Video Evidence of Multiple Judgements ranks Stacking

[killerduki 54]

 

/Kind regards Killerduki

 

[Nelythia 44]

How often does someone need to tell you that they did actually stack pre 1.8?

[killerduki 54]

2 minutes ago, Nelythia said:

How often does someone need to tell you that they did actually stack pre 1.8?

Video is from 2.0

Enjoy

Stacking removed 2.4

/Kind regards Killerduki

[Nelythia 44]

Wrong.

 

Stacking got removed with or after 1.8 and only the buffs were visually "stacking", while they were actually NOT stacking.

[Theloras 108]

9 minutes ago, Nelythia said:

Wrong.

 

Stacking got removed with or after 1.8 and only the buffs were visually "stacking", while they were actually NOT stacking.

WRONG - try actually watching the video this time and note how his Consecration damage increases from 71 dmg with 1 JotC to 105 with 2 JotC debuffs up

[killerduki 54]

10 minutes ago, Nelythia said:

Wrong.

 

Stacking got removed with or after 1.8 and only the buffs were visually "stacking", while they were actually NOT stacking.

Avenger Shield was given during TBC 2.0 Patch , this you can see in the Video as Evidence.

There is no Visual Bug, you can see Consecration with 1 Judgement did 75 damage, with 2 Judgements did 105 Damage.

Working as Intended with unavoidable Evidence.

/Kind regards Killerduki

[Nelythia 44]

Video Intro "PTR 2.0"

 

Stacking was brought back unintentionally on the PTR, didn't you have that discussion on Github already

 

[Theloras 108]

1 minute ago, killerduki said:

Avenger Shield was given during TBC 2.0 Patch , this you can see in the Video as Evidence.

There is no Visual Bug, you can see Consecration with 1 Judgement did 75 damage, with 2 Judgements did 105 Damage.

Working as Intended with unavoidable Evidence.

/Kind regards Killerduki

Also the falling hammers from each judgement = TBC

Vanilla didn't have that animation

[Theloras 108]

Just now, Nelythia said:

Video Intro "PTR 2.0"

 

Stacking was brought back unintentionally on the PTR, didn't you have that discussion on Github already

 

they talked about 1.9 ptr

not 2.0

[killerduki 54]

1 minute ago, Nelythia said:

Video Intro "PTR 2.0"

 

Stacking was brought back unintentionally on the PTR, didn't you have that discussion on Github already

 

Patch note = Removed during 2.4.

Try harder to deny next time.

/Kind regards Killerduki

[Theloras 108]

TLDR - stacking was removed in patch 2.4 as was provided by patch evidence already

[Nelythia 44]

Just now, killerduki said:

Patch note = Removed during 2.4.

Try harder to deny next time.

/Kind regards Killerduki

The visual effect of them stacking was removed with 2.4, not the actual stacking.

[killerduki 54]

1 minute ago, Nelythia said:

The visual effect of them stacking was removed with 2.4, not the actual stacking.

http://www.dual-boxing.com/threads/19271-Is-the-JoL-debuff-still-stacking

Quote

but right before WOTLK launched while i was just getting into boxing i started with 2 paladins... they were both using judgement of light and the debuff (heal on hit) effect was stacking for both pallies.

Evidence is clear.

/Kind regards Killerduki

[Ram 11]

Well, at least duki brings evidence that it stacked once, while others do NOT bring evidence WHEN it stopped.

 

So instead of hating/flaming/blaming him, focus your energies in finding sources for your claims.

[killerduki 54]

I will leave you with this gem from @taladril - who I think summed things up pretty well before:

"Lol the la la la I don't want to hear it argument. Convincing. You guys show nothing but non professionalism. Proof has been found. Are you gonna fix it or not? If not then don't hide behind the shield of "it's ok guys cause rets aren't viable" cause that's just lame. And I'm not saying it for Theoloras's or Duki's benefit. We're all looking for accuracy here." http://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=43506&hilit=holy+resistance+is&start=380#p317419

 

/Kind regards Killerduki

[killerduki 54]

And again , this time in Live , not PTR

 

/Kind regards Killerduki

[Theloras 108]

Antonidas 10 pally vs kara prt 1
Uploaded on Jan 12, 2008

2 x JotC debuffs

 

[Theloras 108]

AO Paladin Assault on Karazhan: Shade
Uploaded on Oct 6, 2008

2 x JotC debuffs

 

[Theloras 108]

In the meantime, here are more videos:

 

**10 Pally Karazhan - Curator - Shockadin POV**
Uploaded on Nov 10, 2009
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwNV4IlXzmE
2 x JotC debuffs
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/255872470203105280/318254821130108928/10_Pally_Kara.jpg

**AO Paladin Assault on Karazhan: Attuman**
Uploaded on Oct 6, 2008
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2C1ZcGIluJ0
2 x JotC debuffs
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/255872470203105280/318253573009965057/AO_Paladin_Assault_Attuman.jpg

**AO Paladin Assault on Karazhan: Morose**
Uploaded on Oct 6, 2008
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4u_DrCzi3g
2 x JotC debuffs
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/255872470203105280/318257009495506944/AO_Paladin_Assault_Moroes.jpg

**AO Paladin Assault on Karazhan: Curator**
Uploaded on Oct 6, 2008
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-n_EFfL2sbc
2 x JotC debuffs
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/255872470203105280/318251686915211264/AO_Paladin_Assault_Curator.jpg

**AO Paladin Assault on Karazhan: Illhoof**
Uploaded on Oct 6, 2008
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ol-56o2fyQs
2 x JotC debuffs
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/255872470203105280/318252859282030602/AO_Paladin_Assault_Illhoof.jpg

**AO Paladin Assault on Karazhan: Prince**
Uploaded on Oct 6, 2008
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBKM34qnI8o
2 x JotC debuffs
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/255872470203105280/318252368745463808/AO_Paladin_Assault_Prince.jpg

[gamemechanic 0]

I am not affiliated with Elysium, but have been a long discussion on the open dev discord with Killerduki and Theloras.

As you can see here, they present a lot of data from TBC. A PTR video which could show damage increase and some live videos that show multiple debuffs, but not confirmed they are stacking.

I asked both Killerduki and Theloras for evidence that this mechanic existed in Vanilla, and after alot of namecalling (sigh) i was shown these 3 links:

http://wow.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=243&mid=11287757594799940
This one is dated pre patch 1.8 and even speculates in that this mechanic is removed in 1.8

http://paladinsucks.blogspot.dk/2005/08/best-way-to-regain-your-mana.html
This one is also pre patch 1.8.

http://paladinsucks.blogspot.dk/2005/12/super-mana-regen-is-back.html
This one post patch 1.8. But both the post and the 4 comments clearly indicates that this a bug and definitly not a mechanic that is working as intended.

There is knowledge about this mechanic pre 1.8, but being removed with patch 1.8. Maybe appearing on PTR server. And from 2.0 to 2.4 two debuff icons could be shown on a target, but they couldn't stack. Patchnotes in 2.4 says "Judgement of the Crusader: It is no longer possible to have icons for two different ranks of Judgment of the Crusader appear at the same time when judged by multiple Paladins.". It clearly says two icons, not two effects. If debuf stacking could work is was removed before 2.4...

Same patchnotes also contains: "Resistance Auras: It is no longer possible for two Paladins in the same party to make it appear that players have two of the same resistance aura active.". I hope that comparison is quite clear. What the client is showing isnt always a clear indication of what is happening serverside.

I'm still waiting for proof that the mechanic was working and intended in late vanilla. Every claim so far has been easily refutable.

[Thari 15]

As a former paladin from retail vanilla myself, I can confirm this got removed at some point.

While my memory is no proof, obviously, it assists the claims that it got fixed at around 1.8 or 1.9.

 

I actually tried to find screenshots of this in my folder from retail vanilla, but I could not find any screenshot that would show this situation.

Neither pre nor post patch 1.8.

[Whitewolf 1]

32 minutes ago, gamemechanic said:

I am not affiliated with Elysium, but have been a long discussion on the open dev discord with Killerduki and Theloras.

As you can see here, they present a lot of data from TBC. A PTR video which could show damage increase and some live videos that show multiple debuffs, but not confirmed they are stacking.

I asked both Killerduki and Theloras for evidence that this mechanic existed in Vanilla, and after alot of namecalling (sigh) i was shown these 3 links:

http://wow.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=243&mid=11287757594799940
This one is dated pre patch 1.8 and even speculates in that this mechanic is removed in 1.8

http://paladinsucks.blogspot.dk/2005/08/best-way-to-regain-your-mana.html
This one is also pre patch 1.8.

http://paladinsucks.blogspot.dk/2005/12/super-mana-regen-is-back.html
This one post patch 1.8. But both the post and the 4 comments clearly indicates that this a bug and definitly not a mechanic that is working as intended.

There is knowledge about this mechanic pre 1.8, but being removed with patch 1.8. Maybe appearing on PTR server. And from 2.0 to 2.4 two debuff icons could be shown on a target, but they couldn't stack. Patchnotes in 2.4 says "Judgement of the Crusader: It is no longer possible to have icons for two different ranks of Judgment of the Crusader appear at the same time when judged by multiple Paladins.". It clearly says two icons, not two effects. If debuf stacking could work is was removed before 2.4...

Same patchnotes also contains: "Resistance Auras: It is no longer possible for two Paladins in the same party to make it appear that players have two of the same resistance aura active.". I hope that comparison is quite clear. What the client is showing isnt always a clear indication of what is happening serverside.

I'm still waiting for proof that the mechanic was working and intended in late vanilla. Every claim so far has been easily refutable.

They brought evidence and yet no one has brought counter evidence other than a post that speculates on the actual removal of JoL and JoW stacking only. It's easier to refute the counter arguments at this point than the other way around.

Before the BC patch ret paladins were an oddity and people were just beginning to start recording things. The lack of video evidence in vanilla does not prove it never existed. Would crusader stacking really change the way people formed raids much? Not really. With SoC you were looking at a 40-50 dps increase at most and another 120 with consecrate and judgement. At the time paladins were highly frowned upon and bullied if they were ret except in fringe cases for raiding. Not to mention the debuff slot limit.

[gamemechanic 0]

5 minutes ago, Whitewolf said:

They brought evidence and yet no one has brought counter evidence other than a post that speculates on the actual removal of JoL and JoW stacking only. It's easier to refute the counter arguments at this point than the other way around.

Before the BC patch ret paladins were an oddity and people were just beginning to start recording things. The lack of video evidence in vanilla does not prove it never existed. Would crusader stacking really change the way people formed raids much? Not really. With SoC you were looking at a 40-50 dps increase at most and another 120 with consecrate and judgement. At the time paladins were highly frowned upon and bullied if they were ret except in fringe cases for raiding. Not to mention the debuff slot limit.

There is no evidence that this mechanic existed in late vanilla. If i missed it, then please point me to it.

[Whitewolf 1]

34 minutes ago, Thari said:

As a former paladin from retail vanilla myself, I can confirm this got removed at some point.

While my memory is no proof, obviously, it assists the claims that it got fixed at around 1.8 or 1.9.

 

I actually tried to find screenshots of this in my folder from retail vanilla, but I could not find any screenshot that would show this situation.

Neither pre nor post patch 1.8.

My memory and that of my brother and a friend remembers that JoL and JoW were stopped from stacking yet crusader was untouched.

[Whitewolf 1]

6 minutes ago, gamemechanic said:

There is no evidence that this mechanic existed in late vanilla. If i missed it, then please point me to it.

It seems pretty common knowledge based on just this thread alone that the mechanic existed prior to 1.8. It would be foolish to deviate from what is known without proper evidence to back up that all three judgements were changed. Evidence before change right? As was previously mentioned on these forums, the goal is not to be fair but be vanilla like. If blizzard left reckoning stacks the way they were originally, this server would have to honor that decision no matter how OP and broken that would be because it would have been vanilla.

So without proper evidence that they didn't stack is it logical to deviate from a known originality?