really are just nothing but insults.

and for the record, repeating your selfish subjective out of context point, doesnt prove it.

need in the greed/need roll context has been usage of the item in question, forever.... just because you can argue that you need gold for other things in the game, doesnt side step the obvious standard that has held since the beginning of wow.

 

so.. with that norm in mind, a norm that has held since vanilla retail, when someone says gold is not a need.. you stating that 'gold is a need' is playing semantics with a general principle held for 12 years in this game.

As soon as you say gold is a need = to gear upgrades, you open a can of worms allowing for any amount of gold to be a need. .. or do you have a subjective limit on where we draw the line?

need is when you need the item...... you dont need gold.. you want gold... gold is not needed to get most items, they can be farmed or the mats can be farmed .. but you want the gold (greed) because that is an easy way to get your fishing lures.. you dont need gold to get items.. you dont need gold for almost anything.... gold is greed

so because you are too lazy to go farm cosmetic RP gear and you want to buy it from AH .. you say that your need to be lazy is = to their need for the item in question that is a PVE upgrade.. remember, in group/raid instances.. greed/need on gear has been generally accepted to mean the item is what you need.. not its value.

the item in question being needed for PVE usage is 'need' .. and its value for either sale/alts/RP/fun/PVP  basically all other instances where it might be used, is 'greed'

if you dont agree with that long held basic principle, thats your right as we all have the right to act however we want, even if thats being a selfish greedy little bitch ... but your attempt to use a completely out of context argument where u say u need its value because that value is a need based on your selfish personal subjective principles.. when the standard held by the vast majority is to the contrary .. its not an argument, its just you trying to defend your selfishness with semantics.

 

now, if you want to state a basic rule at the start of your pug run that all BOE's of high value will be needed by all.. then thats fair enough,  ppl can choose to agree or not, but to just expect everyone to be ok with your selfishness is just .. well.. ignorant.

if all ppl need an item.. and 1 person wins, thats fine..just as in the OP of this thread, they all need.. 1 person wins.. 1 guy is upset he didnt win.. tough luck.

 

but when you say gold is a need equal to other ppl's upgrades, in this context, you are just taking the need for gold in a general sense (i need gold to buy noggenfrogger pots to cloud surf) and then applying it to a long held standard within group/raid environment and saying that because you 'need' cosmetic items for RP then thats an equal need to someone PVE gear upgrade.... that... is not only a semantic bulshit argument taken completely out of context.. it also shows a level of selfishness thats hard to understand. 

 

i feel there is a subjective opinion about the value of gold in this game.. for some ppl.. its not worth being a complete cunt for it.. and for others.. well.. they would take BiS gear from ppl just to sell it for fishing supplies.

Edited March 19, 2017 by Nosleep

[Oakenlix 79]

@Nosleep, well, at this point I'm actually convinced you're a braindead schizo.

[Nosleep 4]

4 hours ago, Oakenlix said:

@Nosleep, well, at this point I'm actually convinced you're a braindead schizo.

you being convinced of something doesnt make it true.. its just your subjective opinion.. but then your childishly insulting and subjective opinion is all you ever talk about.

i could say that i am convinced youre both a troll and a 12 year old.. but that doesnt make it true.

Edited March 20, 2017 by Nosleep

[Nosleep 4]

On 17/03/2017 at 3:07 PM, Oakenlix said:

You didn't raise any valid points, as I said, you literally just wrote a pile of crap, and now you want me to argue with that?

Alright, for the sake of entertainment, I'll do it, so listen up, you fuck.

You should be ashamed of your stupidity, dumbfuck.

Subjective reasoning being used to defend your constant childish name calling attitude. gg

And, i never said i 'wanted' you to argue with my point of view.. i said that if you did in a normal manner, that would be ok, where 'ok' is being used in the context of me saying that rational mature debate is fine and childish insults are not.

On 17/03/2017 at 3:07 PM, Oakenlix said:

And nobody ever claimed you do. What we are saying is that you have the same right to roll on a BoE as anyone else, no matter if it's a gear upgrade for you or not.

Thats you replying to the part of my post where i say ''just because an item has a high gold value when sold, doesnt mean you need it over someone for whom its an upgrade.'' ... but youre wrong, other people in this thread have said exactly that, i made counter arguments against that idea.  Your ''what we are saying'' is a very arrogant statement when 'we' as you put it, is only the people who made the same statements as you and not the 'other' people who said exactly what i attempted to counter.

On 17/03/2017 at 3:07 PM, Oakenlix said:

No, you couldn't. Learn something about logic before claiming to be able to follow it.

Nobody is taking anything from anyone, it's a roll: you win or you lose.

Again, you miss/ignore the context of my statements that were towards someone who said that they need the BOE so they can sell it then go and buy a BOE from AH. I was arguing against a very specific situation made by someone (not your general 'value concept'). But as you have already shown ''we'' from your PoV is the whole thread, more arrogance, but then your constant childish name calling shows that, so im not surprised.

On 17/03/2017 at 3:07 PM, Oakenlix said:

Yes, gold is a need.

Yeah? Prove it. Try to prove that the need for a gear upgrade has any priority over the need for equivalent amount of gold. You'll fail.

Bullshit. Prove it. If gold isn't a need in this game, then nothing is.

I just did try and show that in my last post, I made arguments about a general principle standard (principles of the issue, are something you have previously stated in this thread are whats important) of greed/need for PVE gear in a group/raid envirement ... your response to my attempts to show that gold is not a need when being spoken about in the context of greed/need for gear was?? ...

...you claim how sure you are about me being a ''braindead schizo.'' and avoid the entire post lol.

So after many many demands/requests by you, in multiple posts in this thread, for people to give an argument for why gold is not a need... when you finally get an attempt.. instead of giving a counter argument, you name call.. standard lol.

On 17/03/2017 at 3:07 PM, Oakenlix said:

I find it very, very, very unlikely that on a realm like Elysium there are any BoEs that aren't availiable on AH for longer than a day, if at all.

Subjective opinion, and while it may well be true in most cases, it is again an example of where you take my argument against someone else who made a very specific situational argument, to which i made attempts to counter, and you twist/blindly take it to be something else that you then strawman argue against. I argued the principle of the concept, because someone made a specific argument that its OK to need gear thats an upgrade for someone 'IF' they can with that gold once its sold, go buy the BOE they need from AH.

I actually made a few arguments/examples, (like the guy in ful BiS gear who doesnt need an upgrade from AH) where i attempt to show why that very specific argument is 1: not valid and 2: leads to very silly consequences, but you either missed them, or ignored them, took me out of context and assumed i was arguing against something you had said, i guess.

On 17/03/2017 at 3:07 PM, Oakenlix said:

Once again, I present to you this idea: it doesn't matter what happens after the roll. It doesn't matter how you spend the gold you get from selling a BoE. It doesn't affect your right to roll for it, not by one bit. Why even would it? You may spend all of this to buy aquadynamic fish attractors, same as the guy who wins a gear upgrade might never even use it because he respecced/stopped playing/Disenchanted it by accident/etc. It doesn't matter.

What matters is the value you get from the drop. For BoEs it's equal for everyone, for BoPs it's not, how hard is this concept for you to grasp? You don't roll Need on BoP because whoever needs it for gear upgrade needs it more. You roll Need on BoE because everyone needs it equally.

Once again? maybe you have said this to others, or in general, before, but not to me.. but whatever.

This is the part i attempt to show is you taking a general principle of ''need = your need for the PVE usage of the item in question'' and ''greed = any and all other potential uses for that item'' and attempting to side step that long held principle of group need/greed by applying a general idea that we all need gold for random things in game. and I say its a semantic argument taken out of context.. your reply was to ignore that point and call me names.

You may need ''aquadynamic fish attractors'' and you may need RP gear for fun... but in this very specific context of group/raid loot that i was presenting and had a very well known principle standard.. saying you need fishing lures just as much as someone needs a PVE item upgrade is the most pathetic attempt to twist an argument out of context using semantics and selfishness i think i have ever seen.

On 17/03/2017 at 3:07 PM, Oakenlix said:

No, you couldn't. Learn something about logic before claiming to be able to follow it.

You should be ashamed of your stupidity, dumbfuck.

Indeed, logic dictates that you 1: pay attention to the context someone is talking about before you start with a flurry of childish insults and strawman/semantics arguments.. and 2: Pay attention to 'who' they are talking to.

I followed the logic layed down by both the points i raised and the very specific points someone else raised that i attempted to counter/debunk.

 

you? well you just insulted like a child... again. ...but at least youre consistent lol  

Edited March 20, 2017 by Nosleep

[Nosleep 4]

There is also the argument that in wow...

gold = time

time = gold

they are both true... but both are valuable to different people in different amounts.. there is no standard value associated to either of them for all people.

so when you say that a BOE item has exactly the same 'value' to all group members, not only are you taking a general concept of value and applying it to the specific situation of greed/need for PVE gear in groups ......

(And i do understand the concept of ''defence against the ninja so all need to be safe'' but thats a specific worry not related to the concept of an items value in this context atm.)

........but you are really saying that its gold value is equal to all.. if that is true.. then its not an equal 'value' to all..

its gold value is equal to all but for the person who can equip it, it has an extra value of being an 'imediately' usable PVE upgrade ... so you could argue that they have more than just a gold value for it.. making it have more value to them than to others?

gold value + equipable PVE upgrade > just gold value? i think there is an argument there. it is deffo not a 100% open shut case just cos ppl say its gold value is equal for all...

i think you could also argue that it shares a principle with the reason we all agree its NOT ok to need BOP items that are MS upgrades just to sell / DE them or for off spec, because the gold / none MS upgrade value of an item is not the only thing that denotes an items value so its not right to take it from someone just cos u value/want its convertable worth?

(direct upgrade = the item its self is the upgrade and indirect upgrade = it can be converted at a later date into an upgrade. Does that difference matter? prob very subjective .. but i hold that if u say there is no difference... then any item becomes an indirect upgrade or part of 1 because it can be sold to eventually become an upgrade later, even if its value is less than the cost of the upgrade you eventually get. Which is the same as needing BOP's to eventually buy an upgrade if there is no difference between direct and indirect upgrade.. and all items are indirect upgrades.. so then all items are needed equally. So the most logical conclusion is that there is a very big difference between direct and indirect upgrade, because the consequences of them being equal opens the floor to needing anything to sell (even MS BOP) to add to your pile of gold for eventual *indirect* upgrades)

 

... and thats my point here....

because value is a very subjective term.. when you try to apply it to the basic need/greed for items in a PVE setting, its far too open to subjective perception, and so its very easy to show how its 'value' may not be equal at all ...which could obviously lead to never ending subjective arguments about its value to each person.

 

that is why since the dawn of wow... need has been for anyone who can use and equip the item when its also an upgrade for PVE specifically... and greed is for all other potential uses.

 

Otherwise there would only be need and pass.... because every single item in the game.. no matter how hard it is to get and no matter what its gold value may or may not be.. every single item in the game could be argued to be needed for some random silly/fun/serious reason or another, and without separation between perceived value and specific value for PVE, it would be totally unnecessary to have need/greed/pass at all.

''i need end game bops to DE because i value lvl'ing my enchanting more or equal to how much you value getting full PVE BIS and moving on to the next tier when it comes out'' ... .. 'IF' general value is whats important.. then that example would be a fair argument.. dont you see how silly it is?

'value' is not what is meant in the greed/need system .. we all need everything for something... its obviously implied and for most has been an obvious standard rule.. that in PVE instances.. need means you need the item to equip as a PVE upgrade.. and everything else is greed.

because it avoids the subjective concept of 'general value' which is obviously flawed as I might value RP more than you value server 1st boss kills.

 

TLDR: ''general value''  is far too subjective a term to be used as a definition for need/greed when the item is an upgrade for MS PVE....And ''direct upgrade is equal to indirect upgrade'' means everything in the whole game is needed equally by all.

... both are very flawed idea's / concepts with dire consequences.

Edited March 20, 2017 by Nosleep

[Parla 1]

I would have taken them aswell if it ensured that I would get a 19 page long forum post about me. The fucking salt is real in here.

Edited March 20, 2017 by Parla

[Bruno 0]

Did you fakeroll the shoulders?