Fresh Server Pvp-Set

[prsina 17]

2 minutes ago, Taurior said:

Nost already did both, why not just go there then and raid there too if you want it to change that bad. The server may be fine, but that doens't take away from the fact that a MC geared warrior won't be able to beat a HWL geared warrior in a competative scene.

What you want is change one problem by increasing the reward of ranking without having to spend more time in the process while you do not want to fix the same problem that exists on the PVE side. I would call that a handout. Either you balance both, or balance nothing. 

An MC geared warrior should not be able to beat a HWL warrior, no matter the update or not.

[Taurior 2]

PVP gear shouldn't be OP compared to the PVE gear you can get. a MC geared warrior should beat a HWL warrior in PVE

[Bourbonpie 13]

3 minutes ago, Taurior said:

PVP gear shouldn't be OP compared to the PVE gear you can get. a MC geared warrior should beat a HWL warrior in PVE

No, he shouldn't. He raids MC 1.5-2 hours a week while the R14 put in crazy hours every day, week in and week out for months.

[Taurior 2]

3 minutes ago, Bourbonpie said:

No, he shouldn't. He raids MC 1.5-2 hours a week while the R14 put in crazy hours every day, week in and week out for months.

Then why do you want PVP gear to be upgraded at ZG patch? by that time a raider spent at least as much time on PVE as you need to spend in PVP(comparing hardcore PVP with hardcore PVE)

[Bourbonpie 13]

4 minutes ago, Taurior said:

Then why do you want PVP gear to be upgraded at ZG patch? by that time a raider spent at least as much time on PVE as you need to spend in PVP(comparing hardcore PVP with hardcore PVE)

Because it's the most fair time to do so, the PvP gear is not game-breaking by any means and only some pieces are slightly better than their PvE counterparts. And no, the time investment is not even close still even at that point.

[prsina 17]

MC is the 1st tier of raiding, claiming that gear should be better than HWL gear is just wrong in my opinion.

[(TheReal) Krom 7]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I remember, yes Rank 14 have advantage in high-end raids, to the detriment of PVE-players only.

But then what, less than 10% of players make it to R14, and if they PVP only are literally destroyed by full-decked PVE players for a loooong time.

 

Check your Dragonslayers privileges.

[prsina 17]

By the way, up to this date 132 players have reached r14 on nostalrius since its existence. Nost claimed to have had 150 000 active accounts, but let's make this 100 000 accounts on PvP server to round the number. That would mean only 0,132% of players have the OMFG OP WEOONZ DRAGONSLAYERZ CAN'T COMPETE NO UPDATE WEPONS HANDOUT. How many of those are warrs and rogues, shall we keep going? You are literally only whining about the weapons as you also agreed that gear should be updated come ZG? Only 132 out of 100 000 got the weapons in the whole nost lifetime, once again.

Edited January 3, 2017 by prsina
Added some info

[Taurior 2]

51 minutes ago, prsina said:

By the way, up to this date 132 players have reached r14 on nostalrius since its existence. Nost claimed to have had 150 000 active accounts, but let's make this 100 000 accounts on PvP server to round the number. That would mean only 0,132% of players have the OMFG OP WEOONZ DRAGONSLAYERZ CAN'T COMPETE NO UPDATE WEPONS HANDOUT. How many of those are warrs and rogues, shall we keep going? You are literally only whining about the weapons as you also agreed that gear should be updated come ZG? Only 132 out of 100 000 got the weapons in the whole nost lifetime, once again.

Nice thinking, let's count all level 1-59 accounts, how about we also count all bank alts, and while we're at it maybe you should also count all forum accounts with it LOL Stop trolling around.

2 hours ago, prsina said:

MC is the 1st tier of raiding, claiming that gear should be better than HWL gear is just wrong in my opinion.

The difference between MC and HWL weps is huge, even HWL and BWL weps. 

2 hours ago, (TheReal) Krom said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I remember, yes Rank 14 have advantage in high-end raids, to the detriment of PVE-players only.

But then what, less than 10% of players make it to R14, and if they PVP only are literally destroyed by full-decked PVE players for a loooong time.

 

Check your Dragonslayers privileges.

Stop being a pleb and read the full discussion before you talk shit. 

I myself am also going to rank( at least 12, and if my schedule allows me to, maybe higher) so please also GTFO with the dragonslayer bullshit, you don't know me, nor do you know my playstyle.

Anyway, this thread is starting to be a "oh you're against my point of view let me tell you what I think is best" and not a thread to discuss a solution. So far there's one good. 

So far there have been 2 solutions:

1:

"imho updated pvp gear(not weapon) with bwl 1.6 or zg 1.7, then update weapons with necropolis. "

" Then the best way would be to reverse it. Upgrade weapons later and set gear with BWL/ZG "

2: 

" What people are pushing for is to get the gear upgrade in the zg patch which is at least 10 months after the servers release. "

Option 1 tackles the gear problem at BWL/ZG as well as the weapon problem at AQ/Naxx

Option 2 tackles the gear problem at ZG

Focus more on the best solution instead of taking things personally and attacking eachother, I am just trying to come up with a solution that will make the most balanced change.

 

[prsina 17]

Ok, if there were 5k 60s out of 150k accounts that is 2%, still shit. I am not trolling, trying to put correct numbers out there. Even if you're a retard and claim there were only 1k 60s on the realm that is barely more than 10%. Try to calculaze it urself with a number you have in mind.

Edited January 3, 2017 by prsina

[ismeckye 7]

3 hours ago, Taurior said:

Nost already did both, why not just go there then and raid there too if you want it to change that bad. The server may be fine, but that doens't take away from the fact that a MC geared warrior won't be able to beat a HWL geared warrior in a competative scene.

What you want is change one problem by increasing the reward of ranking without having to spend more time in the process while you do not want to fix the same problem that exists on the PVE side. I would call that a handout. Either you balance both, or balance nothing. 

To be fair, people who want it changed on fresh server very well know that gear will become kinda bad/atleast not worth their time in april when people blast through AQ.

[prsina 17]

The weapons are not part of the problem as a very very small percentage will acquire them, nost has been around for how long and only 132 have them, out of which the number or warriors and rogues is 85.

Edited January 3, 2017 by prsina

[prsina 17]

1 minute ago, ismeckye said:

To be fair, people who want it changed on fresh server very well know that gear will become kinda bad/atleast not worth their time in april when people blast through AQ.

Also a good observation.

[void_echo 10]

1 hour ago, Taurior said:

Nice thinking, let's count all level 1-59 accounts, how about we also count all bank alts, and while we're at it maybe you should also count all forum accounts with it LOL Stop trolling around.

The difference between MC and HWL weps is huge, even HWL and BWL weps. 

Stop being a pleb and read the full discussion before you talk shit. 

I myself am also going to rank( at least 12, and if my schedule allows me to, maybe higher) so please also GTFO with the dragonslayer bullshit, you don't know me, nor do you know my playstyle.

Anyway, this thread is starting to be a "oh you're against my point of view let me tell you what I think is best" and not a thread to discuss a solution. So far there's one good. 

So far there have been 2 solutions:

1:

"imho updated pvp gear(not weapon) with bwl 1.6 or zg 1.7, then update weapons with necropolis. "

" Then the best way would be to reverse it. Upgrade weapons later and set gear with BWL/ZG "

2: 

" What people are pushing for is to get the gear upgrade in the zg patch which is at least 10 months after the servers release. "

Option 1 tackles the gear problem at BWL/ZG as well as the weapon problem at AQ/Naxx

Option 2 tackles the gear problem at ZG

Focus more on the best solution instead of taking things personally and attacking eachother, I am just trying to come up with a solution that will make the most balanced change.

 

3:

Make R13/14 gear have the same stats as Naxx gear so both PvPers and PvEers can compete in both PvP and PvE. This solves the problem forever.

Edited January 4, 2017 by void_echo

[Blib 14]

6 hours ago, Bourbonpie said:

Nostalrius already decided that these changes would not impact the game large enough to create any issues come 1.6 for upgraded Weapons and 1.7 for upgraded Gear. They did the research, they did the math. Keep in mind this was a server that strove to be Blizzlike in it's hayday and this is still a change they made cause they realized the good outweighs the bad.

"Did the math" Yea, having 4 blues from 2 different pvp sets as pre-raid bis for casters due to set bonus stacking was indeed well thought through and not gimmicky at all, same with shoulders + gloves from the blue set as legit bis for pve.

Not every decision made by the staff is based on logic.

Edited January 4, 2017 by Blib

[prsina 17]

19 minutes ago, Blib said:

"Did the math" Yea, having 4 blues from 2 different pvp sets as pre-raid bis for casters due to set bonus stacking was indeed well thought through and not gimmicky at all, same with shoulders + gloves from the blue set as legit bis for pve.

Not every decision made by the staff is based on logic.

This decision has actually benefited the community as it helped the gear become relevant for longer. If blue sets are a prob remove them from the game when you update(from the players also, i am sure it can be done)

[Taurior 2]

45 minutes ago, void_echo said:

3:

Make R13/14 gear have the same stats as Naxx gear so both PvPers and PvEers can compete in both PvP and PvE. This solves the problem forever.

I do not think the staff will consider chaning the stats of gear outside of the blizzlike stat changes, even if they did there would be a better way to balance things out. Changing the stats of gear will result the server moving away from the blizzlike vanilla feeling, which elysium staff is aiming for.

2 minutes ago, prsina said:

This decision has actually benefited the community as it helped the gear become relevant for longer. If blue sets are a prob remove them from the game when you update(from the players also, i am sure it can be done)

You're still only looking at it from your own perspective, try to look at it from the other side too. be openminded, instead of focusing on just how it benefits one side of the server.

For the PVP side of it it may be great, because that makes the gear become more relevant for a longer time, but seeing it from a PVE perspective it makes PVE gear less relevant as you can just PVP a bit to get the blue set. Every change that you make on the game has a negative side effect.

[prsina 17]

Except that PvE gear outshines pvp gear snd stays relevant throughout the whole game while PvP gear is mostly obsolete in PvE come AQ.

[Blib 14]

48 minutes ago, prsina said:

This decision has actually benefited the community as it helped the gear become relevant for longer. If blue sets are a prob remove them from the game when you update(from the players also, i am sure it can be done)

What is this even supposed to mean? Is it a good thing that gear stays relevant for longer? I'd rather see it replaced as we progress through the content.

Removing the old pvp set to avoid gimmicks is only half the solution, since some of the pieces from the new blue set would still be better than BWL and ZG gear. You tried making a point earlier about how R12-13 gear compared to MC gear, so I'd like to know if you honestly think it's fair if some R7-10 gear is better than BWL gear?

Regardless of how things turn out, someone is gonna end up feeling shafted, so I'm inclined to side with those who doesn't push funserver agendas tbh.

Edited January 4, 2017 by Blib

[Bourbonpie 13]

1 hour ago, Blib said:

"Did the math" Yea, having 4 blues from 2 different pvp sets as pre-raid bis for casters due to set bonus stacking was indeed well thought through and not gimmicky at all, same with shoulders + gloves from the blue set as legit bis for pve.

Not every decision made by the staff is based on logic.

None of the blue pieces are used in BWL though, they're all replaced by that point for Casters who are the only ones that wear them up until that point due to the 2 piece bonus.

What's wrong with blue sets anyway? Bloodvine is Blue and it lasts you for quite some time. You don't even use the epic PvP sets in PvE for casters, it's just the blue set that's used until you pick up the BWL pieces to replace them. Melee use maybe 1-2 pieces each in PvE. Everything they did was for the good of the server as a whole. 

[Taurior 2]

28 minutes ago, prsina said:

Except that PvE gear outshines pvp gear snd stays relevant throughout the whole game while PvP gear is mostly obsolete in PvE come AQ.

The way I see it is PVE gear as a whole is meant to stay relevant throughout the whole game, because it's the main activity in the game. PVP is a side activity meant so that people have things to do beside fininshing the storyline, but keep playing even when they finished certain raids. Later blizzard saw that PVP was a very popular concept and made it so that PVP gear and PVE gear are more split, this was done by adding resilience to gear pieces in TBC. This was not how it was in vanilla, PVE is supposed to be the main source of gear.

Like blib said, it's not a bad thing that gear is not relevant for a long time, you have to keep putting time in the game, even if you already spent the time for R14 in PVP. it's not supposed to last you for the biggest part of the game.

I completely agree with Blib.

Also keep in mind that there's probably a good reason why the elysium staff is still debating on how to battle the PVP gear update, if it didn't have any downsides they would've just made it the same as nost PVP.

[prsina 17]

Going by that logic, nost is a funserver, adding bgs this early in the game is funserver, starting with 1.12.1 talents and raiding MC with them is funserver. Taurior even you have claimed that gear could use an uodate earlier than naxx and your beef is with weapons if I am not wrong? I am sure the nost team did not make a decision because they felt like making nost a funserver seeing as it was the most blizzliek out there(i hate using the term blizzlike but let's roll with it) and they certainly weighed the pros and cons and have decided that the pros outweight the cons.

[Taurior 2]

2 minutes ago, prsina said:

Going by that logic, nost is a funserver, adding bgs this early in the game is funserver, starting with 1.12.1 talents and raiding MC with them is funserver. 

That's where the term blizzlike comes into play,  it's not a vanilla wow exact simulation.

5 minutes ago, prsina said:

Taurior even you have claimed that gear could use an uodate earlier than naxx and your beef is with weapons if I am not wrong?

You're partially correct, I don't mind gear being updated earlier, as long as it's possible to do without having much impact on the rest of the gameplay. I do not know the exact impact, neither do you, unless you researched what the best PVP/PVE items are prior to the update, and what the best PVP.PVE items are after the update, then you have to see how big the difference is, and see the exact impact that the changes you want implemented have. And yeah, if the PVP gear is being balanced to improve the gameplay, the same should be done for the PVP weapons in my opinion, even if the amount of people is smaller compared to the latter.

12 minutes ago, prsina said:

I am sure the nost team did not make a decision because they felt like making nost a funserver seeing as it was the most blizzliek out there(i hate using the term blizzlike but let's roll with it) and they certainly weighed the pros and cons and have decided that the pros outweight the cons.

That may be true for for the initial change on nost PVP, but like I said in my post, there is a reason why it's not directly being copied from nost PVP's timeline. I don't know all the flaws that it brings with it, but if I can trust BliB, one of the flaws is blue pvp gear set bonus stacking. Another flaw I can think of is some of the PVP gear outperforming the PVE gear, which is meant to be the main source of gear

[Blib 14]

23 minutes ago, Bourbonpie said:

None of the blue pieces are used in BWL though, they're all replaced by that point for Casters who are the only ones that wear them up until that point due to the 2 piece bonus.

What's wrong with blue sets anyway? Bloodvine is Blue and it lasts you for quite some time. You don't even use the epic PvP sets in PvE for casters, it's just the blue set that's used until you pick up the BWL pieces to replace them. Melee use maybe 1-2 pieces each in PvE. Everything they did was for the good of the server as a whole. 

Dude I'm telling you, shoulders + gloves is literally bis for locks and mages on the pvp server right now and 2x2 set bonus stacking is also very good untill you get your hands on bloodvine. Why are you shilling if you clearly haven't even played on the server? Shadow priests haven't even been brought up yet, it's even worse with them.

Implementing costum changes that forces people interested in PvE to push to at least R10 in order to be bis, just to cater to a handful of pvp nerds is ridiculous.

[Bourbonpie 13]

29 minutes ago, Blib said:

Dude I'm telling you, shoulders + gloves is literally bis for locks and mages on the pvp server right now and 2x2 set bonus stacking is also very good untill you get your hands on bloodvine. Why are you shilling if you clearly haven't even played on the server? Shadow priests haven't even been brought up yet, it's even worse with them.

Implementing costum changes that forces people interested in PvE to push to at least R10 in order to be bis, just to cater to a handful of pvp nerds is ridiculous.

It's not though cause I've played on Nostalrius PvP and Mantle of the Blackwing Cabal + Ebony Flame Gloves is better than 2 piece blue for Warlocks, Cabal + Netherwind Gloves is about equal for Mages. Bloodvine is Legs/Chest/Boots so idk what you're talking about there. You act like even getting to r10 is hard...it's not, btw.