Update the pvp gear on Zeth/Ely with BWL patch

[TTL 6]

26 minutes ago, Caber said:

No, it doesn't take months to clear AND get the gear. You get gear the first time you clear it. Guaranteed to.

Damn, you must be jesus getting every piece of gear you need on your first clear. Reminds me of our tank not getting two of his pieces after 3 months of clears. #wisepeoplelikeCaber=Win

#RecruitingCabers 1+2= over 9000

[Caber 4]

1 hour ago, TTL said:

Damn, you must be jesus getting every piece of gear you need on your first clear. Reminds me of our tank not getting two of his pieces after 3 months of clears. #wisepeoplelikeCaber=Win

#RecruitingCabers 1+2= over 9000

How are you a real person, you clown.

The bosses always drop items. There's always someone in raid who gets them.

[QQsya 4]

We're veering off topic. 

 

Why is it so unacceptable that a few BiS PVE items come from PVP?  There are many more BiS PVP items that come from PVE, that's how the game works in vanilla.  We're not yet at the point where they built a big wall between PVE and PVP and made them fast and separate. If it weren't for edgemaster's and the hit on the r12 pants , dps warriors would be wearing the devilsaur set far, far into BWL.  Is that better, they should wear level 55 BoE blues instead?

Again I want to direct people here, a detailed mathematical breakdown of stat totals on the updated r10, updated r13, and 1.6 BiS gear for every class.  You'll find that they are highly comparable.  The biggest difference is in the hunter gear, where the r13 set has a whopping 38 attack power and ~1.4% crit advantage over the PVE BiS gear.  Very OP, wow.  I'm so sure hunters doing 15 more dps is gonna absolutely break every encounter and make PvE even more trivial than it already is. :rolleyes:

 

[flowqz 34]

1 hour ago, Caber said:

How are you a real person, you clown.

The bosses always drop items. There's always someone in raid who gets them.

he is talking about getting the full gearset, at least he implied it in a pretty obvious manner.

[flowqz 34]

36 minutes ago, QQsya said:

We're veering off topic. 

 

Why is it so unacceptable that a few BiS PVE items come from PVP?  There are many more BiS PVP items that come from PVE, that's how the game works in vanilla.  We're not yet at the point where they built a big wall between PVE and PVP and made them fast and separate. If it weren't for edgemaster's and the hit on the r12 pants , dps warriors would be wearing the devilsaur set far, far into BWL.  Is that better, they should wear level 55 BoE blues instead?

Again I want to direct people here, a detailed mathematical breakdown of stat totals on the updated r10, updated r13, and 1.6 BiS gear for every class.  You'll find that they are highly comparable.  The biggest difference is in the hunter gear, where the r13 set has a whopping 38 attack power and ~1.4% crit advantage over the PVE BiS gear.  Very OP, wow.  I'm so sure hunters doing 15 more dps is gonna absolutely break every encounter and make PvE even more trivial than it already is. :rolleyes:

 

and you are comparing t2 with the updated pvp items. noone will have full t2 when bwl hits, but some ppl will have those pvp pieces, which would mean a huge difference for a couple of weeks/months.

 

personally i think you can have your pvp item upgrade, a few months after bwl hits, but not directly at the start.

[doodoobrown 1]

On 6/13/2017 at 4:32 AM, TTL said:

My arguments why I could care less.

-Rank 14 is earned by a minority as limited to a couple a week
-Most Rank 14 players just mindlessly run 2 min games without any amazing competition making their PvP contribution minimal.
-Lol @ instantly upgrading items into the next tier
 

1. This thread isn't about r14 gear, that's being updated in 1.6 regardless of this thread.

2. If you suck premades will queue into you and then your premade will make less honor than pugs.

3. You don't read. We've said multiple times that waiting for BWL progression to finish is a reasonable request.

This is the first time you've actually tried to make an argument btw. If you read back your posts all you were doing was 'lol mom's basement' memes 50% of the time.

[TTL 6]

4 hours ago, flowqz said:

he is talking about getting the full gearset, at least he implied it in a pretty obvious manner.

Indeed, considering when you get rank 14 you unlock the full set of gear. Of course libtards need everything explained in great detail because they lack common sense.

[TTL 6]

2 minutes ago, doodoobrown said:

1. This thread isn't about r14 gear, that's being updated in 1.6 regardless of this thread.

2. If you suck premades will queue into you and then your premade will make less honor than pugs.

3. You don't read. We've said multiple times that waiting for BWL progression to finish is a reasonable request.

This is the first time you've actually tried to make an argument btw. If you read back your posts all you were doing was 'lol mom's basement' memes 50% of the time.

1. Disagreeing with the thread since the start
2. Better english please or at least a better point because it's irrelivant.
3. I've read it, I would agree it's reasonable but doesn't mean I agree with it so.

Learn what a meme is.

[Forest_ 40]

On 5/22/2017 at 11:26 PM, QQsya said:

In actual retail they weren't updated until Naxx.  But they kind of suck, most of them are barely on par with MC gear and will only get worse as time goes on until there's no point in ranking anymore unless you push all the way to the top.  On old Nost,  many "non-rankers" would queue just for a few weeks just to get 2 or 4 pieces of the set for the set bonuses and because of that Nost always had a very active PVP community. 

The updated blues also already exist on Anathema.

This is probably the one non-blizzlike change that Nost made to pvp that actually worked out for the better.

It sounds like you understand how vanilla patch itemization was supposed to work, and you don't like it.

I'll be quite pleased to see the best geared people on the server being the players with the most boss kills. Vanilla was a game designed around PVE and acquiring gear almost exclusively from raids, now on Elysium it will be that way.

Here is the design of item progression in vanilla. As you will see all gear is supposed to remain equal from PvP and the highest tier raid available on the current patch. There is a reason R14 swords and the upgraded R13 set is the same item level as Naxx:

Shitty MC T1 = Shitty blue 58 set

Better BWL T2 = Un-upgraded R13/R14 gear

AQ40 T2.5 = PvP itemized tier tokens from a 40 man

Naxx T3 = Upgraded R13/R14 sets and weapons

If you want to gear out through BGs you have to grind the honor during the Naxx patch. If you do this you will have Naxx quality weapons at the same time people raiding Naxx can acquire them. This is all very logical in the order that blizzard designed iLevel and patches. You're just not used to (or like) a private server implementing gear this way. In the past people could get Naxx gear from R14 in MC. That's just not correct.

Gear in vanilla was supposed to directly scale based off how many people it took to complete that content.

WSG/AB = 10/15 man

MC/BWL/AQ40/Naxx = 40 man

Just because you jumped around WSG/AB for 20 hours a day for 2 months doesn't mean that in 2 years you should be given weapons that are better than AQ40/Naxx content for free. People on private servers don't understand that 1.12 items being available in MC breaks the entire game. There weren't even ranks for half of the lifetime of MC, and there were maybe 1 or 2 people that had R14 by the time BWL released.

 

TLDR - This is Blizzlike for a very very good reason, tough if you don't like it.

[doodoobrown 1]

11 minutes ago, Forest_ said:

IBetter BWL T2 = Un-upgraded R13/R14 gear

The r13+r14 gear is already in the game and the weapons are getting updated during 1.6 regardless of this thread.

 

14 minutes ago, Forest_ said:

AQ40 T2.5 = PvP itemized tier tokens from a 40 man

I made a list comparing the stats of updated r13 gear with updated t2 (which you're getting on BWL release, that's not blizzlike btw). In PvE the upgraded PvP gear either is even with BWL BiS or is a slight downgrade. The exception is the hunter pvp gear which has 38 more AP and 1.4% more crit. AQ40 gear out-performs updated r13 substantially in every single category.

Here's the link: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1s9CLO31HDTjs2qPAn2FILB1dulLm1kup3G5Ih-Wrorg/edit

20 minutes ago, Forest_ said:

If you want to gear out through BGs you have to grind the honor during the Naxx patch. If you do this you will have Naxx quality weapons at the same time people raiding Naxx can acquire them. This is all very logical in the order that blizzard designed iLevel and patches. You're just not used to (or like) a private server implementing gear this way. In the past people could get Naxx gear from R14 in MC. That's just not correct.

Those "Naxx quality weapons" are happening regardless of this thread, check the timeline. Also they're closer to AQ40 quality or drops from Chromaggus/Nefarian. Point is: you'll still use Crul, Maladeth, and Chromatic Sword in PvE and do about as much damage as people using r14 weapons, which less than 1% of the population will have anyway. Also, this only applies to rogues/warriors right now, casters have next to no reason to go for r14.

25 minutes ago, Forest_ said:

WSG/AB = 10/15 man

 

MC/BWL/AQ40/Naxx = 40 man

Just because you jumped around WSG/AB for 20 hours a day for 2 months doesn't mean that in 2 years you should be given weapons that are better than AQ40/Naxx content for free. People on private servers don't understand that 1.12 items being available in MC breaks the entire game. There weren't even ranks for half of the lifetime of MC, and there were maybe 1 or 2 people that had R14 by the time BWL released.

Competing with players is more challenging than beating a boss that's been out for over 12 years, and not only that it's far more time consuming. Getting rewarded for r12+ is  certainly not getting free gear and this affects so few people I can't possibly see why you would be against giving these few dedicated people their due. Also, why cite the amount of people in WSG/AB versus MC/BWL, what does it prove?

I can just as easily say:

AV = 40 man

MC/BWL/AQ40/Naxx = 40 man

Oh I see, I guess we should get Naxx quality loot now.

[Haestingas 30]

You realize a couple AV items are actually insanely strong and only upgraded from Nef or later? Dun Julio is very strong and upgraded at Nef, Healing offhand is VERY STRONG with a SIDEGRADE from AQ40, fire/frost offhand upgraded from twin emps. So YES av already follows that logic you idiot.

These guys will just cherry pick every post you guys make, and make idiotic posts the entire time. For gods sakes these complete idiots thought rag hammer is bis for pve. Don't argue with them, they have no clue about how this game works besides BGs and they don't care to learn.

[doodoobrown 1]

Haestingas, what is your point? This thread isn't about AV loot and if you want to talk about the updated PvP gear then check my comparison on google docs. Also, AV does not = Naxx because two pieces of gear are itemized well. TUF+Lobotomizer are worse than the rag weapons and the exalted faction items from WSG and AB are the same level as the AV exalted gear, so we're getting the same quality for 10-15 man.

Why is every single one of your arguments just senseless raging, insults, and picking out some specific pieces of pvp gear that work well in pve and acting like it's a huge issue? The items don't make a significant difference and we're not asking for the update immediately on BWL release. Do you just want to argue for fun? Like we can make up shit to banter about in another thread.

If you're going to accuse us of cherrypicking, please give examples. The last post I went through the guy's entire argument rather than captioning a single paragraph and framing it out of context. I have examples of you cherrypicking, however, like how you said the updated r8 legs+chest are BiS for fury warriors and that's why you thought the entire pvp update is wrong because of two pieces for one poorly itemized class being slightly better than muh BWL gear.

[Haestingas 30]

You are a lost cause, not as bad as QQ and Caber but come the hell on. You literally just said that AV = 40man so the gear should be comparable to 40man pve loot, and I just gave 4 examples of how that logic is actually true. Also the quiver is very strong for pve. Go back to doing what you do best, dunking on ungeared pugs and dodging premades. The Elysium itemization was made crystal clear from day 1 with the timeline, tough luck kiddies.

 

[Forest_ 40]

Regardless of the battle ground heroes attempting to make counter points to mine or Haestingas' arguments this suggestion is doomed to fail.

The itemization that is being pushed through is Blizzlike and already announced. I don't see a reason that this thread is still open.

The answer to this suggestion will be 'NO' going forward.

[doodoobrown 1]

2 minutes ago, Haestingas said:

You are a lost cause, not as bad as QQ and Caber but come the hell on. You literally just said that AV = 40man so the gear should be comparable to 40man pve loot, and I just gave 4 examples of how that logic is actually true. Also the quiver is very strong for pve. Go back to doing what you do best, dunking on ungeared pugs and dodging premades. The Elysium itemization was made crystal clear from day 1 with the timeline, tough luck kiddies.

 

It was ironic, I was commenting on how the number of people in group doesn't affect item quality in PvP, all the exalted PvP reputation gear is level 65 regardless of the number of people involved in the BG.

And this is not about reputation vendors, this is about faction gear as it always has been from the start. AV is getting released before BWL, if you have a problem with that open up a separate thread. Also, Nost's itemization was made clear until people spoke up about how there's no point in PvPing. What don't you understand? If the gear doesn't get updated in 1.6 or 1.7 then all you will get is premades because only dedicated pvpers would be willing to invest the time for gear that is complete trash, if it is then you will see MANY more pugs because people will actually care about their rank since the gear is worth their time.

Look at the gear comparison, please, so we stop getting off-topic.

[QQsya 4]

6 hours ago, Forest_ said:

Here is the design of item progression in vanilla. As you will see all gear is supposed to remain equal from PvP and the highest tier raid available on the current patch. There is a reason R14 swords and the upgraded R13 set is the same item level as Naxx:

Shitty MC T1 = Shitty blue 58 set

Better BWL T2 = Un-upgraded R13/R14 gear

AQ40 T2.5 = PvP itemized tier tokens from a 40 man

Naxx T3 = Upgraded R13/R14 sets and weapons

 

This is blatantly wrong, please review the evidence to the contrary that has been posted multiple times already.  T3 is most certainly better than even the updated R13 set and the updated R13 is on par with T2, as has already been proven. 

>I'll be quite pleased to see the best geared people on the server being the players with the most boss kills

That's how it was even on Nost with the early PvP update.  Outside of their ranker setpieces and/or rep gear, PvP-only guys were still running around in like, sublime bracers and green ZG necklaces, lol. The absolute highest tier of highly geared players will be the ones who have both the high iLvL PvE and ranker PvP items and can mix and match them at will, though.  Again, same as Nost and retail. 

>Vanilla was a game designed around PVE and acquiring gear almost exclusively from raids

Vanilla was a game designed around social interaction and cooperating with a group in order to achieve a goal.

>If you do this you will have Naxx quality weapons at the same time people raiding Naxx can acquire them.

You mean like the way people killing Ragnaros can get Naxx quality weapons right now in 1.3? Having 1.10 BRE is an insane advantage when most of your opponents are running around with 2.8k HP and 40 spellpower wearing the equivalent of pre-buff T1 or dungeon blues.

>Just because you jumped around WSG/AB for 20 hours a day for 2 months doesn't mean that in 2 years you should be given weapons that are better than AQ40/Naxx content for free

I'd hardly call 1,240 man-hours "for free".  For example, if you spent that amount of time working at McDonalds and making the US federal minimum wage, you'd have made about $9,300 before taxes.

>and there were maybe 1 or 2 people that had R14 by the time BWL released.

On Zeth there are 4 people with R14 weapons, which is actually far fewer than the amount of people with BRE/spinal reaper, and I imagine the ratios are similar on Elysium as well. However, this is an irrelevant argument anyway because the weapons get updated in 1.6, as is blizzlike. The focus of this thread is only the armor pieces and not the weapons.

 

Sorry for the arrow quotes but it's much easier than typing [.quote][/quote] every time when I want to go through a post line-by-line.

[Forest_ 40]

You're really starting to warp your arguments for PvP gear to be better than it was at certain patches in vanilla. I understand that you REALLLLLLY don't like the Blizzlike itemization and patching for these items versus PvE but this suggestion isn't happening.

In case you don't understand how this is going for work I'll make it very clear for you:

99% of gear worth acquiring in vanilla will come from PvE

Your most recent posts can be summed up as follows:

[doodoobrown 1]

41 minutes ago, Forest_ said:

Blizzlike itemization

You have 1.12.1 talents in 1.3, updated t1 in 1.4, you get updated t2 on BWL release, AV in 1.5, and WSG reputation vendor in 1.6. Can we stop assuming blizzlike is in any way this server's primary intention? Then again this argument will keep cropping up regardless of what anyone says, like it has for the past 5 pages.

 

[QQsya 4]

Nice meme, but you can't just act like le cool dismissive edgy man(haha deal with it kiddo im much older and cooler than u :^^^^) also ur opinion is dumb*blows smoke in ur face*) while being completely wrong and addressing zero of anyone's points. 

I'm not warping my argument at all, my argument remains the same as it was in the OP. Literally just look at the google doc that's been linked about 8 times now.  Here, I'll link it a 9th time: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1s9CLO31HDTjs2qPAn2FILB1dulLm1kup3G5Ih-Wrorg/

Several PvE items are also "better than [they] were at certain patches in Vanilla."  We have 1.10 BRE in 1.3.  If your argument is "it's not blizzlike" then neither is having 1.12 talents and 1.10 Rag weapons in 1.3, or having nerfed gray drops from DME lashers, or having AB out before AV.  The timeline is already not Blizzlike.  If your argument is "it will make PvE too easy" then :

1. PvE is already trivially easy except for a few select encounters;

2. The armor is on par with the BiS armor available in 1.6.

And finally, if your argument is "WoW is PvE game, deal with it" then go play on Darrowshire and let PvPers discuss PvP.  You'll still be able to raid log MC and BWL once a week and get gear that's around 95% to 105% (depends on your class/spec) as good as the PvP pieces. No one is going to take away your safe space, so relax.

[QQsya 4]

12 hours ago, flowqz said:

and you are comparing t2 with the updated pvp items. noone will have full t2 when bwl hits, but some ppl will have those pvp pieces, which would mean a huge difference for a couple of weeks/months.

 

personally i think you can have your pvp item upgrade, a few months after bwl hits, but not directly at the start.

That is exactly what we are arguing for.  Maybe I should edit the thread title to reflect that?   It didn't occur to me at first, but earlier in the thread I was made to realize that having BWL equivalent gear on BWL launch would indeed be a bit of an unfair advantage, so we should allow a few weeks or even a month or two for BWL progression before rolling out the update. Possibly even update it in 1.7, the ZG patch. 

Edit: Edited, please see the new OP.

Edited June 14, 2017 by QQsya

[TTL 6]

3 hours ago, Forest_ said:

You're really starting to warp your arguments for PvP gear to be better than it was at certain patches in vanilla. I understand that you REALLLLLLY don't like the Blizzlike itemization and patching for these items versus PvE but this suggestion isn't happening.

In case you don't understand how this is going for work I'll make it very clear for you:

99% of gear worth acquiring in vanilla will come from PvE

Your most recent posts can be summed up as follows:

+1

[quasexort 4]

3 hours ago, doodoobrown said:

You have 1.12.1 talents in 1.3, updated t1 in 1.4, you get updated t2 on BWL release, AV in 1.5, and WSG reputation vendor in 1.6. Can we stop assuming blizzlike is in any way this server's primary intention? Then again this argument will keep cropping up regardless of what anyone says, like it has for the past 5 pages.

 

Caster t2 is going to be updated with BWL release?

[doodoobrown 1]

@quasexort They're updating t1 in 1.4, so it stands to follow that t2 will be updated on release, otherwise no one would use it.

[quasexort 4]

Did they say they were updating t2 upon release?  It wasn't updated on Anathema until the war effort.  Unless they've announced something I feel like it's safer to assume they won't update it until the war effort since that's what they did in the past and that's what's blizzlike and there's really no reason to update it.

[QQsya 4]

If they update T1 in 1.4/1.5 and don't update T2 in 1.6 then there won't even be a point in doing BWL because updated T1 is better in most cases than pre-update T2.  So if that's the plan then the whole timeline is even more nonsensical than I originally thought.