Horde Mage Beerwizzard ninjas Stockade Pauldrons

[Nosleep 4]

5 hours ago, nooobieee said:

Nosleep, your argument is flawed. If the item is BoE then the value is pretty much by definition the price of the item on the AH. That means its value is precisely the same for every player in the group. If someone for whom it would be an upgrade loses the roll, she has the immediate opportunity buy it from the winner.

For BoP, the value is the vendor/DE value to most group members, but much higher to those who will use the item and not have to buy an item (which may be inferior) on the AH for much more then the vendor value. Indeed, you could argue the item is priceless if it is BoP and also BiS for someone. But for everyone else, it's the vendor price or the DE value. Regardless, BoP items are regulated through need/greed rolling (if you can't equip it you can't select need in the first place).

so you didnt read the rest of my post where i explain, in detail, and give examples, to show that needing BOE's to sell them and get upgrades from AH is exactly the same as needing BOP's to do the same thing.

i also show that the gold value of an item is not what makes the difference when deciding if ppl need it or not.

because if you had, you would form an argument that is based on things to counter the points i raised, instead, what you did.. was repeat what others have already said before you, and that i made arguments against in my post.

 

you take 1 line from my wall of text, which you prob couldnt be bothered to read, repeat what others have said, which i counter in my post...then tell me im wrong... gg.

Edited March 17, 2017 by Nosleep

[nooobieee 3]

19 minutes ago, Nosleep said:

so you didnt read the rest of my post where i explain, in detail, and give examples, to show that needing BOE's to sell them and get upgrades from AH is exactly the same as needing BOP's to do the same thing.

I exactly countered your argument. I stated the precise value of BoE items to every member of the group irrespective of their class or role in the group. And contrasted that with the differing value of BoP items.

Edited March 17, 2017 by nooobieee

[Nosleep 4]

Just now, nooobieee said:

I exactly countered your argument. I stated the precise value of BoE items to every member of the group. And contrasted that with the differing value of BoP items.

something which i show to be of no consequence as the value of the item is not what makes the difference, i give a few examples of why that is. 

[nooobieee 3]

2 minutes ago, Nosleep said:

something which i show to be of no consequence as the value of the item is not what makes the difference, i give a few examples of why that is. 

The value of the item is all that matters. Your examples don't apply to BoE items as the gold value is equally sufficient to fill any need for the item.

[Nosleep 4]

Just now, nooobieee said:

The value of the item is all that matters. Your examples don't apply to BoE items as the gold value is equally sufficient to fill any need for the item.

nope, i debunk that idea in my post.

[nooobieee 3]

1 minute ago, Nosleep said:

nope, i debunk that idea in my post.

You do no such thing. I read your entire "wall of text" as you put it. There is no valid argument there to counter the stated precise equal value of a BoE item to every member of the group. There has been no stated reason to favor anyone in the group over another regardless of class or role.

[Nosleep 4]

11 hours ago, Nosleep said:

- explained below is the BS direct upgrade Vs indirect upgrade argument... and a counter to anyone who claims that needing BOE's for gold is different to needing BOP's for gold.

- example: if the item you want from AH cost 200g .. and a BOE drops worth 120g .. if you need it.. you still cant buy the item.. you need 80 more gold..... but you would still need it because it can be converted into gold. .. add it to your pile of gold.. .. then need the next BOE that drops even if its an upgrade for someone, might only be worth 50g .. so u need 1 more BOE and then eventually buy an item... that is needing for gold. 

and that example of needing 3x BOE items to get enough gold for the BOE u say u need from AH is exactly the same as needing 15 BOP items to get the item u need from AH.

 

that is the main one showing that needing BOE and needing BOP is the same thing when its an upgrade for someone in the group.

 

11 hours ago, Nosleep said:

 

and another point that spawn from this stupid logic... what if the BOE item that drops is NOT on AH atm?  is it still ok to take it from them just because you say they can buy it from AH? what if they cant afford to buy it? what if its not there? did u check AH b4 needing it? would that even matter to your flawed logic?

also, by that logic, it wouldnt be ok for someone to need the BOE unless they could deffo get a BOE upgrade from AH after selling it?  if some player in full BiS is there.. they are not allowed to need the BOE because they cant buy an item from AH??  crazy stupid logic guys.

 

and these are a few showing other consequences/questions of using that flawed logic.

[nooobieee 3]

9 minutes ago, Nosleep said:

that is the main one showing that needing BOE and needing BOP is the same thing when its an upgrade for someone in the group.

Your premise is flawed. Nothing that follows that premise matters, as it is also thus fatally flawed. It is true that needing a BoE and needing a BoP is precisely the same thing in the case of an upgrade (and no one argues one should not roll need in both cases). However, to the other members of the group, needing on the BoE also has the same precise value as for the person who would receive an upgrade. Needing on the BoP has a much lower value, and that is why the Need before Greed system exists. A good enhancement to the system would simply be to remove the "Need" button for BoE items allowing people to "Roll" or "Pass" depending on their personal choice to roll on the item or not.

[Nosleep 4]

11 minutes ago, nooobieee said:

Your premise is flawed. Nothing that follows that premise matters, as it is also thus fatally flawed. It is true that needing a BoE and needing a BoP is precisely the same thing in the case of an upgrade (and no one argues one should not roll need in both cases). However, to the other members of the group, needing on the BoE also has the same precise value as for the person who would receive an upgrade. Needing on the BoP has a much lower value, and that is why the Need before Greed system exists. A good enhancement to the system would simply be to remove the "Need" button for BoE items allowing people to "Roll" or "Pass" depending on their personal choice to roll on the item or not.

thats a very strange post, you claim my logic is flawed but you give no reason why.

you say that needing BOP and needing BOE is precisely the same thing, which is my point.

and your statement about it being a case of it having the same gold value to all, is exactly what my post, and the bit you just quoted, is referring to... i even give examples of how that premise of ''its worth a lot of gold, thats why i need it'' is ridiculous.

 

as for you saying that anything that follows from my flawed logic, (which you do not even attempt to explain why its flawed), must also be fatally flawed, the post you are quoting is actually giving examples of the consequences of your point... and showing that your flawed logic leads to ridiculous consequences and situations, like the guy in ful BiS who 'must' not be allowed to roll of the BOE cos he cant get an upgrade form AH, hes in full BiS.

 

you dont bother to answer anything i say, you just tell me im wrong, then repeat yourself.

Edited March 17, 2017 by Nosleep

[nooobieee 3]

1 minute ago, Nosleep said:

thats a very strange post, you claim my logic is flawed but you give no reason why.

If you have to change my words to give a meaning that suits you, then you're simply wrong. I did not say "gold value", I said "value". I told you exactly what is flawed about your logic, which is to claim the person who would receive an upgrade gains more value from a BoE item then a group member who does not gain an upgrade from that item. That premise is flawed.

[Nosleep 4]

11 minutes ago, nooobieee said:

If you have to change my words to give a meaning that suits you, then you're simply wrong. I did not say "gold value", I said "value". I told you exactly what is flawed about your logic, which is to claim the person who would receive an upgrade gains more value from a BoE item then a group member who does not gain an upgrade from that item. That premise is flawed.

needing a BOE to sell it on AH so that you can eventually buy an upgrade yourself from AH, is needing for gold.. it is taking the items gold value and converting it, eventually, into an item. so if i said ''gold value'' when i paraphrased what youre saying it wasnt to twist what youre saying to help my PoV, it was because when youre going to sell the item.. it is the gold value of the item youre needing (so i could argue that when you say 'value' instead of 'gold value' you are purposefully trying to use semantics to prop up your point)... also the item may not be on AH so the guy who needs it cant just go buy it..

if the gold value of the BOE that you take from someone for whom its an upgrade, is less than the cost of the item you say you need from AH.....

(if you need something from AH.. why havnt you bought it yet? because you dont have enough gold? well nore does the person who's item just dropped.. but that gets replied to with ''if he hasnt got the gold thats his prob'' but not theirs when asked the same question in reverse? hmmmm)

.... so if its less than the value of the item you will eventually buy from AH... how many BOE's wil you take from ppl before you have enough gold to buy the item you need??  how is that any different than taking someone BOP upgrade many times so as to eventually have enough gold to buy from AH??  oh cos the BOP isnt on AH? well what if the BOE isnt there at present?  the whole idea is just silly.

 

and what about the buy in ful BiS gear?? no answer to that?

Edited March 17, 2017 by Nosleep

[nooobieee 3]

1 minute ago, Nosleep said:

needing a BOE to sell it on AH so that you can eventually buy an upgrade yourself from AH, is needing for gold

Restating your flawed premise does not make it less flawed. I did not state any reason for needing on the BOE, I simply stated that the value of the item is the same for every member of the group. You have not demonstrated any argument that negates that assertion.

[Nosleep 4]

6 minutes ago, nooobieee said:

Restating your flawed premise does not make it less flawed. I did not state any reason for needing on the BOE, I simply stated that the value of the item is the same for every member of the group. You have not demonstrated any argument that negates that assertion.

no, and that 1 statement wasnt trying to do that either.. but.. the entire rest of my post was.. you know, the bit you chose to delete when you quoted me?

now pretend i said more than the 1st line of my post, and answer again.

Edited March 17, 2017 by Nosleep

[nooobieee 3]

6 minutes ago, Nosleep said:

now pretend i said more than the 1st line of my post, and answer again.

Fix your flawed premise and it would be worth reading...

[Nosleep 4]

Just now, nooobieee said:

Fix your flawed premise and it would be worth reading...

so you admit you dont bother to read the points i use to show my premise and just declare its flawed. nice.

 

youre either a troll.. or .. well i cant see much else, cos telling ppl they are wrong without reading what they say, and cherry picking 1 liners, is the act of the troll.

[nooobieee 3]

1 minute ago, Nosleep said:

so you admit you dont bother to read the points i use to show my premise and just declare its flawed. nice.

 

youre either a troll.. or .. well i cant see much else, cos telling ppl they are wrong without reading what they say, and cherry picking 1 liners, is the act of the troll.

I've agreed with you on other posts, since I don't on this one suddenly I'm a troll? That's not a very consistent or helpful philosophy.

[Nosleep 4]

2 minutes ago, nooobieee said:

I've agreed with you on other posts, since I don't on this one suddenly I'm a troll? That's not a very consistent or helpful philosophy.

not because you dont agree.. but because you state that my points are not worth reading.. even though its my points that show my premise.. hmmmm  now you claim im calling you a troll for reasons you fabricate.. thats strawman isnt it?

 

i even explain why i suggest youre a troll. and you still claim its for this bogus reason.

Edited March 17, 2017 by Nosleep

[nooobieee 3]

2 minutes ago, Nosleep said:

not because you dont agree.. but because you state that my points are not worth reading.. even though its my points that show my premise.. hmmmm  now you claim im calling you a troll for reasons you fabricate.. thats strawman isnt it?

Well, good luck with that. I don't expect folks to engage with you productively if you insist they accept some flawed premise from the get go and call them a troll when they don't. Have fun arguing with yourself then.

Edited March 17, 2017 by nooobieee

[Nosleep 4]

1 minute ago, nooobieee said:

Well, good luck with that. I don't expect folks to engage with you productively if you insist they accept some flawed premise from the get go and call them a troll when they don't. Have fun arguing with yourself then.

i dont and never insisted you accept it from the get go, i have repeatedly asked that you read the points as they back up my premise.

 

i state my premise at the start and then go on to explain it.

when you refuse to read why i think what i think and just claim my point is flawed becasue you disagree with the premise, that shows an unwillingness to engage in the topic and you just cover your ears and eyes shouting ''but yore wrong, i dont need to hear or read anything you say cos youre just wrong''

 

kinda like a religious fundamentalist? screaming that evolution is wrong so when you start with the premise that its true then i dont need to read why you think its true.. cos i dont think evolution is real so why bother.

[Oakenlix 79]

13 hours ago, Nosleep said:

if you dont agree with the points i have raised, thats fine.. if you want to make counter arguments to any of the points i have raised, thats fine... but you mate.. just spew insults like a 12 year old... thats not fine.. you should be ashamed.

You didn't raise any valid points, as I said, you literally just wrote a pile of crap, and now you want me to argue with that?

Alright, for the sake of entertainment, I'll do it, so listen up, you fuck.

On 16.03.2017 at 4:54 PM, Nosleep said:

just because an item has a high gold value when sold, doesnt mean you need it over someone for whom its an upgrade.

And nobody ever claimed you do. What we are saying is that you have the same right to roll on a BoE as anyone else, no matter if it's a gear upgrade for you or not.

On 16.03.2017 at 4:54 PM, Nosleep said:

By that logic.. you could also need BOP gear with high vendor price because it will add to your pile of gold to eventually buy an item from AH.

No, you couldn't. Learn something about logic before claiming to be able to follow it.

On 16.03.2017 at 4:54 PM, Nosleep said:

if you think that because the item is BOE then all deserve its value equally then you are saying gold is a need.

Yes, gold is a need.

On 16.03.2017 at 4:54 PM, Nosleep said:

But you take it from them and claim you have the right just because you can sell it.. weather or not it will sell for enough gold to buy the item you need from AH... you just see gold and think you need that gold.

Nobody is taking anything from anyone, it's a roll: you win or you lose.

On 16.03.2017 at 4:54 PM, Nosleep said:

also, there are many ways to farm gold, you dont have to take items ppl need...

Ways to farm gold are availiable to everyone. You can farm gold to buy your item upgrade same as I can.

On 16.03.2017 at 4:54 PM, Nosleep said:

greed is gold and need is upgrade. its that simple. potential value is not relevant.

Yeah? Prove it. Try to prove that the need for a gear upgrade has any priority over the need for equivalent amount of gold. You'll fail.

On 16.03.2017 at 4:54 PM, Nosleep said:

and another point that spawn from this stupid logic... what if the BOE item that drops is NOT on AH atm?  is it still ok to take it from them just because you say they can buy it from AH? what if they cant afford to buy it? what if its not there? did u check AH b4 needing it? would that even matter to your flawed logic?

I find it very, very, very unlikely that on a realm like Elysium there are any BoEs that aren't availiable on AH for longer than a day, if at all.

On 16.03.2017 at 4:54 PM, Nosleep said:

also, by that logic, it wouldnt be ok for someone to need the BOE unless they could deffo get a BOE upgrade from AH after selling it?  if some player in full BiS is there.. they are not allowed to need the BOE because they cant buy an item from AH??  crazy stupid logic guys.

Yeah, your logic is indeed crazy and stupid. It doesn't matter what you do after you win a BoE. Makes no difference whatsoever.

On 16.03.2017 at 4:54 PM, Nosleep said:

- explained below is the BS direct upgrade Vs indirect upgrade argument... and a counter to anyone who claims that needing BOE's for gold is different to needing BOP's for gold.

- example: if the item you want from AH cost 200g .. and a BOE drops worth 120g .. if you need it.. you still cant buy the item.. you need 80 more gold..... but you would still need it because it can be converted into gold. .. add it to your pile of gold.. .. then need the next BOE that drops even if its an upgrade for someone, might only be worth 50g .. so u need 1 more BOE and then eventually buy an item... that is needing for gold. 

and that example of needing 3x BOE items to get enough gold for the BOE u say u need from AH is exactly the same as needing 15 BOP items to get the item u need from AH.

needing BOE for gold is the same as needing BOP's for gold .. there is nothing wrong with it at all.. UNLESS its an upgrade for someone.

Once again, I present to you this idea: it doesn't matter what happens after the roll. It doesn't matter how you spend the gold you get from selling a BoE. It doesn't affect your right to roll for it, not by one bit. Why even would it? You may spend all of this to buy aquadynamic fish attractors, same as the guy who wins a gear upgrade might never even use it because he respecced/stopped playing/Disenchanted it by accident/etc. It doesn't matter.

What matters is the value you get from the drop. For BoEs it's equal for everyone, for BoPs it's not, how hard is this concept for you to grasp? You don't roll Need on BoP because whoever needs it for gear upgrade needs it more. You roll Need on BoE because everyone needs it equally.

On 16.03.2017 at 4:54 PM, Nosleep said:

if you need an item just because of its gold value.. you are needing for gold.. thats not need..

Bullshit. Prove it. If gold isn't a need in this game, then nothing is.

On 16.03.2017 at 4:54 PM, Nosleep said:

you guys should be ashamed.

You should be ashamed of your stupidity, dumbfuck.

 

 

Edited March 17, 2017 by Oakenlix

[Justme 9]

Would you need on T1 BOE?

[Oakenlix 79]

1 hour ago, Justme said:

Would you need on T1 BOE?

If you're asking me - it depends on whether or not loot rules have been stated and what those rules are, and also if it's a guild raid or a pug. But by default - yes, I would. 

 

[Cephei 8]

Btw, I'm glad we had the poll on the other thread where the majority of people agree to leave Need rolls to upgrades, so this debate is done and done. As per the poll results, the default loot rules are need for usage > need/greed for selling.

If you run loot rules different than those, you need to explicibly state those, as requested multiple times in this thread.

Glad we could clear that up.

[Oakenlix 79]

19 minutes ago, Cephei said:

Btw, I'm glad we had the poll on the other thread where the majority of people agree to leave Need rolls to upgrades, so this debate is done and done. As per the poll results, the default loot rules are need for usage > need/greed for selling.

If you run loot rules different than those, you need to explicibly state those, as requested multiple times in this thread.

Glad we could clear that up.

How is this debate done because of the poll? You still haven't learned logic I see.

And yeah, even if our debate somehow depended on that poll... 40% to 60% is not a very dominant ratio of opinions, lol.

 

Edited March 17, 2017 by Oakenlix

[Cephei 8]

It's enough to matter, that's a bigger ratio than most presidental elections and a lot more hinges on those.

It's enough to validate everyone who always knew that needing for selling wasn't the default or even a particularily popular stance to be on. It's nice to have some data confirming this. So yes, I know you reply to every single one of those threads like your life depended on it, but you got conclusively proven wrong here.

You even quoted me in the other thread on it because you thought the poll would go your way. So next time I say "the majority", please know that I speak the truth. And I want to put this here again for all to see: The majority of us considers needing for selling de facto the same as ninja looting and we will undertake actions if you violate this social contract. The default loot option is to pass for upgrades, but if you abuse the system and then sell the item anyways, that's also ninjalooting.