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Nevarion

Best PvP-melee class right now

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1 hour ago, Zak Preston said:

I have r13 feral druid and a semi-decent  geared rogue. Rogue is way better in everything but carrying flags.

Your zealousness precedes you. I'm sure your rogue is way better at healing, curing and abolishing curses, and blah blah blah. Yes, the Rogue has a better rogue toolkit, but the druid has a better group toolkit and is equally capable of applying pressure and although not as adept at locking down a target, can easily peel for a target to get away.

And congrats on the rank 13 druid, you must have been a real help to your group if all you did better than your rogue is carrying a flag.

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@Zak Preston is right, in pvp, rogue is far from feral. As heal, i see a huge difference between a rogue and a feral when he is on me. Feral has NO burst and NOT ENOUGH control and pvp is about burst & control.

But, Feral is very good at 1v1 cause he can carry flag but also use all his toolkit to help his group.

Feral isn't just a melee class. Its a tank, a medium-level melee, a bad dps at distance, and a bad healer, but HE CAN DO THAT even if its bad.

Rogues can just control, and kill fast.

But as melee class, rogue is better, and its fair.

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2 hours ago, Rafale said:

@Zak Preston is right, in pvp, rogue is far from feral. As heal, i see a huge difference between a rogue and a feral when he is on me. Feral has NO burst and NOT ENOUGH control and pvp is about burst & control.

But, Feral is very good at 1v1 cause he can carry flag but also use all his toolkit to help his group.

Feral isn't just a melee class. Its a tank, a medium-level melee, a bad dps at distance, and a bad healer, but HE CAN DO THAT even if its bad.

Rogues can just control, and kill fast.

But as melee class, rogue is better, and its fair.

You are right of course. Rogue is better at doing the one thing it does. But this is the basis for the argument:

On 9/22/2017 at 6:03 PM, Zak Preston said:

Complete and utter trash for PvP:

Obviously he is mistaken. Druid damage can be very similar in burst potential. Tiger's Fury to ravage, powershifting to a shred shred, and powershifting to a ferocious bite. Done right, you can get the ravages and shreds within the tiger's fury. Or if you want control instead of just damage you have pounce, rake, rip shift to bear for stun or charge or both.

Rogues get ambush > eviscerate then wait 6 seconds for a backstab. I guess you can down a thistle tea at this point if you want. But that would be a ton of thistle teas every hour.

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Thistle Tea is rather powerful and typically a Rogue staple for PvPing. Aside from that Renataki's Charm of Trickery (ZG set trinket for rogues) gives you an instant 60 energy on a 3 minute cooldown.

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1 hour ago, Whitewolf said:

You are right of course. Rogue is better at doing the one thing it does. But this is the basis for the argument:

Obviously he is mistaken. Druid damage can be very similar in burst potential. Tiger's Fury to ravage, powershifting to a shred shred, and powershifting to a ferocious bite. Done right, you can get the ravages and shreds within the tiger's fury. Or if you want control instead of just damage you have pounce, rake, rip shift to bear for stun or charge or both.

Rogues get ambush > eviscerate then wait 6 seconds for a backstab. I guess you can down a thistle tea at this point if you want. But that would be a ton of thistle teas every hour.

open raid stats and check top rogues' and druids' rankings in MC and BWL: the average performance of top-50 rogue is 2.5x better than the top-50 druid. Of course you can't compare PvP and PvE, but I'd say that in PvP the gap is even wirse. Problem is that ferals use powershifting mechanics with wolfhide helm (I hope there is no need to expalain what it is) and all the top-ferals DPS are on alliance side. Have you wondered why? -- Because with full raid buff (and Blessing of Wisdom) your mana regen is quite decent and even with 3.5k mana pool you can reshift at least 15 times. But in PvP environment you don't have wolfhide helm and full raidbuff, and you need mana for constant reshifts to kite enemy (break roots\slows). So no powershifting or you are very much oom and dead. But another problem is not only low damage, but lack of CC: you don't have a reliable on-demand interrupt, you don't have gouge, sap, combat reset (vanish), which means your only viable tactics is hit-n-run, and even in hitting ferals are bad. 

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22 minutes ago, Zak Preston said:

open raid stats and check top rogues' and druids' rankings in MC and BWL: the average performance of top-50 rogue is 2.5x better than the top-50 druid. Of course you can't compare PvP and PvE, but I'd say that in PvP the gap is even wirse. Problem is that ferals use powershifting mechanics with wolfhide helm (I hope there is no need to expalain what it is) and all the top-ferals DPS are on alliance side. Have you wondered why? -- Because with full raid buff (and Blessing of Wisdom) your mana regen is quite decent and even with 3.5k mana pool you can reshift at least 15 times. But in PvP environment you don't have wolfhide helm and full raidbuff, and you need mana for constant reshifts to kite enemy (break roots\slows). So no powershifting or you are very much oom and dead. But another problem is not only low damage, but lack of CC: you don't have a reliable on-demand interrupt, you don't have gouge, sap, combat reset (vanish), which means your only viable tactics is hit-n-run, and even in hitting ferals are bad. 

Dude, it's comparing rogues to healers..... on the rogues column it says DPS, but on the druid side it says HPS.

Of course you don't have to explain what Wolfshead helm is. I've been mentioning powershifting in the post you quoted.

You should know that mana spring totem is a thing horde side. The real winner for powershifting is Judgement of wisdom when it is allowed to be used.

If you want to burn you burn. Why can't Wolfshead helm be used in pvp? I don't get this CC problem you are referring to. Roots are cc and druids can do it on demand unlike a rogue's kidney shot and cheap shot. To interrupt you have feral charge, it's not a kick but it serves purposes in triplet.

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9 hours ago, Whitewolf said:

Dude, it's comparing rogues to healers..... on the rogues column it says DPS, but on the druid side it says HPS.

Of course you don't have to explain what Wolfshead helm is. I've been mentioning powershifting in the post you quoted.

You should know that mana spring totem is a thing horde side. The real winner for powershifting is Judgement of wisdom when it is allowed to be used.

If you want to burn you burn. Why can't Wolfshead helm be used in pvp? I don't get this CC problem you are referring to. Roots are cc and druids can do it on demand unlike a rogue's kidney shot and cheap shot. To interrupt you have feral charge, it's not a kick but it serves purposes in triplet.

No, it's not: the left chart is for DPS. №1 DPS druid is lower than №100 rogue on Elysium.

Wolfshead helm is terrible for PvP: you lose stats or you lose a precious slot for Goblin Rocket Helm\Gnomish MC cap. But the worst part is that unlike PvE, you can't afford yourself powershifting like you would for PvE rotation just because you lose too much mana you could use for heals, roots and reshifts. There is nothing more pathetic and helpless than an oom feral.

Once again, root is not a disable (like stun, sap, sleep, fear), it's a snare, and snared players can use engineering, projectiles, racials and so on. To interrupt with feral charge you need to shift into bear form and be on a certain distance, so it's not an on-demand interrupt and you may be not fast enough to jump into bearform  and increase the distance in order to be able to "interrupt".

If you claim to be an experienced feral PvP-er, then it's weird that you are asking these questions. You seem to be asking the same questions over an over again, so I won't be surprised your druid is not pre-bis or even 60.

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Can't afford to powershift? Can a rogue afford to use vanish/blind/preperation to kill or control instead of for survival? It's the same concept, using resources to achieve a goal. Those items that use the helm slot are on extremely long cooldowns so you aren't going to be using them all the time so there is plenty of time where having them equipped is a liability. Not using binds to switch outfits and items when you can use them is on you not the class. Roots don't have to be disablers. Blind has a long cooldown, gouge has positioning requirement, and kick requires timing, kidney shot is easily trinketed, and crippling poison is easily abolished with a nearby druid or shaman. The strongest ability a rogue can possess is Preperation because it is the one thing that can't be countered.

The link clearly shows me dps for rogues and hps for druids. I even provided an attachment photo.

I already said feral charge is 3 abilities in one. It would be broken If you could use it on demand.

Seeing how you think a feral druid is worthless, you probably never ranked your druid as feral because druids can only heal and carry flags.

Screenshot_2017-10-16-12-12-52.png

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Thing in pvp/duels/1 vs 1 wpvp for rogue is that everything can be removed.As a druid u can remove blind with abolish poison , u can remove stuns which is the bane of rogues by fap/lap/trinket , u can just put faire on them so they cant restealth getting of multiple ambushes or try to sap u.Where as a druid what things can easily be removed?U have 2 stuns u can work around , entangle roots permanant , bear form cap 75% melee dmg mitigation , Highest hp in bear form close to 3x compared with mage.Only class to remove all CC with just trinket(Poly , fears , slows , stuns etc.. and if u need more removal u have lap/bs fear trinket / reflectors etc..) , highest crit in game in a pvp environment up their with warr/ele sham.Provided u do things properly in pvp its not bad.Non healer classes u go full on rake/pounce/moonfire/rip and that takes half their hp away.With healer classes u dont have heal reduction debuff and no real burst so it is tough and just who has the longest mana wins.U should still win due to innervate and no other class can regen mana as fast as u incombat.

For pve it is a totally different situation which i dont care anyways.Ofc dudu will be at the bottom because it is a hybrid class so if u are a hardcore raider u shouldnt role druid cuz feral isnt that good until AQ and mostly u are resto.

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