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Feit

New Tank Build

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Hi guys, iv played this game for years but new to tanking and was playing around with different builds. I know threat is very important, especially if you wanted to do quick runs so I came up with this build

 http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#LhhxzhbZVVZViz0eMo

The thinking is max tps. I could go with the more standard tanking builds to start; this would be a build for later on once raids were on farm.

With anger management couldn't I just keep pooling rage?

When pooling rage can't I dump more Revenge>Sunder/HS 

I know there's no shield slam which is the number one threat ability. But with this build I feel like I would be making up for that by generating a lot more rage I can dump into other abilities less costly. 

If impale mostly affects shield slam, would this then be a better alternative?

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#LhbxzZVV0V0LZViz0e

No imp shield block because again, from a tps perspective just how useful is it really? I feel like the only time you would actually really need to use shield block would be twin emps?

Just a thought, this is just a hypothetical build and just curious what ya think. 

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@Feit

A few things to note:  Imp heroic strike is one of the last talents you'll take.  You don't use it very often compared to all of your other abilities.

9 hours ago, Feit said:

With anger management couldn't I just keep pooling rage?

You will learn rage pooling without this talent.  When tanking a mob(s) once you feel you have established threat, before it is dead stop spamming abilities, only auto attack and revenge on CD.   Allow time for healers to drink, blood rage to keep yourself in battle and top off your rage bar, when healers are full mana pull the boss.  - How to speed up your raids 101, don't stare at bosses for 10 minutes before engaging.  Practice this and you fill find the additional points put into arms for this 1 talent is a waste.  

5/5 Parry is essential, as not only does it add melee haste, but it allows you to further gear itemization flexibility.  Not all fights are TPS fights, sometimes your job is to simply stay alive.  Giving yourself 5% parry from talents you can swap out some def/avoidance gear for more +hit gear and be more effective while still being what you are, a tank.

9 hours ago, Feit said:

I know there's no shield slam which is the number one threat ability. But with this build I feel like I would be making up for that by generating a lot more rage I can dump into other abilities less costly. 

#2 Threat per Rage ability actually, second to Revenge.  No other talent combination will make up for not having shield slam.  It is also your bread and butter burst ability for snap aggro, solo farming, and in pvp.  LOL at all the priest bubbles I've dispelled and rekt soon after.  Mid-high armor targets you should get 620-700 crits with it, can crit cloth wearers for up to 1.2k damage.   With stacking +shield block value items and trinket from Sapp, you can get a 2.1k + shield slam crits on cloth.

9 hours ago, Feit said:

No imp shield block because again, from a tps perspective just how useful is it really? I feel like the only time you would actually really need to use shield block would be twin emps?

Unbridled Wrath triggers from melee damage, in your case would be auto and revenge.  Say you are using a 2.0 speed weapon, 30 autos and 10 revenge in 1 minute.  40 attacks, at 40% is 16 rage gained a minute or 0.266 rage a second you get in return for those 5 talent points.

Compare this to shield specialization 5/5 and 1/3 imp shield block.

A well geared tank will have close to 25% shield block.  A boss attacking at 2.5 seconds (not counting any extra abilities) you have 24 attacks in a minute that you can block.  @ 25% 6 will block giving you 6 rage.  More if and when fighting more than 1 mob, or if said mobs use abilities such as Mortal Strike, Trash, Unrelenting Strikes, and so on.

Then we also look at the 1/3 imp shield block.   How does this increase your TPS?  Same with taking 5% parry, this gives you more flexibility to use pure TPS gear. With imp shield block, this allows you to control your incoming damage to a much larger degree as to ensuring you do not get crushing or crit at the wrong time.  If TPS is the topic, I'll assume we are not wearing 440 def gear, and even if you are, crushing blows are still an issue without 1/3 imp shield block.

Yes on farmed bosses (except Broodlorde, Chromag Enrage, Twin Emps) you don't need to spam shield block all the time.  As it can be a threat benefit to eat a crit or crushing on purpose for spike rage.  However, that being said, when you chose to eat the additional damage is important.   Do so at 100% HP, then when you get dropped to 50% or below, THEN use your shield block ability to ensure you don't eat a second one before you are topped off.  This will keep your revenge uptime at 100% also increasing your threat.  Also feel free to carry a TPS shield that has decent shield block value and put a shield spike on it.  Bodes well for engineering shield as well.

That is now covered here are your builds to consider:

Impale builds are only worth it once you have decent agility/crit and you can maintain your world buffs throughout the raid.  There are a couple variances to the build:

No Thunderfury build:

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#LVhL0hbZcZgizoe0zVo

This allows you to stance dance for Thunderclap, berserker rage, whirlwind (5/10/20 mans).   You can also take 1 point out of tactical mastery and put it into Imp heroic strike if you are very good at stance dancing.  It only saves 15 rage, so you have to have a strong enough weapon to get 5 rage per non-crit white hit.  After a mob hits you in def stance, swap to arms, auto + clap, swap back to def before getting hit again.  It also forces you to rage dump more when needing to stance dance a fear and makes stance dancing for a whirlwind reserved for when blood rage is up.  4/5 tactical mastery is viable for more situations.  

Imp Sunder is critical when talking max TPS.  It is used as 50% of your globals, shield slam + revenge making up the other 50%.  So in 6 seconds you'll use Sunder 2 times.  3 rage saved each time.  That is saving 60 rage a minute.  Remember Unbridled Wrath only saved 16 a minute.  It also allows for more snap aggro, in the event you only have 12-14 rage, so you don't have to wait another 2.0 second auto (or getting hit) for that extra point of rage, at which point you may have lost the aggro already.  2/5 anticipation to allow for the imp sunder.   You stated this is after things are on farm, so I'd assume you'd have a max def set and with BiS BWL gear and using Spine Shatter you can still reach Def cap for when needed.

 

With Thunderfury build:

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#Lihb0hbZcZgizoe0zVo

Same thing as above, except you take 2 points out of tactical mastery (maintaining only 10 rage on stance dance for mocking blow) and 2/3 imp heroic strike, as there is no need to stance dance Thunderclap any more.   Rage dumping pre-berserker rage is still an issue, and whirlwind gets used much less in 5/10/20 mans, but it no longer needed as a AoE threat tool due to TF debuff proc.  You can argue that without TF, OTs should be using Thunderclap and you can take this spec now.  Well yes and no.  In a 40 man, yes (when you are having to split mobs like wyrmkin in BWL).  However in 5/10/20 mans, you may be the only Warrior Tank and will be relied upon to reduce mob attack speed by 10% (15% if you got 5/5 T2.5) and don't want to have to hang out in battle stance waiting for rage and lose def threat modifiers.

 

Naxx Progression Impale build:

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#Lihb0hbZcZEizox0dco

In this build you get 5/5 anticipation and 2/2 imp shield wall at the cost of losing 4% damage with 1h weapons and imp sunder.  This spec gives you all the survival tools needed + allows you to keep impale mocking blow stance dancing.  Naxx bosses for the most part do enough damage to keep your rage bar up that imp sunder isn't a big loss.  This allows more use of heroic strike which we take improved, making it 14% cheaper and more usage, making up for the 4% 1h damage loss in protection tree.   Off the top of my head, some key fights have enrages that the extra 5 seconds of shield wall will save a wipe and allow your raid to maintain world buffs.  Spider, Patch are the first 2 that come to mind.   Also it makes the 4H fight much easier, especially if you are the zerg tank for first horseman. You'll go heavy TPS gear on him and imp shield wall will keep you alive while raid burns it.  Even if not assigned to this add, limiting the damage in the first 30 seconds of the fight can make or break the fight while learning it.

You can take the points out of imp shield wall and put them into imp 1h if you like, depending on your guild needs. (I am currently this spec as Naxx isn't out yet)

 

Max Shield Block Value WPVP/Solo - Impale build:

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#LchxzhbZcZxizsx0zio

This build is the most different of all the ones above.  3/5 deflection to allow for Anger Management in the arms tree.  In protection tree, improved revenge (paired with 2/9 T3 set bonus) and improved shield bash are taken as these are OP in WPVP and when grinding and 0/5 anticipation (in BiS Naxx gear you can hit 440 def without this talent).  5/5 Defiance is still taken to allow yourself to be a high TPS tank.  If you want to be full PVP, you can take 5/5 Iron Will instead of toughness - though doing so, you dedicate yourself to OT role in Naxx forever, lesser content should be fine for MT still.   This is the build I will use once Naxx is farmed and I want to play around with more WPVP, help people in lesser content.  10/20 mans, the stuns/silencing are uber.  As the majority of raids are trash mobs, in instances that you can affect mobs with said abilities, the less healing needed, the faster the run.

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Thanks for the detailed reply undertaker. Very informative. I enjoyed the read, I didn't think mine were viable specs but I wanted to get some info on them, how they would or wouldn't work and the benefits of your builds. 

Curious though about the stance dancing you mentioned. Why use thunderclap in a 5 or 10 man instance? Doesn't it create like no threat and in raid gear, even in pre raid Bis mobs don't hit too hard for the debuff to be that necessary, or am I missing something here?

Also why the extra points in improved HS in a couple of builds, been reading a lot of posts here and isn't a very slow hard hitting weap the way to go? How would that help?

And lastly I was reading stuff everywhere, on other forums too, just trying to gather as much info as I could and I read a post on the crestfall forums discussing exactly what you were talking about with the stance dancing and WW and a lot of the people on there seemed against the idea of stance dancing, to quote one of the posts;

"Here's a more concrete example: you Charge in, swap to Berserker Stance, get to the mobs and wait half a second to WW. You then go into Defensive Stance and then start using your prot abilities. So let's say 300 dmg a hit: you generate 240 threat on the Skull about 1 second after the Charge, then you WW 1.5 seconds after the Charge for 960 threat, swap to DStance and lane first threat ability (1200 threat). If you used Berserker Rage before the pull, that means less than 5 seconds left on it when you enter DStance. If you use it before going into DStance, you'll have generated a whooping 1420 threat in 6 seconds (2 autos, 4 WW).

I Charge in, go into Berserker Stance mid charge and hit Berserker Rage. I hit Skull and generate about 100 threat. I swap to DStance with a bit more than 9 seconds left on Berserker Rage, auto attack Skull again, Shield Slam the second target, Heroic Strike the third and Revenge the fourth. Total of 290ish threat on Skull, about 750 on the second target (Shield Slam), 450ish on the third target (Heroic Strike) and about 490 on the fourth target. Total of 1980 threat in 4 seconds. I Taunt the Skull during the swap back to DStance during the Berserker Rage GCD and then slap a Conc Blow on it. By then I have a full rage bar and a few seconds left on my Berserker Rage so I can still throw in another 3-4 HS before my rage starts going down."

Just curious on what you thought of his take vs the stance dance. 

 

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http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#LcZVg0VMxoVoxfzox

This is also a decent build in AQ gear, as it has lots of crit chance.

Your threat is immense with world buffs and you get to keep the very best talents in the protection tree. (with improved demoralizing shout you can reduce the attack power of mobs to practically 0 despite curse of recklessness being on.)
Improved execute is for vaelastrasz and easy content.
Venturing into Naxxramas though, you'll likely swap out conqueror pieces for dreadnaught, losing crit.
You'll likely want improved shield wall as well, but for now this spec is awesome.

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4 hours ago, Wericia said:

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#LcZVg0VMxoVoxfzox

This is also a decent build in AQ gear, as it has lots of crit chance.

Your threat is immense with world buffs and you get to keep the very best talents in the protection tree. (with improved demoralizing shout you can reduce the attack power of mobs to practically 0 despite curse of recklessness being on.)
Improved execute is for vaelastrasz and easy content.
Venturing into Naxxramas though, you'll likely swap out conqueror pieces for dreadnaught, losing crit.
You'll likely want improved shield wall as well, but for now this spec is awesome.

Amagawd Wericia giving out state secrets. Sebbi will be disappoint:D

EDIT: Jokes aside though. This is an AMAZING spec from a pure threat perspective and especially for a dedicated Vael-tank.

Just look at that, suych amase!

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/FightOverview.aspx?Raid=80372&Fight=1

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Lol Sebbi :D Member' him from way back in <Enigmatic> when he was just a scrub.

OnT: Nice spec's indeed! I've mainly splayed with some impale/cruelty version myself (like undertakers "Naxx Progression Impale build").. but then rage has not been this sparse :>

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@feit

Thunderclap reducing attack speed by 10% is like having 10% dodge.  Why wouldn't you apply it when you can?

It is the best rebuff for survivability you can put on a mob outside of Thunderfury / Icy Weapon.

To sum up your question about stance dancing and the Crestfall 2019 fanboys, in 5/10 mans it isn't all about threat.  You are a large percent of the group DPS as well and you still have concussive blow, taunt, mocking blow as needed.  350+ dps on trash pulls isn't too shabby for a tank in 5/10 mans.

What speeds up a run faster, is situational and a per pull based.  You may stance dance specific pulls, others not.  

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On 24.7.2017 at 6:49 PM, Storfan said:

EDIT: Jokes aside though. This is an AMAZING spec from a pure threat perspective and especially for a dedicated Vael-tank.

Just look at that, suych amase!

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/FightOverview.aspx?Raid=80372&Fight=1

So, which abilities did he use on Vael?

Spamming the usual tank rotation until 20% and then just execute with recklessness?

@Storfan Pls Senpai, answer me :(

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On 2017-07-28 at 6:28 AM, Brynja said:

So, which abilities did he use on Vael?

Spamming the usual tank rotation until 20% and then just execute with recklessness?

@Storfan Pls Senpai, answer me :(

I dont know, you'd have to ask him.

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