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cbarchuk

Leveling dilema

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Hi, I'm new to the Elysium server. Been leveling a rogue with a buddy of mine who is playing a mage. We're currently level 30. The last time I played was WotLK and quit when Cata first came out so this is my first Vanilla experience and it's been a blast so far. Back then I level sub and loved it. So far though I've been leveling the standard combat spec with swords to this point. I really hate it though...lol. I had planned on switching over to a hemo pvp spec at 60. My dilema: Would it be a completely a terrible idea to change over to hemo now and level from this point forward? I'm just not enjoying combat despite it's effectiveness. Part of the fun is the journey for me along with all the world pvp that my friend and I are constantly running into. I just don't feel like a rogue. Feels more like an inferior warrior in leather. My friend is running frost which seems to be the leveling AND pvp spec of choice which he loves. So would a low level hemo spec or some other spec feel so completely inferior to combat that it would honestly be a waste of gold for me to switch? Thanks for any guidance you can give me. 

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Combat is huge mainly for the +5% hit you get very early on in the tree. This, as well as the Dual Wielding Specialization, makes a truly gigantic DPS difference for a Dual Wielding class. Trust me, you don't want to respec at low levels after starting with combat talents. I'm sure you're already frustrated with the high miss chance rogues have without any +hit items available until very high levels. Not having the talent makes it very intolerable.

Also, once you get Blade Flurry and Adrenaline Rush, you'll never feel like "an inferior warrior" again since you can wreck people several times faster and more effectively than they can.

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I definitely understand that and, against mobs, it's been great. I'm mainly talking about the pvp aspect of it and which there's ton on this server. Isn't there more of hybrid spec that could work? I'm mainly leveling with my friend so I wouldn't be solo that often. If hemo would be a bad choice, at least for now, what about if I stayed in combat but used daggers and that way I could at least use backstab and ambush. I know I can do whatever here, I just don't want to regret the spec change since it's kind of expensive. In these world pvp moments the slow stealth is really hurting me here as I'm more of a pvper. Thanks for your thoughts. 

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Pwnana is right that you'll lose out on some extremely helpful talents in combat.

With that said, I felt just as you did and respec'd to hemo at 31. I did just fine all the way to 60 and found prep + hemo allowed for both survivability and fun in wPvP. At the same time, I didn't feel that I struggled at all questing/grinding/doing dungeons and at times thought that my spec was a real asset. Given that you're leveling with a mage, it might actually be a bonus that you can stun lock mobs while your bud dishes out DPS.

I will say, though, that I put a ton of extra effort into getting decent gear (especially weapons with a slow MH speed) which required extra farming beyond what is necessary while leveling. It might've been too gimped of an experience had I not invested in decent gear along the way.

At the end of the day, play the spec that's the most fun, even if you know that combat swords is the easiest way to get to 60.

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Muzzy and Pwana,

Thanks for your thoughts. Alright I decided to give it shot. The first thing I noticed, as Pwana pointed out, was that I was missing a lot more without precision. I also noticed that my poisons weren't proccing as often either. I'm not really sure why that is. So while I appreciated having some utitliy, the damage was less for sure. So I'm not really sure what to do. I definitely did not have this quandary when I have leveled my rogue back in WotLK. I leveled as sub and it was an awesome experience. Vanilla is, of course, a much different experience. I just can't find a leveling spec that is fun to play and efficient in both PvE and PvP. So I'm going to keep at it for a bit longer. I may give some kind of dagger/ambush spec a try to see how that works as well. 

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Try out Combat Daggers, it's a fun spec for duo leveling/pvp and won't gimp you too much. I guess it'd look like something like this at L30: 0/21/0 with the Dagger Specialization up next obviously.

Of course, it'll do nothing to help your slow stealth though.

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re: poisons - that may just be a function of lower hit.

You could go for precision after picking up hemo (something like this), but I don't know how viable that will be.

You mention above that your mage friend seems to have best of both worlds as frost spec. Rogues don't have a similar sweet spot, so it might be helpful to recalibrate your expectations a bit.

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I got around 16k HK with my lvl39 rogue and have experimented with many different builds, so here is my take on it.

The simple answer is this: Just choose prep and you should do well in pvp, no matter if you choose dagger or hemo. Both works! However especially for dagger it's important to have a good, slow main hand.

If you play dagger in pve, you must get the backstabs. To get behind the mob either use gouge, have your mate take aggro or use the trick where you jump through the mob and then in the air quickly turn around and spam backstab. It takes some practice but it's possible to hit mobs this way before they turn around.

 

The more detailed answer is: Many different things can work, just experiment a lot.

Personally I prefer dagger because it's more fun. Here are my personal dagger builds. All of them try to maximize the dmg of ambush and backstab. Your talents will provide the high crit chance, and your gear should provide high dmg when you crit - which means gear with attack power is optimal. Agility + Stamina also works well through.

 

Build 1: Dagger prep

These is my favorite 39 dagger pvp spec. I used it for almost a year now and it really excels in PvP when you have prep ready and know how to use your cds.

It has Imp ambush, imp backstab with opportunity and serrated blades for more dmg. Prep has 10 min cd but helps a lot, especially with imp sap you can cc them very well.

Yes, no hit sucks sometimes. Missing ambush can be annoying. Missing blind can be annoying. I may make you think "daaaamn I should have taken the hit talent!!!" but it's not that bad - you have two blind and two vanish. Just use on of them and it balances out.

Want to take on multiple enemies at the same time? Want to do nice things like vanish sap? Then this is your build.

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#fZhfZqMhscho

 

Build 2: Dagger imp sprint

Imp sprint, endurance and precision means you have low cd and finally a high percentage to hit. This makes you very consistent and strong in non-stop fighting. Do you hate to miss and want to be less dependent on cds? Want to use imp sprint to rape mages? Then this is the build for you.

You still have imp ambush and imp backstab, which means you have similar damage output like the build above.

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#fZhfVbbZVMhc

 

Build 3: Assassination: Backstab cold blood

This build is possibly the weakest for pvp, because it lacks both imp sprint and prep. However it has the highest potential for huge burst damage. That makes it valueable for both pve and pvp. Maybe it's even the best leveling spec of those 3. It has Lethality, which means that once you maxed out opportunity your backstab hits higher than with the other specs. In addition to that, backstab (well, any attack) crits 5% more often. The high backstab dmg really is what makes this build work. Eviscerate crits are also high now with Lethality + imp evsiceration. So cold blood eviscerate is good burst for only 25 energy. Cold blood ambush is also great vs cloths.

Pooling energy and using thistle tea I managed to do around 2k dmg in a kidney at level ~35 like this:

-building combo points and kiting to get energy

-when you are full energy do full kidney. Now he is stunned and you have 100 energy (relentless strikes ftw) + 100 energy if you use thistle tea

-backstab, [wait for energy tick] backstab, tea, backstab. This are 3 backstabs in a row and you still have 40 energy left.

-finish with cold blood eviscerate or wait for the next tick and backstab again.

This build has no imp ambush, but remoresless attacks will be similar.

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#fGeooxzZhfZz

This build is also good at the earlier levels: simply get imp backstab and remoresless attacks, then build up the assassination tree.

After level 39, the next talent points go into opportunity, imp ambush and prep (like build 1) or into precision and imp sprint (like build 2).

 

In the vid below you can see clips where I use all 3 of these specs. You can see in the bottom row 2nd icon which build it is. If it's empty then it is imp sprint, otherwise it's cold blood or prep.

 

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Thanks again guys for the feedback and, you're right Muzzy, I do need to recalibrate my expectations. Gotta another question for ya'll: Hemo swords seems to be one of main pvp specs to use. Can someone explain to me why it's so good? I tried it here at 30 briefly and found the damage extremely lacking compared to the backstab/ambush spec I'm using now. Is this just doe do my level?

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Wow! Frombehindyo, I just read your post. Thank you so much for the detailed information. I thoroughly enjoyed it and the video. Might have some questions for you as well here in bit....

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6 hours ago, cbarchuk said:

Thanks again guys for the feedback and, you're right Muzzy, I do need to recalibrate my expectations. Gotta another question for ya'll: Hemo swords seems to be one of main pvp specs to use. Can someone explain to me why it's so good?

A few reasons:

1) Once you have all your talent points to work with, a typical hemo build allows for an incredible amount of control over in 1v1. Once you pick up a number of key talents (Initiative, Dirty Deeds, Imp Gouge, Relentless Strikes) you can keep an opponent stun locked and have a bunch of tools at your disposal if things go haywire (Ghostly Strike, Prep) or you want to dish out a guaranteed blow (Cold Blood Eviscerate).

2) Due to its control, it's fairly viable with pre-raid BiS gear (e.g. Dal'Rends), especially given that harder to find a decent daggers before raiding than it is to find a good sword/mace before raiding. Once you pick up some harder hitting weapons and increase your attack power, you can really start hitting like a truck. I remember playing vanilla retail and having middle of the road raiding gear and being up to cut through my target's health in my opening sequence (CS>Hemo>Gouge>KS).

I tried it here at 30 briefly and found the damage extremely lacking compared to the backstab/ambush spec I'm using now. Is this just doe do my level?

As I mentioned above, you probably need to be rocking decent gear, especially weapons, in order to not feeling like your throwing around a wet paper bag at your enemies. At 60, you won't out-DPS a combat build in a raid ever as hemo, but you trading the consistent DPS for the survivability of a build that invests in subtlety as well as the occasional burst DPS when Cold Blood is up.

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7 hours ago, muzzy said:

A few reasons:

1) Once you have all your talent points to work with, a typical hemo build allows for an incredible amount of control over in 1v1. Once you pick up a number of key talents (Initiative, Dirty Deeds, Imp Gouge, Relentless Strikes) you can keep an opponent stun locked and have a bunch of tools at your disposal if things go haywire (Ghostly Strike, Prep) or you want to dish out a guaranteed blow (Cold Blood Eviscerate).

2) Due to its control, it's fairly viable with pre-raid BiS gear (e.g. Dal'Rends), especially given that harder to find a decent daggers before raiding than it is to find a good sword/mace before raiding. Once you pick up some harder hitting weapons and increase your attack power, you can really start hitting like a truck. I remember playing vanilla retail and having middle of the road raiding gear and being up to cut through my target's health in my opening sequence (CS>Hemo>Gouge>KS).

As I mentioned above, you probably need to be rocking decent gear, especially weapons, in order to not feeling like your throwing around a wet paper bag at your enemies. At 60, you won't out-DPS a combat build in a raid ever as hemo, but you trading the consistent DPS for the survivability of a build that invests in subtlety as well as the occasional burst DPS when Cold Blood is up.

Thanks again Muzzy for your thoughts, I really appreciate it. When I tried it out before I didn't have dirty deeds so cheapshot was pretty expensive so I felt extremely energy-starved. So it sounds like you're saying I'm going to get more "bang for my buck" with hemo/swords than with daggers due to dagger builds requiring a lot more gear. My buddy and I are currently level 34 and have been primarily wPvPing and it's been great. So another question, PvP-wise, which spec would works the best at my level:

 

Something like:

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#fZZxMe0chRo

or

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#fMZGcZV0xs

 

I'm currently doing the dagger build and it's been working great but I do play a human and feel like I should be using swords since they have sword specialization. The dagger build also been great for leveling especially in a group which is what I'm using playing in. Thanks. 

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Your first build is better in pvp but worse in pve. Because you have stunlocks and prep, which is good especially when you pvp with your mage friend. This is similar to my build number 1, but without dagger. It has the difference that you sacrifice a little bit of damage in favor of getting cheaper attacks (which means more combo points).

Your second build is better in pve but worse in pvp. Because you have neither prep nor imp sprint you can get kited easier and your attacks cost 60 energy so its harder to build up combo points for kidney shot. On the positive side, you now have higher damage. It's like my build number 3.

I noticed you put 5 points in camouflage. Imo 3 points are enough. I'd put the other points in elusiveness or ghostly strike. Ghostly strike is especially great in combination with evasion. Other than that, both of your builds look good :)

 

Quote

I'm currently doing the dagger build and it's been working great but I do play a human and feel like I should be using swords since they have sword specialization. The dagger build also been great for leveling especially in a group which is what I'm using playing in. Thanks. 

It seems like you want both dagger and sword, and well: you can! Luckily imp ambush is in the same tree like hemo, so you can take both. This way you can open with ambush and then switch your weapon to sword and play hemo.

My Build 4: Ambush hemo

It is very similar to my build 1. Your ambush is exactly the same, and instead of backstab you use hemo. The only difference is you switch to a slow weapon after ambush and use hem instead of backstab. 2 hemo will do around the same damage like 1 ambush did in my build 1. So you spend 10 energy more for the same dmg.

Upsides:

-you get 1 combo point more,

-you have 2 talent points more available (the ones from imp backstab)

-you don't need to get behind your target anymore

-you made 2 attacks instead of 1, so a higher chance for poison procs

Downsides:

-Costed 10 more energy

-You need 2 good weapons instead of just one: a dagger and a sword/mace

-You need to switch weapons. It may be annoying and you will notice a small gcd when switching weapons

-No more two-shotting lowies with ambush + backstab    *sad panda ;( *

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#fZhbMZqMhschoo

The points in the combat tree can be put in another tree if you like, but I prefer the gouge and hit.

Here is the build in action. The playstyle is actually very much like my build 1:

 

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On 6/10/2017 at 2:22 PM, Frombehindyo said:

Build 1: Dagger prep

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#fZhfZqMhscho

Build 3: Assassination: Backstab cold blood

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#fGeooxzZhfZz

Frombehindyo - thanks for the detailed info! I'm looking at your Build 1 and 3 (currently only level 12, but trying to figure out what route to take). I know I want to go daggers (I love my sneaking around, and ambush crits on clothies), and I will be stopping for a bit to PvP in each of the brackets as I level.  I have a few questions for you:

  1. Which of your specs would you say does the best with worse gear? I'm playing pretty casually these days, and probably will not dedicate a ton of farming to get the best gear possible while leveling. If one of your specs (or a more stunlock-focused spec, see next question) is substantially better at worse gear levels, I'll definitely be going that way
  2. It seems like your specs are based on big crits and ambush/backstab; what are your thoughts on stunlock builds? Am I correct in thinking that they're more viable at later levels when you can get more talents to complement the playstyle? I dunno if ambush or stunlock builds require better gear to be viable though
  3. What are the order of talents you'd suggest picking? Grab the 8 in combat first, then start building up the primary tree of whichever spec I choose?

Thanks so much for all your input and knowledge!

 

 

 

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It's really hard for me to answer this questions... and I have only levled one rogue so far and then just played a ton of pvp with him. But I will try to answer:

1. gear wise there is no big difference between the specs and you should play what you like more. Dagger is probably a little bit weaker with bad gear (but not much) and that is mainly because at times it is difficult to find a good dagger. But don't let that hinder you.

2. I personally couldn't find a good stunlock build that I liked... I guess they get more viable the more talent points you have. You can start thinking about playing stunlock when you hit lv30 and have kidney. Prep seems good for the extra restealths and hemo for adding a combo point for only 35 energy. Dirty deeds is also sweet... See what you can make out of it.

Something like my build 4 would probably be a good basis for a stunlock build. I just played it bursty instead of stunlocky because I am full geared and my ambush deals huge dmg, so I prefer to open with ambush. However, with lower gear cheap shot may be a better option. The prep spec can stunlock pretty well if you really want to. With prep you have 2 vanish and 2 blind. In 1v1 that's 4 restealths and you should be able to win almost any duel, no matter if you open with cheap shot or ambush and even with bad gear. That's why I like prep the most, because it gives you many options.

3. I see backstab as your main dmg source and would get imp backstab first (maybe remorseless attacks first if you go that route). Also don't underestimate imp gouge, especially in PvP. It give you more time to bandage, reg energy and you might even be able to restealth.

 

Hope it helped, but keep in mind that I don't have that much experience regarding leveling. After all I'm playing mainly PvP.

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21 minutes ago, Frombehindyo said:

Hope it helped, but keep in mind that I don't have that much experience regarding leveling. After all I'm playing mainly PvP.

That's very helpful, thanks!  I'm asking more from a PvP perspective as well, sorry for not making that clear, so that's what I was looking for.

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Frombehindyo,

Hey man just wanted to give you a quick update on my progress. I'm level 59 and finally knocking on the door of 60. At this point I'm having somewhat of a dilemma. I have played both hemo and backstab/ambush quite a bit at this point. I really can't seem to decide which is the better route for me to take. Hemo spec seems much easier to manage and has better control. But backstab/ambush is very bursty and feels more like a rogue. So I guess I wanted to get an update from you if your feelings towards a certain build or another has changed in hopes that it could help me. Retrain is expensive so I don't want to keep doing it just because I'm indecisive...lol. I also had a few questions concerning each build:

Hemo Spec

1. I normally take improved sap but I find I'm not really using it that much. Would Setup be a better or equal alternative to take in your view.

2. In the assassination tree portion what do prefer between improved expose armor, vile poisons, and improved poisons? 

Current idea is something like this: http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#fhe0oxtZhZxMe0hhRo

Dagger/Ambush Spec

1. The biggest issue I face with the spec is that if I want to get Cold Blood I have to sacrifice MoD. I really don't like that. This spec is stretched thin as it is trying to grab all the good talents. Anyways this is the spec I'm thinking of if I go this direction: 

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#fhe0oxZhfZEMec00R

Thanks for  your thoughts and guidance

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Here's something that's a bit ironic for you to consider.

With a Hemo build, you don't want to be using Poisons on your weapons (I know, heresy, right?) ... you want to be using Sharpening/Weight stones, depending on whether your weapons are edged or blunt.  The extra damage from sharpening doesn't rely on a chance to affect, it consistently happens on every single hit.  Furthermore, Hemo increases physical damage dealt, and Sharpening/Weight stones increase physical damage dealt.  Also, the Sharp/Weight stones don't have charges on them, they just have a duration, so you don't have to keep reapplying them faster than the duration.  And if you "know" a Miner/Blacksmith they're dirt cheap to obtain.

So long as you're in a situation where you don't need to be using specialty poisons (anything besides the damaging ones), if you're using Hemo you might as well be using Daggers and Sharpening stone(s), and the Sharpening bonus isn't normalized by weapon speed, because it's bonus damage on every hit, meaning you'll get "more" out of sharpening fast Daggers than you will out of sharpening slow ones measured over the same span of time (in which presumably you're making more hits).

That means there's a curious edge case with Hemo where you're wanting to create the highest possible amount of physical damage at ALL times, rather than intermittently applying poison damage some of the time (chance to take effect).  And by increasing the amount of physical damage you're doing with your Dagger(s), you also bump up the amount of damage throughput you can achieve from Ambush, just by sharpening your main hand Dagger.  That then reduces the "need" for Vile and/or Improved Poisons.

Furthermore, if you've got a Hemo spec, you're honestly better off using Hemo twice (35+35 Energy) than you are using Backstab once (60 Energy).  You can also "stab them in the face" rather than needing to Gouge and maneuver for a back shot all the time.  In fact, when including the Energy cost of Gouge into the equation (never mind the talent points!), you need 105 Energy to Gouge+Backstab (45+60) ... while for the same 105 Energy you could have used Hemo THREE TIMES (35+35+35) and likely gotten more damage out of the latter than the former (even with a Backstab crit).  There's also the fact that the former nets you only a single Combo Point, while the latter nets you THREE Combo Points(!) without needing any kind of positioning setup or cooldowns, making the Hemo/Hemo/Hemo usage of 105 Energy much less circumstances/situation dependent.

Combine those factors together ... Hemo, Ambush, Sharpening versus Poisons ... and suddenly the advantages of going to Tier 5 in Assassination diminish rather dramatically.  Indeed, with Deadliness from Subtlety increasing your Attack Power and Serrated Blades increasing your Rupture damage (which as a Bleed effect isn't reduced by Armor) and Hemo increasing that even further, you reach a point where in some situations it's better to Rupture than it is to Eviscerate as your 5 CP Finisher, for that "you're already dead, you just haven't gotten the memo yet" effect.  Still, if you're raiding, the debuff cap will change the calculus of all this.

For me, the logic of Hemo x3 versus Gouge+Backstab and the consideration of 3 CP vs 1 CP for that 105 Energy spent is pretty much inescapable.  You open with Ambush on low armor targets, or open with either Garrote or Cheap Shot on higher armor targets.  Hemo your way to 5 CP as fast as you can and then either Rupture or Eviscerate depending on how fast you need to end the fight.  Spend your next CP(s) on a Slice and Dice and then simply lay into your target with more Hemo and fast white damage that amounts to a consistent physical DoT instead of relying on poison procs to apply Nature damage.  Gives you the flexibility for either Instant Kill (Ambush to Eviscerate) or Overkill (Garrote to Rupture to Slice and Dice).

Pick which of these two options exploiting all that you'd prefer.  The Assassination one is a CP/Finisher monster that is just insanely efficient on Energy consumption/demand to repeatedly reach 5 CPs for max power Finishers.  The Combat build is a more "defensive" type designed to leverage Setup for greater "free" generation of CPs, more hit chance with both hands (so more consistent damage generation), and the Disarm power of Riposte, which can act as a "neutralizer" in a lot of situations.

17/0/34: http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#fhe0oxZZxMechhRqo
0/16/35: http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#fZ0xEzZxMeshhRqo

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Thanks for your reply Roxanne. I love it!  So your hemo spec you listed meant to be used with daggers?  I always thought that daggers and hemo was a bad combination. But you make a lot of sense here. Ambush talents are in the sub tree which requires a dagger yet If I want to use hemo I need to switch to a sword/mace. Seems stupid to me. Sub is about stealth openers and finishers.  Anyways I love the deep sub build you posted. But shouldn't opportunity be picked as well to boost ambush damage?

Maybe something like this: http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#fhe0oZZEMechhRqo

Dropped Lethality since it only affects hemo and grabbed opportunity. What do you think? I like your ideas here. I'm just trying to understand them since it goes against the grain of what you normally hear...which I like btw. :)

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Okay so tried out http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#fhe0oZZEMechhRqo and I absolutely love it! The spec feels great and has lots of synergy. To me this is what some of the other sub pvp cookie cutter specs were missing. So this may not be the best spec and of course using daggers with hemo is always considered bad. But this is the best feeling spec I've played and it plays great as well. Thanks again Roxanne for your different perspective. 

So it seems to me that using backstab with a sub spec is the issue. Using hemo makes more sense. But the job of hemo isn't really for damage. It's for cheap CB building and as a debuff. So sub is really about openers and finishers and great bleeds. Along with set up I had plenty of combo points and finally I wasn't energy starved. You finally made the vanilla version of the rogue make sense to me. Thank you. Thank you.

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2 hours ago, cbarchuk said:

Thanks for your reply Roxanne. I love it!  So your hemo spec you listed meant to be used with daggers?

More like it's one that makes use of Daggers rather than being one that HAS to use Daggers.  If you want to use Swords or Maces or Fist Weapons instead, you just drop the 3 points from Improved Ambush and invest them anywhere else that strikes your fancy.  You could easily put those 3 points into Improved Gouge if you want to go for more of a stunlocking build, or Improved Sap if that's your preference, or even Improved Slice and Dice, or ... lots of different places, really.  Remove 5 points from Lethality too, since like you said that's only boosting crits on Hemo attacks, and you've got a pool of 8 points to play around with to spend in lots of different places.

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#fhe0oZZxMe0hhRqo

The reason to go with Ambush and Daggers is to have a huge alpha strike that stands a decent chance of One Shot Kill on opening if you crit the hit.  If you can do that against foes, that's often good enough, either in PvE or in PvP.

2 hours ago, cbarchuk said:

I always thought that daggers and hemo was a bad combination. But you make a lot of sense here. Ambush talents are in the sub tree which requires a dagger yet If I want to use hemo I need to switch to a sword/mace. Seems stupid to me. Sub is about stealth openers and finishers.

I played a build similar to the combat/subtlety one I posted back in vanilla and TBC and was quite happy with it.  The combo points generated quickly, I could get "free" CPs from dodging incoming attacks, which with enough Dodge chance meant that a good Defense also made for a good Offense (strangely enough), and because it didn't take "forever" to build up the CPs I was always looking ahead towards what Finisher I wanted to burn 5 CPs on.  With Premeditation it was a snap to get to 5 CPs in "no time" after opening.

Premeditation (2 CP) + Ambush (1 CP) + Initiative proc (75% chance for 1 CP) + Hemorrhage (1 CP) = 5 CP = Finisher ... either Eviscerate or Rupture usually.

Sometimes when Initiative didn't proc, Setup would on a Dodge, and there I'd have 5 CPs for a Finisher.  I built my spec with as much Agility as I could muster for higher Dodge chances to get more mileage out of Setup for "free" Combo Points when Dodging incoming attacks, which is why I also went with Lightning Reflexes in the Combat tree for even more Dodge.

Once I got to the Plaguelands, I actually went out and bought a pair of Julie's Daggers and put Lifestealing enchants on both of them.  Yeah, hardly BiS by any means, but DAMN if those daggers and those enchants didn't make a world of difference in the amount of punishment my Rogue could take!  It basically made for FOUR "heal procs" coupled with "damage procs" from the Lifesteal enchants, and because they're Fast Daggers (1.30 speed) they'd be proccing A LOT and extending my Health bar just by attacking.  In fact, more than once, it was the smarter play to stand and stick rather than cut and run because the healing from my daggers stood a better chance of keeping me alive to the end of the fight than turning and fleeing would have.

And yes, I was doing this on a Hemo spec build going deep into Subtlety.  It was SO Off The Wall that it completely jumped the wall and found a stable platform on the other side.  Yeah, my individual hits were smaller per hit because my Daggers were fast rather than slow, but once I got a Slice and Dice up, weapon speed went from 1.30 to 1.00 and basically delivered physical damage at DoT speed while proccing heals on me.  It was just nuts.  Whole thing played more like a "pressure" build than a "spike" build, where all I had to do was maintain contact in order to have ... options ... including a 5 CP Kidney Shot to get a head start on making an escape if things went sideways.

The thing that I always liked about the Ambush/Hemo spec build was that rather than defining you down into riding a One Trick Pony, instead the spec opened things up to where you could pick and choose how you wanted to engage in a really wide variety of situations.  Because it made building CPs both cheap and fast, it meant that you had a lot more options for how to handle different circumstances and bring your "A game" of max combo finishers to bear in a much more timely fashion.

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3 hours ago, cbarchuk said:

Anyways I love the deep sub build you posted. But shouldn't opportunity be picked as well to boost ambush damage?

Maybe something like this: http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#fhe0oZZEMechhRqo

Dropped Lethality since it only affects hemo and grabbed opportunity. What do you think? I like your ideas here. I'm just trying to understand them since it goes against the grain of what you normally hear...which I like btw. :)

Judging from your response, you seem to be ... pleased ... and that's really all that matters.

As for picking up Opportunity ... rather than Lethality, it's really a judgement call.

Lethality is really only affecting crit bonus damage on:

  • Sinister Strike (not using, because Hemorrhage is better and cheaper)
  • Gouge (don't use with Garrote, Rupture or other bleed damage attacks or DoTs)
  • Backstab (not using, because you "front stab" with Hemorrhage instead)
  • Ghostly Strike (not purchased in that build)
  • Hemorrhage (using a LOT, multiple times per Finisher on average)

Opportunity is really only increasing the damage on:

  • Backstab (not using, because you "front stab" with Hemorrhage instead)
  • Garrote (used occasionally on high armor targets)
  • Ambush (used a LOT in an Ambush build, but have to be in Stealth to use it at all)

It's a bit of a toss up as to which will be better for you in the really long run, but there is of course something to be said for One Hit Kills using Ambush, or at least hitting so hard that a quick 5 CP Eviscerate chaser makes for a nasty Three Hit Kill when doing a Premeditation/Ambush/Hemo/Eviscerate/thankyouforplaying combo.

And that's not even including being able to Vanish 2-4 times per 10 minutes thanks to Preparation.

14 minutes ago, cbarchuk said:

Okay so tried out http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#fhe0oZZEMechhRqo and I absolutely love it! The spec feels great and has lots of synergy. To me this is what some of the other sub pvp cookie cutter specs were missing. So this may not be the best spec and of course using daggers with hemo is always considered bad. But this is the best feeling spec I've played and it plays great as well. Thanks again Roxanne for your different perspective. 

It really is one of those cases where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.  There's just SO MUCH happening in that build to conserve Energy and generate Combo Points (for "free" even!) that it'll have you almost constantly building up and burning down your combos and finishers that it'll feel like you can take on almost anything and win.  It does what a lot of other builds won't ... it builds on a cornerstone of OPTIONS rather than riding a One Trick Pony.

And yes, the whole idea of using Sharpening/Weight stones instead of Poisons really runs counter to the conventional wisdom for Rogues, especially with the whole "slow main hand/fast off hand" conventional wisdom that a lot of people hold to because they like to see BIG NUMBERS when attacking from Stealth to open combat ... but the simple fact of the matter is that you'll get more benefit out of Sharpening/Weight stones on fast weapons hitting more often than you would on slow weapons hitting less often.  So you want to think of an Ambush/Hemo spec as being more like a Physical Damage Fighter than something that is optimized for poisons or other magical effects, like everyone else goes for.

Oh and ... You're Welcome ... *^_^*

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you need 105 Energy to Gouge+Backstab (45+60) ... while for the same 105 Energy you could have used Hemo THREE TIMES (35+35+35)

I don't agree. A full gouge can be considered costing no energy, because while they are gouged you reg the energy that you used for it. So it's basically a free combopoint.

Dmg wise two hemo are around the same as one backstab, but with hemo you get one combopoint more.

 

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I normally take improved sap but I find I'm not really using it that much.

If you don't use it much then you don't have to take it. But to be honest I think you should start using sap more often - it's great.

 

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Looks good, but why no ghostly strike? It's great with setup and takes only one talent point. I'd even take it without having setup.

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Brook,

I'm not sure. I'm using both of those talents and I can't tell. My ambush seems to crit more often than not so who know. MoD, just not sure.

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