Ironfoe Testing

[Omgdontdie 1]

@Undertanker There are two components to rage gain. There is a component based on a hit landing based on weapon speed (different rage values for a hit and crit) and there is a component based on damage done. 

Also, I didn't find the post you made about any math regarding Ironfoe. If you would like to post it here, I'd love to proofread it. Who knows, maybe I missed something.

[Undertanker 88]

Rage gain from damage done is 30:1  and damage received 90:1. @60.  Values differ for lower levels but are linear.

[Omgdontdie 1]

Idk what your sources are, but that is not the rage gain formula. I can pull it up for you when I finish this 5-man

Edit: Ahh, looks like you were right about rage gain on Elysium. The Nostalrius code used different formulas that has a seperate component based on weapon speed. For the record, below is the rage gain formula on Elysium...

Quote

 

void Player::RewardRage(uint32 damage, bool attacker)

{

// Vanilla rage formula source http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/18325-the-new-rage-formula-by-kalgan/

float addRage;

float rageconversion = float((0.0091107836 * getLevel() * getLevel()) + 3.225598133 * getLevel()) + 4.2652911f;

if (attacker)

{

// Nostalrius - fix regen rage.

addRage = (damage / rageconversion) * 7.5f; //TBC formula: ((damage/rageconversion*7.5f + weaponSpeedHitFactor)/2.0f);

}

else

{

addRage = damage / rageconversion * 2.5f;

// Berserker Rage effect

if (HasAura(18499, EFFECT_INDEX_0))

addRage *= 1.3f;

}

addRage *= sWorld.getConfig(CONFIG_FLOAT_RATE_POWER_RAGE_INCOME);

ModifyPower(POWER_RAGE, uint32(addRage * 10));

}

 

 

[Omgdontdie 1]

However, that being said, given that Ironfoe has the highest expected dps under the most conservative raid conditions, it still holds that Ironfoe will outperform any other weapon (beside Thunderfury ofc) in terms of TPS in pre-AQ content. The only exception might be if you are an Orc using Crul.

[Undertanker 88]

From another discussion I just commented on, will copy paste here:

"To take variations of AP out of the equation we can do this by talking in % rather than raw numbers to determine it's value.

@6% proc rate:

3.9 procs per minute assuming 25 autos + 40 globals.

This is 7.8 extra white hits, our Auto Table now has a pool of 32.8 hits each minutes / 31.2% increase of rage gaining / white hit performing abilities.

Take the 43.5 DPS from Ironfoe and add that 31.2% to the weapon and we get 13.5 more raw DPS to the weapon.

Performance of a Stat-less 57 DPS weapon.  My previous calculations used the 5% proc rate which is why I initially stated 56.3 ish on other post.  So on par with Vis'Kag due to that proc also giving rage and slightly slower than deathbringer as the proc of deathbringer sucks, but the 2.9 speed gives a decent amount more average AP with crusaders PPM variations.

Remember that Crul also has AP (though limited use to tanks vs fury) and has Stam to increase your EHP which Ironfoe does not.

The raw AP Crul gives is > than the additional AP average you get from a 0.1 second slower MH for crusader PPM variations. "

[Omgdontdie 1]

There is a huge flaw in your calculation when you try to take out variations of AP. The whole reason that Ironfoe is such a great weapon is that it scales incredibly well with attack power. 

If you look at my simple estimate a few posts earlier, if you take AP into account (even under sub-optimal raid conditions), Ironfoe begins to pull way ahead. Even with the most conservative AP estimates you get a weapon that exceeds Crul.

[Undertanker 88]

"You get the same % adjustments of performance from Ironfoe vs Deathbringer / Crul / random gray weapon in terms of x amount of attack power per swing."

I feel like you only give considerations of AP to Ironfoe and not to the other weapons you are comparing them to as if you'll have your 700ish AP for Ironfoe so you found it's DPS value and didn't do the same for the weapons you are directly comparing them to.

[Omgdontdie 1]

That is not true. If you look at my post on the last page, im only considering attack power when estimating the value of the proc. Attack power affects both weapons in similar ways, however Ironfoe's proc is what makes the weapon scale better than the others. Copy paste from a similar post to clarify...

Quote

 

The proc becomes increasingly powerful as you gain attack power. 

Let me break this down into a hypothetical example...

Situation 1: Ironfoe has 1 base dps, and item X has 100 base dps. You have 0 attack power. Clearly we see that item X is superior to Ironfoe, since the proc can't make up for the loss of base damage.

Situation 2: Ironfoe has 1 base dps, and item X has 100 base dps. This time, you have 100000 attack power. Clearly we see that base weapon damage is barely relevant, and a 5-6% chance to grant two extra swings easily makes up for any loss of base damage.

 

 

[Undertanker 88]

LOL glad that is cleared up........

[Undertanker 88]

Ah k.  Makes more sense be glad to.

So we can take your value of 700 ish AP.

700/14 - 50 DPS.   50 DPS*31.2% 15.6

65.6 DPS from AP. for Ironfoe, 50 DPS from AP for other weapons.

We'll do the math with 1,000 AP as well (you'll see why later), so will give:

93 DPS from AP for Ironfoe, 71 DPS for other weapons.

We can agree the base performance is 57 DPS from my calculations above with 0 AP?

700 AP:

Ironfoe - 109.1 DPS.  Crul (36 AP more) will have - 115.3 DPS

1,000 AP:

Ironfoe - 136.5 DPS.  Crul (36 AP more) will have - 136.4.

Works out well.  Seems that is the magic number.   If you have 1k AP that is the breaking point of when Ironfoe becomes better than Crul prior to any weapon skill considerations (which gives about an 8% benefit to tanks) for threat specific conversations.

[Omgdontdie 1]

You forgot to include Ironfoe's base weapon damage when calculating proc dps. The value from the proc is (50+43.5)*31.2% if we do it your way. Also, your 31.2% number is inflated because Shield Slam doesn't trigger main hand weapons here.

[Undertanker 88]

.... dude.   YOu are now adding the first hit damage twice in regards to AP.

I'm adding the base damage of weapon 57 DPS Ironfoe, and 62.8 for Crul.

I'm given Ironfoe the same % of 31.2% to the value increase of DPS from AP.

700 dps gives 50 AP to other weapons, gives an additional 15.6 DPS to Ironfoe from AP.   65.6.    Then add the value of the weapons to the value that AP contributes..

[Omgdontdie 1]

Since your math seems to be all over the place, I'll try to distill this down to as simple terms as possible. 

 

In 1 minute: 40GCDs = 10 Shield Slams and 30 revenge/sunders, 60/2.4 = 25 autos. (30+25)*0.05 = 2.75 ppm. (Note: The proc rate is likely closer to 6%)

 

Assume: 750AP (minimum, given a buffed BWL tank). All else equal between weapons (no armor, hit capped, no block/dodge/parry/glancing)

Ironfoe's average hit: (750/14+43.5)*2.4=232.97 damage

2.75 procs in a minute implies 2.75*232.97*2/60=21.3 dps just from the proc. [(#procs)*(Damage)*(2 Swings)/(60 seconds)]

Ironfoe's base damage is 43.5 dps. The value of the proc is 21.3 dps. 21.3+43.5=64.8 dps.

 

Keep in mind this is the most CONSERVATIVE estimate for a BWL tank. Let us now assume 1000AP.

Ironfoe's average hit: (1000/14+43.5)*2.4=275.8 damage

2.75 procs in a minute implies 2.75*275.8*2/60=25.3 dps just from the proc. [(#procs)*(Damage)*(2 Swings)/(60 seconds)]

Ironfoe's base damage is 43.5 dps. The value of the proc is 25.3 dps. 25.3+43.5=68.8 dps.

 

Now if we look at Crul, we only really have to consider two things. Base damage and attack power. Let me do that for you too.

Crul's base damage is 62.8. The 36 attack power from Crul is equivalent to 36/14=65.4 dps.

 

Edit: fixed a minor typo

Edited July 6, 2019 by Omgdontdie

[Undertanker 88]

[Omgdontdie 1]

Classic forum reaction for when you run out of rational responses.

On a more related note though, definitely keep the posts coming if you have relevant information that checks out. At the very least, I learned something today from digging up the rage formulas again.

[Undertanker 88]

1 minute ago, Omgdontdie said:

when you run out of rational responses.

I'm honestly just tired to beating a dead horse and having to chase the conversation between 3 threads.

Especially when your math and mine still yield the same results, that 700 / 750 AP Ironfoe < Crul.  1k Ironfoe > Crul in terms of threat.

In short keep both weapons if you got them, use Ironfoe world buffed, use Crul if you die.

 

[Omgdontdie 1]

Now that I'm curious as to what the actual AP break point is to make IF>Crul, for the sake of satisfying my own curiosity, here is how we would break it down using a similar approach to Undertanker:

In one minute, we have 25 autos and 30 spells that can trigger Ironfoe. This gives us 2.75ppm(5.5 extra swings)  and 3.3ppm(6.6 extra swings) at 5% and 6% respectively.

Given that we have 25 autos w/o any procs, 5.5 extra swings from a 5% proc rate is a (25+5.5)/25=1.22=22% increase in damage. Similarly, 6.6 extra swings from a 6% proc rate is a (25+6.6)/25=1.264=26.4% increase in damage.

Applying this to IF's base damage only, we get a base dps of 43.5*1.22=53.07 and 43.5*1.264=54.98 at 5% and 6% respectively, without accounting for AP.

We already know that the value of Crul's dps is 62.8+(36/14)=65.37. [62.8 base damage + (36/14) damage from AP]

This leaves a deficit of 65.37-53.07=12.3dps and 65.37-54.98=10.39dps that needs to be made up by AP at 5% and 6% respectively.

To work this out backwards, we simply use the AP formula and multiply it by IF's damage modifier. We get (AP/14)*0.22=12.3 and (AP/14)*0.264=10.39 at 5% and 6% respectively. Solving with basic algebra, we get the following breakpoints...

At a 5% proc rate, IF>Crul @ 783 AP.

At a 6% proc rate, IF>Crul @ 551 AP.

Note: these break points are BEFORE we account for weapon skill. Given these values though, even orcs might prefer IF>Crul with BWL gear and buffs.

As always, if any of you fellow nerds/warriors find anything wrong, let me know!

 

[Omgdontdie 1]

Tested the new fixes. BT and Execute seem to work, but Sunder still doesnt. Could have to do with the fact that doesnt deal damage, or I might have written the conditional wrong. Ill look into it later.

 

[Storfan 24]

5 hours ago, Omgdontdie said:

Tested the new fixes. BT and Execute seem to work, but Sunder still doesnt. Could have to do with the fact that doesnt deal damage, or I might have written the conditional wrong. Ill look into it later.

 

That would be very much appreciated! I only use Ironfoe for tanking so this fix wont help me at all if Sunder still doesnt work.

[Agrillos 0]

Confirmed. It doesn't proc on Sunder Armor. -.-

Maybe the next dev update in another 2 months will finally fix this.

[Ixl 0]

tested aswell, ironfoe doesn't proc from SA sadly. crul ftw still

[Omgdontdie 1]

A friend of mine said IF is now procing off SA on the PTR, so hopefully that fix goes live next dev update. Fingers crossed?

[Meitner 0]

10 hours ago, Omgdontdie said:

A friend of mine said IF is now procing off SA on the PTR, so hopefully that fix goes live next dev update. Fingers crossed?

Sunder Armor procs main hand chance on hit effects on PTR, yes. It also did for about 2 hours last Wednesday on Darrowshire, before they applied a hotfix and reverted it back. 

 

Hoping for this Wednesday.

[femdead 0]

yep sunder is fixed, tested it out

works with nightfall as well

[Brynja 1]

This makes Ironfoe the best TPS weapon behind TF, I reckon?