Shadow Priest Theorycraft by Killerduki

[Asphycsia 0]

Those logs are extremely skewed and prove nothing. How are you really going to say that they prove Duki's point. So far every fight I have looked at you are showing 33 members, 31 members, 32 members. The few that i saw with 40 people just show that the rest of the dps aren't doing very good numbers. That is such a flawed way to theorycraft. Shouldn't be skewing your theorycrafting to account for other players being terrible or undermanning content.

 

But of course I should have expected that the other paladin would come in and attempt to further the idiocy of duki's "theorycrafting"

Edited December 5, 2016 by Asphycsia

[Theloras 108]

Those logs are extremely skewed and prove nothing. How are you really going to say that they prove Duki's point. So far every fight I have looked at you are showing 33 members, 31 members, 32 members. The few that i saw with 40 people just show that the rest of the dps aren't doing very good numbers. That is such a flawed way to theorycraft. Shouldn't be skewing your theorycrafting to account for other players being terrible or undermanning content.

 

But of course I should have expected that the other paladin would come in and attempt to further the idiocy of duki's "theorycrafting"

 

lolwut?

And now Smite comes into play... We've reached the peak, guys.

 

Yea, thanks again for proving that Distilled > Power

[Asphycsia 0]

You claim that smiter's logs proves duki's point of int>spellpower which is what the discussion is. Look at those logs again and you will notice that a number of the recordings are only showing the group as having 31-33 people.

 

Case in point:

 

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/FightOverview.aspx?Raid=37063&Fight=7

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/FightOverview.aspx?Raid=54018&Fight=3

 

Some have 40:

 

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/FightOverview.aspx?Raid=37835&Fight=4

 

Using those logs to say smiter does x with distilled wisdom over spellpower flask is flawed. If you wanted to use those logs to prove duki's point, you would need to actually show that having that 2k mana for max rank consecrate out weighs having the 70 spell power. I don't know enough about spell power interaction and the benefits for a ret pally. But let's also acknowledge that this was a discussion about shadowpriests and not ret paladins so using logs from realmplayers (which provide 0 context about the actual dps done, other than raw overall numbers) for a different class, shouldn't be applied. 

Edited December 6, 2016 by Asphycsia

[killerduki 54]

By Aphycsia, on 06 Dec 2016 - 2:17, said:

You claim that smiter's logs proves duki's point of int>spellpower which is what the discussion is. Look at those logs again and you will notice that a number of the recordings are only showing the group as having 31-33 people.

 

Case in point:

 

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/FightOverview.aspx?Raid=37063&Fight=7

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/FightOverview.aspx?Raid=54018&Fight=3

 

Some have 40:

 

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/FightOverview.aspx?Raid=37835&Fight=4

 

Using those logs to say smiter does x with distilled wisdom over spellpower flask is flawed. If you wanted to use those logs to prove duki's point, you would need to actually show that having that 2k mana for max rank consecrate out weighs having the 70 spell power. I don't know enough about spell power interaction and the benefits for a ret pally. But let's also acknowledge that this was a discussion about shadowpriests and not ret paladins so using logs from realmplayers (which provide 0 context about the actual dps done, other than raw overall numbers) for a different class, shouldn't be applied.

 

 

 

Just to confirm my claim:

 

I played Shadow Priest same as Protection Paladin over 10 years, i was topping World DPS over years while i was playing retail from 2005-2013.

 

Some of my top meters are still present even today thru Archives , the rest was unfortunately deleted since they are out of date.

 

Here is just one small bit of evidence where you can see me between world Top Spriest DPS from "Retail" in one of the expansions:

 

 

You might argue that this was different expansion , but sorry for that case if you truly believe, because i originally play this game since 2005.

 

Keep this screenshot as example and evidence of my Skills , regardless how hard you will crusade against me with excuses after this comment .

So sad my friends from retail that played with me does not play world of warcraft anymore , otherwise i would been glad to hear them about our great old times .

 

/Kind regards Killerduki

Edited December 6, 2016 by killerduki

[killerduki 54]

I mean really long fights, like 10min+ stuff. Nef, C'thun, etc.

 

Spriest mana just can't keep up because you only have mana potions and runes. In full T2/T3 gear, sure, you'll get a bit more longevity, but on those really long fights, you'll OOM yourself really fast if you do full DPS.

 

C'thun (is friendly mana) you dps Boss at P1 and then you focus on Tentacles and Stomach that provides you often Spirit Tap so you most likely regenerate maximum mana.

P2 You do not DPS Boss until his shield is not down from Stomach , probably wand dmg is okey in that case.

 

Actually the fight is in favor of Spriest due to "Mobs" (Tentacles) and if you timing Mind Blast to hit last Tentacle, then you will have nice Mana via Spirit Tap regeneration thru the fight and less likely to OOM + you need to consider here the "idle mana regeneration" because it is useless to DPS Boss when he have 99% Damage reduction by his "Shield" (i call it shield because it reduce dmg income by 99%).

 

Nefarian is indeed long fight , but not like others says 15 minutes.   In fact you regen so high from killing Mobs and timing Mind Blast for kills in P1.

The fight against Boss in P2 will probably cost you 4-7 Minutes maximum which is also doable to manage.

 

/Kind regards Killerduki

Edited December 6, 2016 by killerduki

[Undertanker 88]

Here is a better list of AVERAGE performance of current Shadow-Priest across all servers:

 

MC+BWL:

 

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/Ranking.aspx?Bosses=000102030405060708090B0C0D0E0F0G0H0I&realm=All&ClassLimit=Pr

 

ZG+AQ20:

 

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/Ranking.aspx?Bosses=0J0K0L0M0N0O0P0Q0W0X0Y0Z1A1B&realm=All&ClassLimit=Pr

 

You can click their name to view their gear selections.

 

Note a lot of DPS for ANY class is based off of kill times.  This just allows you to see what they wear.

 

These links will give a lot more data once Nost/Elysium is up and running and have a few months of raids on them. (raidstats was wiped mid March).

[killerduki 54]

Here is a better list of AVERAGE performance of current Shadow-Priest across all servers:

 

MC+BWL:

 

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/Ranking.aspx?Bosses=000102030405060708090B0C0D0E0F0G0H0I&realm=All&ClassLimit=Pr

 

ZG+AQ20:

 

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/Ranking.aspx?Bosses=0J0K0L0M0N0O0P0Q0W0X0Y0Z1A1B&realm=All&ClassLimit=Pr

 

You can click their name to view their gear selections.

 

Note a lot of DPS for ANY class is based off of kill times.  This just allows you to see what they wear.

 

These links will give a lot more data once Nost/Elysium is up and running and have a few months of raids on them. (raidstats was wiped mid March).

 

The problem with RaidStats is they often Delete Ranks , there was Spriests doing over 1.2k DPS in these fights via Intellect/Mp5/Spirit Gear.

 

Just example how Raidstats delete often Ranks :

 

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/FightOverallOverview.aspx?FightName=Nefarian&realm=All&ClassLimit=Pa

 

 

(this is not against people mention , it is just example why RaidStats is not always accurate).

 

Here you can see Top DPS for Nefarian today and the Gear used , meanwhile if you been online like 2 years ago , then you would seen this :

 

 

 

/Kind regards Killerduki

Edited December 6, 2016 by killerduki

[Undertanker 88]

........ AVERAGE..... AVERAGE..... AVERAGE, not "high score".    The Average is taken from your last 5 runs and gives an average DPS per boss fight and gives you the AVERAGE DPS for the run.  This is how you can get consistent numbers.

 

You can burst 100%, die on purpose and get "high score".

 

 

WTF you linking Pally meters for in Priest sub-forum anyways.

 

 

And your screen shots are from different days.  I guess you missed:

 

"(raidstats was wiped mid March)." even though you quoted me.

Edited December 6, 2016 by Undertanker

[killerduki 54]

........ AVERAGE..... AVERAGE..... AVERAGE, not "high score".    The Average is taken from your last 5 runs and gives an average DPS per boss fight and gives you the AVERAGE DPS for the run.  This is how you can get consistent numbers.

 

You can burst 100%, die on purpose and get "high score".

 

 

WTF you linking Pally meters for in Priest sub-forum anyways.

 

I posted as example why Raidstats is not accurate m8 , nothing specific.

 

Even "Average" this is often deleted , read careful : 

 

Boss fight average is calculated by taking the 5 best performing(for the player) encounters out of the last 6 attended.

If there are less than 3 encounters for the player in the database or the last attended encounter was more than 1 month ago, the player will not be included in the list.

 

/Kind regards Killerduki

[Undertanker 88]

Jesus Christ dude.   I've tried my best to deal with your autism over 2 years and try to reduce some of the slander going your way; but it really is wearing thin.

 

I'll quote myself again......

 

These links will give a lot more data once Nost/Elysium is up and running and have a few months of raids on them. (raidstats was wiped mid March).

 

For good measure:

 

These links will give a lot more data once Nost/Elysium is up and running and have a few months of raids on them.

[Docholy 4]

You know Duki was banned on Crestfall forums for his trolling.  His picture "Holy Resist" was a meme he wears like a badge of honour. HAHAHAHAH

[killerduki 54]

You know Duki was banned on Crestfall forums for his trolling.  His picture "Holy Resist" was a meme he wears like a badge of honour. HAHAHAHAH

 

http://forums.crestfall-gaming.com/index.php?/profile/364-killerduki/

 

/Kind regards Killerduki

[taladril 43]

I'm just happy that it seems he didn't play druid back in the day. lessens the impact on our forums.

[Theloras 108]

You know Duki was banned on Crestfall forums for his trolling.  His picture "Holy Resist" was a meme he wears like a badge of honour. HAHAHAHAH

 

In the end Killerduki was proven to be correct as Darkrasp admitted himself:

 

 

I have to admit publicly that I was wrong about Holy Resistance.  I could have just ignored the issue or insisted I was right, but I feel a moral imperative to admit when I'm wrong and apologize.  I was a jerk about it and now I'm eating crow.  I was kind of right, the client data for Holy Resist indicates in every way that items with +All Resist should affect it.  In most cases where Blizzard made a big sweeping change, they made those changes in their database, the proper way.  Turns out that for Holy Resistance they did a jerk move and created a server-side hackfix that just zeroed out any Holy Resist gains from gear or auras before finishing their resistance calculation.  Level differential still applies to Holy spells as normal, but gains from the MOD_RESISTANCE aura are all nullified inside the resist calculations.  Nothing in the client data indicates this, and that's why I was so adamant that it was correct.

 

http://forums.crestfall-gaming.com/index.php?/topic/1221-darkrasps-update-11282016/

 

As far as his "Killerduki - Holy Resistance" meme picture, I am the one who suggested that he use it as his avatar in a similar fashion as Prince and Dave Chapelle:

 

"That's Checkmate right there!"

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCMthBc3zew

Edited December 6, 2016 by Theloras

[Docholy 4]

I'm fully aware his inconsequential contribution to the community. My point still stands at how funny it was.  He was so adamant to make sure his terrible DPS spec known as ret was not going to get any resist since it would make it that much less relevant.  My hat goes off to the man but he is using that nominal contribution as a platform to dispense misinformation, to the point that is can be argued he is trolling.  

[Theloras 108]

I'm fully aware his inconsequential contribution to the community. My point still stands at how funny it was.  He was so adamant to make sure his terrible DPS spec known as ret was not going to get any resist since it would make it that much less relevant.  My hat goes off to the man but he is using that nominal contribution as a platform to dispense misinformation, to the point that is can be argued he is trolling.  

 

He's offering as alternative opinion to the preconceived min/max spec/playstyle - nothing more nothing less - you are free to disagree with him as are you with me but he is entitled to his opinions as am I.

 

That's the beauty of Vanilla WoW - people are free to try out different things and go against the grain. People aren't spoon fed their talents/abilities like they are on current retail. You are free to experiment and see where you can push the envelope.

 

I for one enjoy the challenge and why I spec Ret in PvE or Reck for PvP - different strokes for different folks.

Edited December 6, 2016 by Theloras

[Maxvla 0]

After a few hours of debate on discord, this was the result of the tests Killerduki requested. He provided the fight length and the stats to be weighed. He provided the limits. I simply ran the test.

 

What actually happens in game -

 

500dmg + consumes = 96292

500int + consumes = 95722

 

What doesn't happen in game -

 

500dmg - consumes = 54584

500int - consumes = 58266

 

What also doesn't happen in game -

 

500dmg - consumes no regen = 40634

500 int - consumes no regen = 46482

 

The result is clear that in a realistic situation where people spec for meditation, get raid buff mp5, and use potions/elixirs/weapon oil/runes... spell power wins. If you don't use any raid buffs or consumables, int wins. If you don't use any raid buffs consumables and don't spec for meditation, int wins.

 

In addition, stat budget favors spell power, so per item budget you will get more spell power than you could int. In a full 'bis' setup (including buffs/etc) I put together, the character had 900 spell damage and 400 int. Not only is spell power better in an even trade, you can get more spellpower very easily.

 

https://gyazo.com/853fa13b61e2caac4ba0a158a96500c8

Edited December 7, 2016 by Maxvla

[killerduki 54]

14. Discussion with ones who disapproving and crusading my Formula calling me wrong or spreading miss information thru Discord and this Topic, he went to test it out with his own Spread Sheet written :

 

1.

 

2.

 

3.

 

4.

 

Now conversation regarding the DPS increased thanks to 3 Pieces T2 and thanks to Mind Blast :

 

5.

 

6.

 

7.

 

135.xxx damage versus 119.xxx damage thanks to T2 and Mind Blast .

 

8.

 

Oh , snap shot  ^^^^^^^^^ .

 

9.

 

10.

 

 

/Kind regards Killerduki

Edited December 7, 2016 by killerduki

[killerduki 54]

the character had 900 spell damage and 400 int. Not only is spell power better in an even trade, you can get more spellpower very easily.

 

Now he came with results 2.1 : 1  where he compare 900 Spell Damage with 400 Intellect after he was completely wiped and disapproved by his own spread sheet there:

 

https://forum.elysium-project.org/index.php?showtopic=23585&p=252323

 

/Kind regards Killerduki

Edited December 7, 2016 by killerduki

[Maxvla 0]

Going a step further with the test (on my own initiative)... I removed mind blast from the test and repeated the conditions.

 

No mind blast -

 

500dmg + consumes = 102487 - (with mindblast = 96292)

500int + consumes = 81748 - (with mindblast = 95722)

 

500dmg - consumes = 58652 - (with mindblast = 54584)

500int - consumes = 60347 - (with mindblast = 58266)

 

500dmg - consumes no regen = 44051 - (with mindblast = 40634)

500int - consumes no regen = 48631 - (with mindblast = 46482)

 

So you can see that even his spell selection was incorrect for a fight of 240 seconds. In every case, except with 500int + consumables, cutting mindblast resulted in more damage. In the lone exception, the character did not oom before 240 seconds, thus the lower dps, higher efficiency rotation yielded lower damage. However, compare the figures and you'll see that 500 damage with consumables and no mind blast did more damage than any other combination.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Maxvla

[Docholy 4]

The test if flawed since it requires t2 set bonus. Real world application would remove 3 items of spellpower to achieve this. Additionally this test does not carry over to the BIS upgrades that are attainable when tier 2.5 comes along with its quest/rep rewards etc.

 

This entire premise is based off getting 3 piece of tier 2. This is the crux of the argument.  However you all did the test, just take into account real gear. You're cherry picking to say the least.

 

The best test would be putting a BIS healing priest in shadow spec to simulate intellect stacking + the tier set mp5 bonus+ the gears + mp5.

Than do a test with t2's BIS shadow priest gear. 

Throw in a BIS shadow priest in 3 piece t2 healing set and get all the numbers.  

 

Of course these numbers will only apply to t2, not the 2.5 increased in SP gear and set bonuses that made them ever better.

 

This theory craft is irrelevant due to the fact you're still not putting real world applications forward.  

 

What ever tools you used to theory craft the things you just did, do it again with the parameters I mentioned. If anything that will be the real world application and would go alot longer than cherry picking.

 

Edit; 

 

The test is also flawed in the stance that SP comes at the cost of intellect.  Gearing up tends to increase both, so pretending 500 intellect vs 500 sp is a possible scenario is flawed. The shear fact a Priest gets to 500 sp comes with significant upgrades to intellect as well as increases to crit. Taking away intellect completely and just having SP removes the innate crit table, making Spellpower less effective than its REAL GAME APPLICATION.  Once again this theory craft isn't even possible in game and the argument is for in-game stat weights. 

Edited December 7, 2016 by Docholy

[Maxvla 0]

The figures in my posts do not have any gear or set bonuses equipped. I created an item with 6% spell hit, and alternated 500 damage or 500 int. Just to be clear, there were no T2 set bonuses involved.

[Docholy 4]

If you all can be so kind as to show me some real math I'd like to run my own numbers. 

[Docholy 4]

If I can find a way to see stats of priest in certain gear.  Is their a way for me to see that? For example a t2 priest in bis gear and be able to see crit, mp5, etc? Or any other form of gear combination. If I can get Shadow priest coefficients too that will be nice. 

[Docholy 4]

The figures in my posts do not have any gear or set bonuses equipped. I created an item with 6% spell hit, and alternated 500 damage or 500 int. Just to be clear, there were no T2 set bonuses involved.

So its a test of a base mana shadow priest with 500 spell power vs a Base mana +500 intellect Shadow priest?

 

Edit;

 

That is like having a test on who can run faster to the fridge a 300 pound man or a toddler.  Need to make it a more realistic test.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Docholy