Fresh Server Pvp-Set

[void_echo 10]

10 minutes ago, Taurior said:

You're yet again making no sense.

Meanwhile in your previous post:

1 hour ago, Taurior said:

I don't see how it's worse for PVPers, End-game PVE is better

 

 

[Taurior 2]

I still don't follow, must be the language gap

I admited that in the End-game(naxx patch) you will have to raid in order to get the best item pieces for PVP. You said earlier that you basically want to get the BiS end-game pvp gear handed to you:

"And forcing hardcore PvP players (even normal PvPers) to do raid Naxx to be able to get the best gear for PvP is better because...?"

(You don't want to raid end-game , instead you just want to rank to rank 14 at the start and get the best gear possible in game for pvp for the whole duration of vanilla), this is as close to the definition of a hand-out as you can probably get.

I never stated that I want anything handed out(I'm against it) , and If you think I did I'd love to see the quote.

What I said after you complained that it's not fair to have PVPers work for their gear(by playing PVE, a couple of hours a week) when they already spend time on it more than a year before naxx:

1 hour ago, Taurior said:

I don't see how it's worse for PVPers, End-game PVE is better yeah, but what do you expect? it's a mainly PVE focused game, with PVP as a side activity, ofc they won't give people who did PVP at the start of the expention the best gear possible. that would ruin the main aspect of the game: PVE.

I'd love to know what part of that sentence says that I am looking for a hand-out

[Procto 9]

Except u don't rly get the r13 or 14 items ''handed'' the time spent getting that rank.. well, in most cases in comparison to raid time favors the pvper, also pretty much every damn ranker raids just as much as the hardcore raider, at least by Nostalrius statistics.

imho updated pvp gear(not weapon) with bwl 1.6 or zg 1.7, then update weapons with necropolis.

kinda same as nost pvp

[Adeline 2]

4 hours ago, Taurior said:

(You don't want to raid end-game , instead you just want to rank to rank 14 at the start and get the best gear possible in game for pvp for the whole duration of vanilla), this is as close to the definition of a hand-out as you can probably get

People aren't even arguing to get the gear upgraded from the get-go though. At least that's not the point of view held by the PvP community at large. What people are pushing for is to get the gear upgrade in the zg patch which is at least 10 months after the servers release.

[Bourbonpie 13]

1 hour ago, Adeline said:

People aren't even arguing to get the gear upgraded from the get-go though. At least that's not the point of view held by the PvP community at large. What people are pushing for is to get the gear upgrade in the zg patch which is at least 10 months after the servers release.

^

This is the best solution. Rankers will still have use for their R12/13 Gear at this point & it won't be any stronger than currently available PvE Gear. 

[Taurior 2]

4 hours ago, Adeline said:

People aren't even arguing to get the gear upgraded from the get-go though. At least that's not the point of view held by the PvP community at large. What people are pushing for is to get the gear upgrade in the zg patch which is at least 10 months after the servers release.

Not the majority, correct. but he was, hence why I said he wants it.

The problem I have with the suggestion is: Why upgrade the PVP gear earlier to make it more viable without changing the weapon upgrade date?

You guys want a partial balance in favour of yourself, but if you're going to balance one thing, you have to also balance the other thing. Currently PVE weapons are far worse than the PVP weapons(for rogues/war for sure) it's the exact same problem:

PVE gear is superiour in PVP so you want the gear to be upgraded earlier so PVP gear is superiour/viable in PVP again.

same goes for the weps:

PVP weps are superiour in PVE, so the weps should be upgraded later so PVE gear is equal/viable in PVE again.

PVP gear/weps are not accessible for all players due to the large amount of time it costs. While everyone that can take the time to farm the PVP gear/weps also has time to raid casually 4 hours a week, so although it's not ideal, having PVP weps being so much better than any PVE wep for at least 13 months(assuming you reach R14 within the first +- 7 months and you get your weapon upgrades in the first week of naxx) is a far bigger problem than PVP gear not being better than PVE gear (that is accessible for almost everyone).

And what void_echo said was basically that he wants to PVP to rank 14 once and then have the best gear possible in game

 

I'm all for upgrading the gear earlier, but then you also have to delay the wep upgrade(best would probably be  patch 1.10, 3 months after AQ)

[Taurior 2]

6 minutes ago, snawfu said:

PVE gear does get updated from the old values (1.4) to the new ones in BWL patch or whatever.

True, but that has nothing to do with anything I said, or with this topic.

 

[ismeckye 7]

1 hour ago, Taurior said:

Not the majority, correct. but he was, hence why I said he wants it.

The problem I have with the suggestion is: Why upgrade the PVP gear earlier to make it more viable without changing the weapon upgrade date?

You guys want a partial balance in favour of yourself, but if you're going to balance one thing, you have to also balance the other thing. Currently PVE weapons are far worse than the PVP weapons(for rogues/war for sure) it's the exact same problem:

PVE gear is superiour in PVP so you want the gear to be upgraded earlier so PVP gear is superiour/viable in PVP again.

same goes for the weps:

PVP weps are superiour in PVE, so the weps should be upgraded later so PVE gear is equal/viable in PVE again.

PVP gear/weps are not accessible for all players due to the large amount of time it costs. While everyone that can take the time to farm the PVP gear/weps also has time to raid casually 4 hours a week, so although it's not ideal, having PVP weps being so much better than any PVE wep for at least 13 months(assuming you reach R14 within the first +- 7 months and you get your weapon upgrades in the first week of naxx) is a far bigger problem than PVP gear not being better than PVE gear (that is accessible for almost everyone).

And what void_echo said was basically that he wants to PVP to rank 14 once and then have the best gear possible in game

 

I'm all for upgrading the gear earlier, but then you also have to delay the wep upgrade(best would probably be  patch 1.10, 3 months after AQ)

Then the best way would be to reverse it. Upgrade weapons later and set gear with BWL/ZG. Most caster classes only rank because of the set; weapons are mostly better from PvE or atleast not much worse so: Chromaggus dagger, nef mace, nef staff. PvP set gets replaced failry quickly or isnt BiS from the start at all. Whereas one hand weps are OP. So by allowing to get set gear be viable in PvP earlier it makes the ranking worthwhile while rogues and warrs get awesome weps from PvE anyways fairly quickly.
Warr; BRE/Spinal Reaper/ZinRok/TuF/Ashkandi
Rogue: Viskag/CTS/Perditions Blade.

Edited January 3, 2017 by ismeckye

[Lawinn 9]

On 12/31/2016 at 3:56 PM, Chrys said:

I see absolutely no reason to rank higher (if even that) than rank11 as a priest. 

I would replace r13 gear in ZG-patch anyway. 

PVP-items are suppose to show dominance and e-peen-value because of all the hours you put in to get it. 

+1 Upvote

[Taurior 2]

1 hour ago, ismeckye said:

Then the best way would be to reverse it. Upgrade weapons later and set gear with BWL/ZG. Most caster classes only rank because of the set; weapons are mostly better from PvE or atleast not much worse so: Chromaggus dagger, nef mace, nef staff. PvP set gets replaced failry quickly or isnt BiS from the start at all. Whereas one hand weps are OP. So by allowing to get set gear be viable in PvP earlier it makes the ranking worthwhile while rogues and warrs get awesome weps from PvE anyways fairly quickly.
Warr; BRE/Spinal Reaper/ZinRok/TuF/Ashkandi
Rogue: Viskag/CTS/Perditions Blade.

That would probably the best way indeed, the weps would be pretty much on-par with PVE weps that way:

Spoiler

 

PVP weps:

2x 115-173 dmg

2% crit

24 AP

12 stam

CTS+maladath:

106-192dmg // 86-162 dmg

+-0.7% crit

+4 wep skill

+28 AP

+7 stam

difference:

+ 9 min dmg, -19 max dmg

1.3% crit

-4 AP

+5 stam

 

I believe for PVP the R14 weps will be a tad better than the PVE weps, resulting in no imbalanced weapons ( not an expert, so correct me if I'm wrong) 

Updating the weapons at 1.9 will probably be the best time, the PVP weps will be a tad better than the AQ weapons, which shoulnd't make for a big loss of competition

Gear-wise it'll take some time to check when the best time would be, if I can believe most people here, that would be to update the PVP gear at the 1.7(ZG) patch.

[Taurior 2]

3 minutes ago, snawfu said:

Why would a R14 weapon with much lower top end damage be better than a CTS? Even the updated Vis'kag is better at 187 top end.

I'll take CTS+Core hound tooth over the gimp R14 weapons any day with 1/20th of the effort put into acquiring the weapons.

The top-end dmg is lower, but the low end dmg is higher, plus you get 1.3% more crit and 5 stamina. the difference in average dmg is still only 5 dmg, I believe 1.3% crit and 5 stamina is about equal as the max dmg you lose, again I'm not an expert on PVP so I can be wrong.

It's hard to balance it without changing the stats of certain items. I still believe it would be the best solution to the problem. I'd love to hear other solutions that tackle this problem that benefits the gameplay without altering a lot.

[prsina 17]

Even the one that were contra are now agreeing that the gear update should be either BWL/ZG patch. 5k views and 4 pages of posts agreeing upon the main thing, the gear needs to be updated earlier. Devs pl0x no ruSSki ignoramUS no destroy Srver

[prsina 17]

And lets be fucking real, my hopes are unfortunately not high. Kudos to Elysium for providing us with the server and platform for everything, but if it weren't for nost, Elysium would still be a stock mangos fuckup server with 300 ppl on it. Do the right decision for fuck sakes.

Edited January 3, 2017 by prsina

[Taurior 2]

16 minutes ago, prsina said:

Even the one that were contra are now agreeing that the gear update should be either BWL/ZG patch. 5k views and 4 pages of posts agreeing upon the main thing, the gear needs to be updated earlier. Devs pl0x no ruSSki ignoramUS no destroy Srver

I agree that it is part of a solution to make PVP and PVE more balanced, but just part of the solution, you have to make changes to the weapons too, otherwise PVP items will dominate in PVE, like I said before, pieces like they legs will be used until titanic legs, shoulders will be upgraded with tier 2.5, so that gear will stay good for a long time,

only upgrading gear would mean for warriors that you get 3 PVP items that will only be replaced after the release of Naxx, 2 of which you already use from BWL release(4 if you count shoulders too, as the only change you get from AQ shoulders is 2 str) this is a big NO. I expect that warrior is not the only class that will have PVP gear being better in PVE than PVE gear itself.

I'm AGAINST the original suggestion, it would imbalance the game too much. What you said about everyone that was against it is now for the suggestion is far from correct. Don't try to manipulate people in doing what you want to happen, the media does that enough already :) 

[prsina 17]

13 minutes ago, Taurior said:

I agree that it is part of a solution to make PVP and PVE more balanced, but just part of the solution, you have to make changes to the weapons too, otherwise PVP items will dominate in PVE, like I said before, pieces like they legs will be used until titanic legs, shoulders will be upgraded with tier 2.5, so that gear will stay good for a long time,

only upgrading gear would mean for warriors that you get 3 PVP items that will only be replaced after the release of Naxx, 2 of which you already use from BWL release(4 if you count shoulders too, as the only change you get from AQ shoulders is 2 str) this is a big NO. I expect that warrior is not the only class that will have PVP gear being better in PVE than PVE gear itself.

I'm AGAINST the original suggestion, it would imbalance the game too much. What you said about everyone that was against it is now for the suggestion is far from correct. Don't try to manipulate people in doing what you want to happen, the media does that enough already :) 

Read closely, I said you agreed on the main thing which is the gear update, I did not mention the weapons as the weapons are a topic I will not get into. You are basically the only 1 that had a normal contra argument, the rest being mostly trolls.

[Ohhgee 3]

On 12/31/2016 at 1:20 PM, tribe said:

Everyone with half a brain completely agrees with the fact that updating pvp gear in Naxx is the worst outcome possible. I'm gonna make a big thread about this if I can which can hopefully generate some traction.

r o f l

[Taurior 2]

26 minutes ago, prsina said:

Read closely, I said you agreed on the main thing which is the gear update, I did not mention the weapons as the weapons are a topic I will not get into. 

Yeah, but later on you continue to say that the gear should be updated earlier, I read that as, just upgrade the gear and leave the rest alone.(might not how you meant it, (if so, my bad) but that's how I read it)

26 minutes ago, prsina said:

You are basically the only 1 that had a normal contra argument, the rest being mostly trolls.

The same can be said about the people who agree on it, not that they're mostly trolls, but they don't give any solid arguments/research on why it would benefit the server more. some examples:

"Everyone with half a brain completely agrees with the fact that updating pvp gear in Naxx is the worst outcome possible. I'm gonna make a big thread about this if I can which can hopefully generate some traction."

"I was so happy to reroll on the fresh because I wanted to rank on it. If it stays like, I'll probably not reroll at all.

"I don't want to exaggerate, but it would literally destroy the PvP scene. "

There are more examples, most of the posts in this whole topic is people saying they're for/against it without knowing how it affects the server, only biased opinions are thrown out there. there's also people who try to misinform ppl to bend them to their side by supplying half information.

How I see it: If you want Elysium to make a change, you have to supply them with the information they need to make a good unbiased decision about the matter in question. In this case it would mean for example: comparisons of PVP and PVE gear in their respective forms, before and after the change. a list that shows how the changes impact the bis PVE gear and bis PVP gear( people claim PVE gear will be a lot better than PVP gear in PVP, show proof, not just words)

You basically need to analyse what the impact of the change is on other aspects of the game. this is not just a small change you're asking for, it's something that has impact on the whole game, PVP and PVE.

 

EDIT: copy-paste doens't show clearly, added quotation marks

Edited January 3, 2017 by Taurior

[Bourbonpie 13]

15 minutes ago, Taurior said:

Yeah, but later on you continue to say that the gear should be updated earlier, I read that as, just upgrade the gear and leave the rest alone.(might not how you meant it, (if so, my bad) but that's how I read it)

The same can be said about the people who agree on it, not that they're mostly trolls, but they don't give any solid arguments/research on why it would benefit the server more. some examples:

"Everyone with half a brain completely agrees with the fact that updating pvp gear in Naxx is the worst outcome possible. I'm gonna make a big thread about this if I can which can hopefully generate some traction."

"I was so happy to reroll on the fresh because I wanted to rank on it. If it stays like, I'll probably not reroll at all.

"I don't want to exaggerate, but it would literally destroy the PvP scene. "

There are more examples, most of the posts in this whole topic is people saying they're for/against it without knowing how it affects the server, only biased opinions are thrown out there. there's also people who try to misinform ppl to bend them to their side by supplying half information.

How I see it: If you want Elysium to make a change, you have to supply them with the information they need to make a good unbiased decision about the matter in question. In this case it would mean for example: comparisons of PVP and PVE gear in their respective forms, before and after the change. a list that shows how the changes impact the bis PVE gear and bis PVP gear( people claim PVE gear will be a lot better than PVP gear in PVP, show proof, not just words)

You basically need to analyse what the impact of the change is on other aspects of the game. this is not just a small change you're asking for, it's something that has impact on the whole game, PVP and PVE.

 

EDIT: copy-paste doens't show clearly, added quotation marks

Nostalrius already decided that these changes would not impact the game large enough to create any issues come 1.6 for upgraded Weapons and 1.7 for upgraded Gear. They did the research, they did the math. Keep in mind this was a server that strove to be Blizzlike in it's hayday and this is still a change they made cause they realized the good outweighs the bad.

[Taurior 2]

1 minute ago, Bourbonpie said:

Nostalrius already decided that these changes would not impact the game large enough to create any issues come 1.6 for upgraded Weapons and 1.7 for upgraded Gear. They did the research, they did the math. Keep in mind this was a server that strove to be Blizzlike in it's hayday and this is still a change they made cause they realized the good outweighs the bad.

If you ask me, having 3 PVP items be BiS until naxx at BWL patch, is already something that's not right. anything that adds another piece to that collection is in my opinion a step in the wrong direction. What's the point of competative PVE if you have to no-life PVP for multiple weeks in order to be a part of that.

[Bourbonpie 13]

8 minutes ago, Taurior said:

If you ask me, having 3 PVP items be BiS until naxx at BWL patch, is already something that's not right. anything that adds another piece to that collection is in my opinion a step in the wrong direction. What's the point of competative PVE if you have to no-life PVP for multiple weeks in order to be a part of that.

Players who don't rank to 14 will still be able to compete in PvE, it's just going to take more effort & skill on their end. 3 PvP items BiS? Which class? Warriors use two max considering Shoulders will be replaced in AQ40.

[Taurior 2]

2x Weapons, legs. PVE Shoulders will only add 2 str, you can count those aswell making it 4 items. as you will have those shoulders before anyone else at AQ release, it will take at least a couple of weeks before a PVE player can get those shoulders.

And GL beating a warrior that uses HWL weapons when you are using vis'kag and brutality blade if you happen to be lucky. That's not gonna happen unless the player that uses the HWL weapons is a bad PVE player, which is unlikely in a competative setting. If you wish I can show the the difference it makes in stats.

[Bourbonpie 13]

13 minutes ago, Taurior said:

2x Weapons, legs. PVE Shoulders will only add 2 str, you can count those aswell making it 4 items. as you will have those shoulders before anyone else at AQ release, it will take at least a couple of weeks before a PVE player can get those shoulders.

And GL beating a warrior that uses HWL weapons when you are using vis'kag and brutality blade if you happen to be lucky. That's not gonna happen unless the player that uses the HWL weapons is a bad PVE player, which is unlikely in a competative setting. If you wish I can show the the difference it makes in stats.

Why are you even bringing the Weapons up in this thread? They're already being upgraded in 1.6, so it doesn't matter. So they use Legs till Titanic and Shoulders till AQ40 gear-wise, that's it.

Part of the reason people love Vanilla is the more time & effort you put into the game, the more rewards you reap from it. Why should someone who spends months playing absurd hours to achieve R14 not get something better than anyone who raids BWL 2 hours a week can get? If you don't like that, go back to retail.

[Taurior 2]

1 minute ago, Bourbonpie said:

Why are you even bringing the Weapons up in this thread? They're already being upgraded in 1.6, so it doesn't matter. So they use Legs till Titanic and Shoulders till AQ40 gear-wise, that's it.

Part of the reason people love Vanilla is the more time & effort you put into the game, the more rewards you reap from it. Why should someone who spends months playing absurd hours to achieve R14 not get something better than anyone who raids BWL 2 hours a week can get? If you don't like that, go back to retail.

And there we go with the tunnelvision madness. how about you go back to nost PVP if you want to have the update early lol, you're the one that wants to change things up, not me. seems like the only thing people know nowadays is go to retail or gtfo. I supply information and arguments.

What you want is to change something to the benefit of a small population of people. I suggest that if you're going to change the PVP gear to balance gear, you also have to change the PVP weps to balance weps. What they're(not you, you're asking for a handout not gonna bother with that) asking for is that the PVP gear is balanced so that it's not completely useless for them after a certain time has passed. this is fine, but you can't change on thing and leave the other thing unchanged.

Be openminded and provide normal arguments, if you're going to tunnelvision and talk trash you might as well leave this thread.

[Bourbonpie 13]

1 minute ago, Taurior said:

And there we go with the tunnelvision madness. how about you go back to nost PVP if you want to have the update early lol, you're the one that wants to change things up, not me. seems like the only thing people know nowadays is go to retail or gtfo. I supply information and arguments.

What you want is to change something to the benefit of a small population of people. I suggest that if you're going to change the PVP gear to balance gear, you also have to change the PVP weps to balance weps. What they're(not you, you're asking for a handout not gonna bother with that) asking for is that the PVP gear is balanced so that it's not completely useless for them after a certain time has passed. this is fine, but you can't change on thing and leave the other thing unchanged.

Be openminded and provide normal arguments, if you're going to tunnelvision and talk trash you might as well leave this thread.

But Nost did both and look! The server is just fine, and people who didn't rank still do just fine in PvE! P.S. calling anything past R10 "Handouts" is absurd.

[Taurior 2]

Nost already did both, why not just go there then and raid there too if you want it to change that bad. The server may be fine, but that doens't take away from the fact that a MC geared warrior won't be able to beat a HWL geared warrior in a competative scene.

What you want is change one problem by increasing the reward of ranking without having to spend more time in the process while you do not want to fix the same problem that exists on the PVE side. I would call that a handout. Either you balance both, or balance nothing.