Is it realistic to go Disc/Holy for DPS?

[Ram 11]

Thank you for your detailed reply @Brem! To be honest I do not care about what was or is between you and the other guy here on the forums.

First of all, what I wrote was for the pro smite priest raid idea.

Fire mage: The crit aura from Owlkin IS irrelevant. If you can have another nightfall guy instead, you will gain 15% more damage on your casts more often. If you do not want to waste that slot with a nightfall guy, just bring another legit DPS. If you want to talk about calculations, write me PM. Healing should be good enough in most cases to bring priests in smite spec. When I think back and remember right, even <TEAM PLAGUE>, the hardcore PVE guild of Emerald Dream/Feenix used priests with PI spec to boost damage. If you do that your fights get a little shorter and you don't need uber priests. Might be different in naxx though.

Shadow Priest: If you run more than 3 warlocks, it is okay. but still you don't complain about 3 debuff slots and shit dps from a shadow priest to buff locks, but  you complain about 3 debuff slots from rets for smite priests, which I don't understand. Go on Kronos PTR and try smite dps vs lock dps without any buffs and you will see it is VERY decent. Smite priests run oom fast while locks have life tap, but yeah in <3 minute fights this should not be an issue.

Locks: I know many raids which are just fine with only 3 buff bot warlocks. If you want more, okay but you can also use another class for these slots.

3 Nightfall rets: You want to bring a moonkin which gives crit (aka 3-4% damage increase) to five players but  are against a second or third paladin to increase nightfall uptime (aka 15% damage increase), which is beneficial to the whole raid. I don't understand this.

Hunters: We finally agree! :-)

Debuffs: As far as I know TF uses 2 debuff slots and you should use Fairy Fire if possible, it boosts melee damage (which is heaviest) a lot (+2 debuff slots in your list). You know I am no fan of the shadow priest so -3 debuffs in your list.
Result: 4 free debuff slots in your list in total. Depending on the encounter you can switch between 2 additional ranks of judgement of wisdom plus 2 judgement of crusader, OR 4 judgement of the crusader, OR 4 judgements of light for fights like Loatheb, OR any combination of these judgements and other debuffs on boss.
I mean usually only the smite judgements should be needed, but you can be flexible with that. Go to that spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1lv1vWuN91ZpYY_76arZmkZRMUt_-GumJ1bCkpLQPUFI/edit?usp=sharing, download it and go to the third tab gear choices and play around with the buff settings and gear choices a bit. You will find that with four judgements of the crusader you can do 400 even in healing gear without ANY damage items a minimum of buffs and like 600 in shit pre raid gear. Plus you are very flexible with healing (2 main healers not signed up on raid? let 3 smite priests do it and bring other dps).

Again I agree with you that you can achieve a better raid dps with other raid compositions, but this one is funny and has yet to be done. :)

 

Edited February 3, 2017 by Ram

[Brem 0]

So as far as the PI spec goes, I think it's acceptable to have 1 or 2 for buffing the mages. My guild is progressing naxx right now and we can't really afford to sacrifice the healing for it. You do have to give up quite a bit for it. In my mind, I guess if you can't sacrifice the priest's healing then why even bother bringing an actual dps priest. This might be more doable MC / BWL / AQ40 though. It's an idea I've played around with for quite some months now but never really tested it out.

I might just be biased for the shadow priest since I raided as a warlock for awhile and always wanted that buff lol. I see what you're saything though. I guess it more so comes down to 15% damage bonus for the warlocks from shadow weaving vs. 15% damage bonus for all casters from nightfall. In which case, I guess nightfall would take precedence for being more beneficial for the raid.

I still strongly believe that bringing more than 3 locks is highly beneficial for the raid. They really let loose when they aren't hindered by SM/ruin imp buff spec. You're gonna need 2-3 debuff slots for their corruptions though still.

I would like to know the ppms on Nightfall and if it is working properly on Elysium right now (I assume it is, just to be sure).
So if, for example, you have 1 ret paladin with Nightfall, what would the uptime on it look like for a 3 min fight.
Then the increase in uptime from a 2nd.
Then the increase in uptime from a 3rd.
In my mind, I just see the marginal benefit falling off after a 2nd. Especially when you factor in the other debuff slots they will be taking up.
But if we're trying to buff up that big smite priest then I do see the point in taking a 3rd and 4th paladin (Even though I think it would make overall raid damage suffer and is a laughable idea at best, especially bringing more than 1 smite priest. But it is interesting for sure.).

50 minutes ago, killerduki said:

8 Paladins overall (2-3 Retri,1Prot,5 Holy)

I do not see the point in taking 8 paladins at all though. Especially not a prot paladin.
2-3 ret paladins for nightfall and judgements to buff the smite priest.
3-4 holy paladins for maybe 1 wisdom?
But that's probably the extent I would go for the smite priest.
 

34 minutes ago, Ram said:

As far as I know TF uses 2 debuff slots

Oh I believe you are correct with this. I thought you were counting on having 2 TFs in the raid. But I think you're right, it has the NR reduction debuff and the attack speed reduction debuff. My apologies.

It just feels like so many resources are unnecessarily getting put into buffing this 1 hybrid average dps spec which could be used much better in other ways. This is definitely funny and interesting though.

Thank you for the spreadsheet. I'll definitely take a look at it play around with the options.

[killerduki 54]

Quote

I do not see the point in taking 8 paladins at all though. Especially not a prot paladin.

Because with those Judgements and Smite Priest, Warrior Tank will be unable to handle the threats while Prot Paladin will be able to do it awesome and thus boost the dps by miles.

/Kind regards Killerduki

Edited February 4, 2017 by killerduki

[Fisher 5]

22 hours ago, Ram said:

For fire mages the crit from moonkins is irrelevant, because how many fire spell hit the target per 4s has a much bigger impact than some % crit.

Have you actually read the tooltip for Ignite? "Your critical strikes from Fire damage spells..." Sounds to me like critical strike chance is fairly relevant. Just because there are several mages doesn't change the fact those mages need the crit to maintain Ignite. Not to mention having more crit means more DPS in the first, and since, unlike holy DPS priests (lol), they crit for a lot more (and more often), I'd say it's worth putting them in a group with a balance druid.

22 hours ago, Ram said:

But yeah, please take some boomkins instead of nightfall givers.

 I never said to bring multiple. I can understand an argument being made to bring a single retribution paladin (Nightfall), but multiple is silly. Similarly, bringing multiple balance druids is a waste of raid slots. You stick your best 4 casters (warlocks, or mages if you're doing content where Fire is viable) in the group, and the rest can deal with it.

Honestly, I don't know why you're in this thread. It's about disc/holy DPS, not retribution paladins and Nightfall. Oh wait, I think I understand: you've taken every opportunity to hijack the thread and make it all about how you can keep your raid slot. If you hype up smite priests, you make yourself (a retribution paladin) useful to them, and by going a step further and saying you need 4-6 retribution paladins, you're also guaranteeing they'll take even the shittiest of retribution paladins just to have the debuff on the boss.

22 hours ago, Ram said:

Shadow weaving usually also looks very legit, but the shadow priest usually does low DPS and sacrifices 3 debuff slots (SWP, mind flay and Shadow weaving) to buff your 3 warlocks you usually have in the raid to summon and buff other classes. So rip shadow priest.

You can have a slot for SW:P if you're not wasting it on Judgment of the Crusader, but it isn't necessary to maintain Shadow Weaving. Mind Flay doesn't take up a debuff slot; it has a very low priority on the debuff priority list, so if you apply it, it will simply fail to apply the slow (which is the debuff part of the spell), but it will still deal its damage. Shadow Weaving is 15% damage; it's not insignificant.

Also... 3 warlocks? Why so few? No wonder you have this warped misunderstanding of the various classes and specs' usefulness; you've got a terrible raid composition.

22 hours ago, Ram said:

Hunters mark is the next item in your list of jokes. Also a very minor DPS increase for the 3 tranquers in your raid for one debuff slot.

Your hunters would greatly appreciate 126 more attack power for literally all their attacks. It's certainly more DPS than another lower ranked Judgement of the Crusader. Considering they'll be attacking the entire fight, there's no reason for it not to be present, especially if you free up the half dozen debuffs reserved for boosting a smite priest. Also helps if you have more hunters, but that varies from raid to raid, I suppose.

22 hours ago, Ram said:

I tested the dps on kronos ptr

Useless. This isn't Kronos. How things work on other servers is almost completely irrelevant to how they work here. Kronos isn't some garbage tier random server with 20 people, but the point still stands. Test it here, where it matters, or your results mean nothing.

18 hours ago, Brem said:

... wouldn't they want to use PI on themselves? If so, that would make that argument irrelevant because they wouldn't be buffing the mages. 

Short answer, yes and no. A good player (as good as one could be while playing disc/holy DPS) would be buffing the best caster in the raid, which probably would not be themselves... unless the entire raid would built around them doing high DPS. It basically boils down to who is the best geared and who is the best DPS in the raid. If that happens to be the priest, then there's no reason not to buff themselves.

18 hours ago, Brem said:

I do agree with you that high nightfall uptime will increase dps significantly. But can't this effect be seen through just 1 ret paladin using nightfall?

Yes. Its uptime with even a single retribution paladin is quite high. More Nightfalls obviously means higher uptime, but it has diminishing returns (not built-in game mechanics), in the sense that the first one will obviously be providing the most uptime per weapon. At that point, every extra Nightfall is just shrinking the amount of time remaining where Nightfall is not present. You'd have to figure out if it's worth it for your raid to have two or more melee sacrificing their damage by using an inferior weapon to buff the damage of the rest of the raid. 

18 hours ago, Brem said:

Also, most ret paladins would want to use an actual weapon instead of just being a buff bot for the casters.

Then they shouldn't be playing paladins. That's sort of how the class was designed; even retribution. That's also retribution's only viable role in a raid. They'll always be the best spec in the Alliance for using Nightfall, and their personal DPS is going to be subpar at best, so having them use Nightfall is sort of an inevitability. I'd say the only reason a retribution paladin shouldn't be using Nightfall in a raid is that they don't have it.

18 hours ago, Brem said:

I don't see there being a point for faerie fire either honestly, but that's a whole different story.

Reducing armor so the real DPS can do more damage.

18 hours ago, Brem said:

but you potentially increase the overall raid dps with other debuffs

You're making an argument for ret paladins wielding Nightfall, and you want to say that the guaranteed damage bonus is a possibility? I think you got things reversed. Nightfall is what potentially provides the raid with more DPS; Shadow Weaving, Moonkin Aura, and Leader of the Pack are what guaranteed provides the raid with more DPS, of course assuming that the players filling those roles aren't terrible.

I guess the argument you're making is that Nightfall potentially has the chance to give more DPS than the guaranteed buffs would? I'm not sure I follow. 

18 hours ago, Brem said:

And if you really hate the idea of a shadow priest because they take up 3 debuffs slots, you could force them to not use SWP just like you force the ret paladin to use nightfall. Hindering their dps but benefiting the raid more.

Where is everyone getting this idea that Mind Flay takes up a debuff slot? It will literally fail to apply the debuff if there's no room for it, but it will still deal its damage. Even if it applies the debuff and another debuff overwrites it, the channel will continue.

I do agree with the sentiment of having priests not use SW:P if you need room for other debuffs, though.

Edited February 4, 2017 by Fisher

[Ram 11]

I stopped reading after what you wrote about fire mages. You seem to have no clue of how ignite works and I bet if I had read on, I would have found even more flaws in what you have written. But I have no time for that.

Ignite stacking works mostly with the combustion talent and rolling it with scorch, unless you bring 10 or more mages in your raid. The difference in gear available is so small, that for the few options where you can choose between %crit and spell damage equal to that amount of %crit, you always take spell damage to get higher ignites. To keep up ignites you use scorch, which gains 4% extra crit from talents. The chance to gain another crit within the 4s of the ignite dot timer is 1-(1-crit rate*hit rate)^number of fire spells cast. So in an example, 4 mages in raid grouped with moonkin, having 25+3% crit and 99%hit, each mage is scorching, so 2 crits per 4s: 1-(1-0,28*0,99)^8=92,6% chance on another crit.

Now 5 mages and no moonkin, 25% crit, 99% hit, again scorching (so 10 crits in 4s): 1-(1-0,25*0,99)^10=94,2% chance to keep ignite rolling.

Okay, please keep preaching your nonsense BS, Fisher.

[Fisher 5]

2 hours ago, Ram said:

I bet if I had read on, I would have found even more flaws in what you have written. But I have no time for that.

Classic tactic. "I didn't even bother to read what you said, so you must be wrong." So convincing. You really make everyone believe you are correct when you outright refuse to address any points I make. LOL

3 hours ago, Ram said:

You seem to have no clue of how ignite works

I know exactly how it works, and how it's worked for pretty much every version of WoW. I also know that higher crit chance means less chance of Ignite falling off, so how you could possibly argue that 4 of the mages having 3% more crit would ever possibly be a bad thing.

3 hours ago, Ram said:

So in an example, 4 mages in raid grouped with moonkin, having 25+3% crit and 99%hit, each mage is scorching, so 2 crits per 4s: 1-(1-0,28*0,99)^8=92,6% chance on another crit.

Now 5 mages and no moonkin, 25% crit, 99% hit, again scorching (so 10 crits in 4s): 1-(1-0,25*0,99)^10=94,2% chance to keep ignite rolling.

Or just have 5 mages, and 4 of them go in the group with the boomkin. We were talking about replacing rets with boomkins and ferals, not mages.

I love that you call it "nonsense BS," yet you honestly think it's a choice between 5 mages or 4 mages and 1 boomkin. How about 5 mages and 1 boomkin? Then 4 of them have the extra 3% crit, and you keep the fifth. Since you're our math wizard, go ahead and crunch the numbers. Tell me the chance to keep Ignite rolling with that.

Spoiler alert: It's fucking higher.

OH! And don't forget that mages have higher DPS anyway as a result of more frequent crits. A 1.6% lower chance to keep Ignite rolling is probably worth 4 mages have 3% crit and however much more DPS that would grant them, so even in your example, it's definitely worth taking the boomkin. I know you'll say "if Ignite falls off, that's a massive DPS loss," and I'd agree, but we're talking very slim chances here.

Now, I'll admit... I actually don't know exactly how Combustion works. Nowhere I am looking shows its cooldown, and I don't actually have a mage. I was under the impression it was 10 minutes. It lasts 3 crits. 10% more crit chance for 3 crits, then it's gone for (probably) the rest of the fight. Is that not how it works in this patch/on this server?

...

But go ahead... continue to pick out one tiny, insignificant point and continue to change the conversation from disc/holy DPS to something else to continue avoiding the fact you still have not proven a priest can do 700 DPS as disc/holy "easily" without sacrificing your raid's overall DPS (Yeah, I'm waiting on that, still). The whole point of me bringing up the raid comp was to discuss how going so far to boost the damage of a priest is ridiculous because of what you sacrifice to get what you want. 

[Smiter 9]

8 hours ago, Fisher said:

 

Useless. This isn't Kronos. How things work on other servers is almost completely irrelevant to how they work here. Kronos isn't some garbage tier random server with 20 people, but the point still stands. Test it here, where it matters, or your results mean nothing.

 

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/FightOverview.aspx?Raid=33181&Fight=7

no need to test when there is raidstat proof of smite priest with only 1 judgement of the crusader and no where near BiS

[Pottu 290]

Keep the discussion civil. There is no reason for personal attacks and insults. Definitely do not bring up drama from other forums/servers.

[Deathlace 2]

I'm going to move the discussion away from this pointless argument. I have a mechanics question which, if someone could answer, would be great!

So my understanding is that there is no Holy Resistance on any mob other than level-based resistances. So this implies that raid bosses should have 15 level-based resistance (since it's 5 per level above you). Does Spell Penetration from gear work to bypass that 15 resistance?

Edited February 5, 2017 by Deathlace

[Roxanne Flowers 15]

http://vanillagaming.org/forum/index.php?topic=15951.0

Quote

How much Spell Penetration do you need
You will need to bring the monsters resistance all the way down to 0 if possible to deal your full damage.
A simple rule of thumb is that each 10 spell penetration adds 2.5% DPS increase on average.



Raid Bosses everywhere have: 145 resistance to Fire, Shadow, Frost, Arcane. 70 resistance to Nature, 15 resistance to Holy.
Note: Some may have slightly different resistances, and for example Ragnaros have extremely high Fire resistance. But the numbers above are accurate in 80% of the cases.

After Curse of the Elements and Curse of Shadows have been applied, you will need 70 spell penetration from gear to reach the cap in abomination wing. Mages need only 60 because they get 10 from the arcane talent: Arcane Subtlety.

 

[Deathlace 2]

@Roxanne Flowers

Thank you for that link. That seems to indicate to me that it is very worth using a single gear slot somewhere with spell penetration to bypass that remaining 15 Holy resistance, just to avoid the potential for partial resists altogether.

[Ram 11]

16 hours ago, Fisher said:

Classic tactic. "I didn't even bother to read what you said, so you must be wrong." So convincing. You really make everyone believe you are correct when you outright refuse to address any points I make. LOL

I know exactly how it works, and how it's worked for pretty much every version of WoW. I also know that higher crit chance means less chance of Ignite falling off, so how you could possibly argue that 4 of the mages having 3% more crit would ever possibly be a bad thing.

Or just have 5 mages, and 4 of them go in the group with the boomkin. We were talking about replacing rets with boomkins and ferals, not mages.

I love that you call it "nonsense BS," yet you honestly think it's a choice between 5 mages or 4 mages and 1 boomkin. How about 5 mages and 1 boomkin? Then 4 of them have the extra 3% crit, and you keep the fifth. Since you're our math wizard, go ahead and crunch the numbers. Tell me the chance to keep Ignite rolling with that.

Spoiler alert: It's fucking higher.

OH! And don't forget that mages have higher DPS anyway as a result of more frequent crits. A 1.6% lower chance to keep Ignite rolling is probably worth 4 mages have 3% crit and however much more DPS that would grant them, so even in your example, it's definitely worth taking the boomkin. I know you'll say "if Ignite falls off, that's a massive DPS loss," and I'd agree, but we're talking very slim chances here.

Now, I'll admit... I actually don't know exactly how Combustion works. Nowhere I am looking shows its cooldown, and I don't actually have a mage. I was under the impression it was 10 minutes. It lasts 3 crits. 10% more crit chance for 3 crits, then it's gone for (probably) the rest of the fight. Is that not how it works in this patch/on this server?

...

But go ahead... continue to pick out one tiny, insignificant point and continue to change the conversation from disc/holy DPS to something else to continue avoiding the fact you still have not proven a priest can do 700 DPS as disc/holy "easily" without sacrificing your raid's overall DPS (Yeah, I'm waiting on that, still). The whole point of me bringing up the raid comp was to discuss how going so far to boost the damage of a priest is ridiculous because of what you sacrifice to get what you want. 

How about 5 mages and one more ret swinging nightfall? You do not need a math wizard to do that 5 mages 1 boomkin yourself. Oh wait, it prolly is for you. Fisher, I am not saying that I am 100% right on all I say and if you had read my posts closer you would know that. And that is the main Problem why I and others are tired of discussing with you: You do not read close enough, you are just against the idea of smite priests in the raid. That is no base for a discussion. Also things you say sometimes make no sense. E.g. on the testing it on Kronos PTR example, you say it is not comparable and therefore not valid. That sounds like in your world scripting there is totally different and smite is much more powerful there. It is by the way exactly the same with the difference that you CAN stack judgements on Elysium Servers. So the only thing that changes is, that smite is potentially even better here on Elysium.

 

@pottu: it is hard to always stay calm and factual if there is one guy who throws in everything negative he can and ignores evidence/maths/any kind of valid argument/idea in order to be toxic to the ones who follow an idea he dies not like.

Edited February 5, 2017 by Ram

[Theloras 108]

1 hour ago, Deathlace said:

@Roxanne Flowers

Thank you for that link. That seems to indicate to me that it is very worth using a single gear slot somewhere with spell penetration to bypass that remaining 15 Holy resistance, just to avoid the potential for partial resists altogether.

Spell Penetration does NOT remove level based resistances - aka there are no means to remove it from the combat table.

[Deathlace 2]

10 minutes ago, Theloras said:

Spell Penetration does NOT remove level based resistances - aka there are no means to remove it from the combat table.

Thanks, that was my question. Never mind, then! 

[Fisher 5]

1 hour ago, Ram said:

That sounds like in your world scripting there is totally different and smite is much more powerful there.

My point is that things aren't always the same across servers. I even specifically stated that Kronos is not one of the garbage tier random servers, implying that it was likely not as buggy as some servers can be. However, the point still stands: test it here, or it means nothing -- or, at the very least, not as much.

2 hours ago, Ram said:

It is by the way exactly the same with the difference that you CAN stack judgements on Elysium Servers. So the only thing that changes is, that smite is potentially even better here on Elysium.

And therein lies my point. It is different, so what you find there does not matter here. Test it here, where everything is the same, not nearly the same. Who knows what else is different?

 

1 hour ago, Ram said:

You do not read close enough, you are just against the idea of smite priests in the raid. That is no base for a discussion.

So anyone who disagrees with you has no room in the discussion, or are you saying that I'm being bigoted against priests and refuse to acknowledge any of your points? Just from my quick reread of the entire thread, seems to me like you're the one who's been failing to read closely enough. In fact, several of your posts include something along the lines of "X thing you said is dumb, so I didn't bother to read the rest of it." Like so: 

On 1/30/2017 at 6:01 PM, Ram said:

It's just not worth talking to you any longer.

15 hours ago, Ram said:

I stopped reading after what you wrote about fire mages.

15 hours ago, Ram said:

I bet if I had read on, I would have found even more flaws in what you have written. But I have no time for that.

On 2/2/2017 at 4:37 PM, Ram said:

okay, now fisher starts trolling!

 

You say things like this...

On 1/18/2017 at 2:30 AM, Ram said:

It always makes me sad that the world is full of people like you who can do nothing better than shout loud and insult when they are out of arguments. Being man enough to admit your failure and learning from it would be a first step into adulthood and smartness.

... then later say things like this:

On 1/30/2017 at 4:50 AM, Ram said:

TLDR: If the whole mankind would have a mindset like you, man would still jump on trees and eat bananas, because nobody wanted to try something "new" and "risky".

On 1/30/2017 at 6:01 PM, Ram said:

So before talking some serious shit, better shut up, kid.

2 hours ago, Ram said:

You do not need a math wizard to do that 5 mages 1 boomkin yourself. Oh wait, it prolly is for you.

 

Not to mention, you've still not proven this claim: 

On 1/17/2017 at 11:14 AM, Ram said:

With a smite priest in dps gear, supported by a paladin, you can easily get 700dps whith only one judgement active.

Is the DPS provided in logs and screenshots impressive? Absolutely. I applaud the priest(s) and paladins involved. You managed to make disc/holy priests do... okay damage. In a couple of the fights, the burst is quite high, but the sustained DPS is not. Now if you wanted to argue "I meant at a brief moment during the opening cooldowns and burst a holy/disc priest can easily get 700 DPS," fine. Well played. I just assumed you meant sustained DPS throughout an entire fight.

Well, I've yet to see it.
 

2 hours ago, Ram said:

he can and ignores evidence/maths/any kind of valid argument,idea to in order to be toxic to the ones who follow an idea he dies not like.

• You've provided zero evidence to support your claim.
• I haven't ignored the math at all. In fact I've been arguing the math with you. When I win with the math, you instead resort to ad hominems.
• I've acknowledged your arguments. I have also debated/refuted most of them.
• I'm not being toxic. You are. Do another read through all your posts.
• You're right. I don't like the idea of priests throwing their time and gold in the trash by respeccing, gearing, and enchanting to play a spec that I think is not good enough to warrant bringing to a raid, but it's your character; it's your time; it's your gold. I'm going to try my best to convince you (and any priests reading) that the answer to "Is it viable to play disc/holy as DPS?" is "No."

[Ram 11]

Sigh... Take a flask, some world buffs and what every other caster does if he wants to make some serious dps and you will get 700 dps. The fact that the raidstats user shown hasn't got 700dps doesn't mean he's not capable of doing it. Will a mage without world buffs and hard consumable use get 700 dps (unless he got the ignite stack rolling). No. Usually only in very short fights. And that's the variance. Every fight is different. Ofc if there are some lucky crits involved and you get no misses, a mage who uses his trinkets wisely can do 1000+ dps in a 30s boss fight. Same goes for smite priests. What I don't get is why you fixate so much on the "SHOW ME 700 DPS!!!" like all that was written was wrong until somebody proves you the 700 dps raid log or screen.

And I am not being mean to you (btw ty for quoting all my "insults" out of context. Always looks very mean without the context around it), it's just that some of your arguments are from another world, no, they are from a whole different universe. You claim that every raid seems to need more than 3 warlocks, who are using 2 debuff slot themselves (imp. shadow bolt, cos - yes ONLY WARLOCKS BENEFIT FROM COS - and don't tell me "it reduces arcane resistance and is hand in AOE situations. like any warlock coe's 10 mobs to increase aoe or arcane missiles damage) and another 2-3 if they get a shadow priest. But at the same time you're totally against the idea of having smite priests who can ALSO benefit very much from from 4-5 debuffs. If you check the raid logs of the top guilds you see that they are very melee heavy and casters are inferior to the melees most of the time. Also what Killerduki wrote about having a tankadin supported by the 4-5 paladin judgements makes totally sense for fights where no taunt is needed, because the tankadin will do so much aggro that all melees can pull out more damage.

Do you know why I am not answering every single one of your "arguments"? Because imho you've failed to see the potential of a smite priest + ret combo and I think that you will continue to refuse arguments, unless someone explains you everything in total detail. And I just don't have the time for that. You could have went and read in the spreadsheet I've linked multiple times. You could have check the equations. But obviously you did not do that, because if you did, you would appreciate that smitepriest+paladins can actually be of very high value if the raid composition fits. I just don't have time, will and patience to explain self explaining contexts (like a dps spec with that you can also heal!!!) to somebody who always nags. It is clear that there are more common and maybe also better raid compositions than a smitepriest+ret one, but it is definately not true that smite priests are utter garbage.

Edited February 5, 2017 by Ram

[killerduki 54]

Quote

 

http://vanillagaming.org/forum/index.php?topic=15951.0

  Quote

How much Spell Penetration do you need
You will need to bring the monsters resistance all the way down to 0 if possible to deal your full damage.
A simple rule of thumb is that each 10 spell penetration adds 2.5% DPS increase on average.



Raid Bosses everywhere have: 145 resistance to Fire, Shadow, Frost, Arcane. 70 resistance to Nature, 15 resistance to Holy.
Note: Some may have slightly different resistances, and for example Ragnaros have extremely high Fire resistance. But the numbers above are accurate in 80% of the cases.

After Curse of the Elements and Curse of Shadows have been applied, you will need 70 spell penetration from gear to reach the cap in abomination wing. Mages need only 60 because they get 10 from the arcane talent: Arcane Subtlety.

 

The Values shown are from Wrath of the Lich King , values for Vanilla are similar but not the same.

Spell Penetration in Vanilla does not , neither in any other Expansion does not reduce the level based resistance.

/Kind regards Killerduki

[Cogfather 25]

Thread locked. Moving very off topic, non-civil discussion.