Stealth Rank 1

[Weazool 1]

Hi there.

I don't know about ofther ranks of stealth. But at rank1 with MoD 5/5 and the Nelf racial, seems to me I get detected by mobs a *bit* too soon, maybe.
(Can *barely* sneak though some corners in Wailing Caverns, while I kind of remember It should have been a breeze with said talents)
Of course I can't remember *exactly* the distance I got detected at while sneaking around in dungeons at level 19, back in Vanilla.

Opinions please?

[athero 0]

Shouldnt stealth level be he same regardless of rank ? And only move speed change ?

If so you should be detected the same r1 stealth and 20lvl vs 20lvl mob as r4 stealth 60lvl vs 60lvl mob, i think.

 

 

[Irisai 8]

9 hours ago, athero said:

Shouldnt stealth level be he same regardless of rank ? And only move speed change ?

If so you should be detected the same r1 stealth and 20lvl vs 20lvl mob as r4 stealth 60lvl vs 60lvl mob, i think.

 

 

No, theres stealth levels in Vanilla. Master of Deception is a subtlety talent that gives you ranks of effective stealth. Also some items give added stealth ranks as well. 

[Weazool 1]

Yeah it says that's it's more "effective" than the previous rank, or somesuch, (in addition to the speed increase) but the question here is, how effective do you all remember rank 1 to be?

[Gizmore 0]

For me it seems more or less blizzlike, using distraction helps alot

Edited February 10, 2017 by Gizmore

[athero 0]

20 hours ago, Ariatris said:

No, theres stealth levels in Vanilla. Master of Deception is a subtlety talent that gives you ranks of effective stealth. Also some items give added stealth ranks as well. 

Yes but thats irrelevant. Im talking about Stealth ranks 1 vs 4. Afaik its: Base stealth points + Level + Talents and items and such = Your effective stealth level. Are you sure Base stealth point change depending on rank ? That would mean once you learn Stealth, vs SAME level mob youd be detected at X distance, and then you gain fev character levels but dont upgrade stealth and again vs SAME level mob, youd be detected at different distance.

Edited February 10, 2017 by athero

[Irisai 8]

I guess I'm stupid. I read your post a few times and I still don't really understand what you're asking. 

[Roxanne Flowers 15]

Think of it this way.  It's like the aggro radius of mobs.  The higher your level relative to them, the smaller the aggro radius for the mobs to come and attack you.  The lower your level relative to them, the wider the aggro radius for the mobs to come attack (and 1 shot) you.

THAT.

If none of that notion makes sense to you, you need more help than anyone on this forum can provide you.

Stealth works "kinda like that" in that it modifies the aggro radius (in effect) of mobs.  It also does so slightly selectively, with there being a different modification of aggro radius in the front arc of the mobs from the back arc.  This is why it is "easier" to stay in Stealth (and not be detected) while remaining behind hostile mobs.  The principle is the same, since it's all working off the same math that governs the aggro radius for mobs.  What Stealth does is let you get "closer" to hostile mobs by (in effect) "adding extra Levels" to your actual Character Level.  This can be further enhanced by the Night Elf racial, which effectively adds +1 Character Level to how "close" you can get to hostiles before they can detect you (whether PC or NPC) and each talent point spent in Master of Deception (in effect) "counts" as if it were an extra +1 Character Level for the purposes of this detection formula.  There is also gear that you can equip which will add extra +Stealth by (in effect) adding +1 Character Level to your ability to remain hidden.

A Level 14 Human Rogue with 0/5/0 talents spent in Combat will have a Stealth effect of Character Level 14.

A level 14 Night Elf Rogue with 0/0/5 talents spent in Subtlety (Master of Deception, specifically) will have a Stealth effect of Character Level 20 (14+5+1=20).

This is, broadly speaking, the same as any other talent that adds "skill levels" to a particular Skill ... such as +Defense talents.  The difference here is that the skill is being used to prevent detection (and thus, aggro) and the talents (in effect) make your character play as if they were a "much higher Level Rogue" than you actually are.

The RANKS of the Stealth skill (1, 2, 3) have absolutely no bearing on how CLOSE you can get to a hostile PC or NPC before they can detect you.  The RANKS of the Stealth skill purely determine how FAST you can move while under Stealth.  Detection RANGE for Stealth is purely a function of +/- Character Levels, and Master of Deception gives you "extra Levels" for that particular detection range formula (and if hostile NPCs detect you, they will automatically aggro onto you if they were idle).

Makee sensee yetee?

[Weazool 1]

Since we're done explaining how stealth works, may we return to my original question wich is regarding the detection range - too large? thoughts?

Edited February 22, 2017 by Weazool

[vicatin 0]

Made a post on this a few days ago. Stealth detection distance is way too high. It's obviously broken currently.

[Weazool 1]

19 hours ago, vicatin said:

Made a post on this a few days ago. Stealth detection distance is way too high. It's obviously broken currently.

Okay, same opinion here, anybody else?

Edited February 23, 2017 by Weazool

[vicatin 0]

Its not just stealth rank 1 either btw.

[Irisai 8]

I think a lot of you just don't remember how stealth worked in Vanilla. Unless you are specced into master of deception, you're going to be seen a lot more than on retail. 

[Weazool 1]

1 hour ago, Ariatris said:

I think a lot of you just don't remember how stealth worked in Vanilla. Unless you are specced into master of deception, you're going to be seen a lot more than on retail. 

Beg you pardon. In vanilla, at lvl19, mod5/5 i sneaked hundreds of times inside wailing caverns, to fish at the dreamer's rock. I didnt get spotted as easily WITHOUT the nelf racial. 

But don't take my word for it there's bound to be others that remeber these things.

Also please stop posting the "without mod its useless" argument, it's MOOT. I asked for opinions about stealth WITH mod5/5, not WITHOUT

[Pottu 290]

Compare stealth performance to this test:

http://www.worldofwarcraft-alliance.com/apprentissage/voleur-le-talent-maitre-des-illusions/

If it differs, please report it in our Bug Tracker.

[Irisai 8]

I dunno what to tell you Weazool. I thought something was wrong with stealth too, but at lvl 60 with max rank stealth and 5/5 MoD its just fine. I can almost right up to a mob's face to sap. You NEED max rank stealth and imo Master of Deception to have the stealth you're used to on retail. 

Edited February 25, 2017 by Ariatris

[Weazool 1]

once again, i'm not comparing it to retail stealth, i'm comparing it to my own memories running mod in VANILLA times. while i didn't notice anything wrong in PVP. with mod 5/5, nelf racial and stealth rank1 i get detected by mobs lower than me (i'm lvl 19, mobs lvl 17-18) quite a few yards away.

Anyone bump into anything similar?

[roarr 0]

i agree, stealth is not working properly. yesterday lvl 11 mob found from like 10 yards. (and i was lvl16)

Edited March 1, 2017 by roarr

[egorlike 0]

Quote

The RANKS of the Stealth skill (1, 2, 3) have absolutely no bearing on how CLOSE you can get to a hostile PC or NPC before they can detect you.  The RANKS of the Stealth skill purely determine how FAST you can move while under Stealth.  Detection RANGE for Stealth is purely a function of +/- Character Levels, and Master of Deception gives you "extra Levels" for that particular detection range formula (and if hostile NPCs detect you, they will automatically aggro onto you if they were idle).

I don't agree to this, I noticed improvement in stealth detection once I got the second rank of stealth. All other factors stayed the same. So I do think stealth ranks improve your stealth.

[Roxanne Flowers 15]

5 hours ago, egorlike said:

I don't agree to this, I noticed improvement in stealth detection once I got the second rank of stealth. All other factors stayed the same. So I do think stealth ranks improve your stealth.

If that's true, then Stealth (overall) may be mis-tuned here on these servers.  By that I mean that the numbers "add up" correctly for Stealth rank 4, but then don't "add up" right for ranks 1-3, causing lower ranks to be "weaker" than expected/anticipated rendering them substantially worthless.  Needless to say, this would require comparative testing to prove using a specific references that can function as +0 Level benchmarks for each Stealth rank.

[Khayos 1]

On ‎2‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 3:50 PM, Pottu said:

Compare stealth performance to this test:

http://www.worldofwarcraft-alliance.com/apprentissage/voleur-le-talent-maitre-des-illusions/

If it differs, please report it in our Bug Tracker.

It most definitely differs. I can still be seen at 0/5 MoD Distance, while having a full 5/5 MoD by lower and equal level mobs.

[Khayos 1]

On ‎3‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 0:48 AM, roarr said:

i agree, stealth is not working properly. yesterday lvl 11 mob found from like 10 yards. (and i was lvl16)

I posted this in the bug tracker and was told I need to provide sourcing. Pottu told us to test it, and it not have them fix it. I posted it. Search Stealth Master of Deception and upvote. https://elysium-project.org/bugtracker/issue/3596

Edited March 13, 2017 by Khayos

[Khayos 1]

MoD 5/5 level 14. mob level 11. screenshot shows range that it noticed me, another inch towards it and it attacked. 3 levels under me. 7 effective stealth levels below me. 3 effective stealth levels from MoD max, 3 levels from being 3 levels higher than the mob, and 1 level from Nightelf Shadowmeld Passive. This clearly fails the test pottu posted.

Edited March 12, 2017 by Khayos

[Weazool 1]

excellent work, khayos

[Khayos 1]

Thanks Weazool, now lets see if they fix it. if they fix stealth and MoD/Shadowmeld, I will be happier than a pig in mud.

Edited March 13, 2017 by Khayos