Horde Mage Beerwizzard ninjas Stockade Pauldrons

[Justme 9]

I'm sorry but I do not wish to party with players that do not follow my agreed upon lootrules. You'll have to find yourself another hunter to replace me.

[Rapteg 0]

3 часа назад, Justme сказал:

I'm sorry but I do not wish to party with players that do not follow my agreed upon lootrules. You'll have to find yourself another hunter to replace me.

It would be way more effective if you were a tank. Because there is always another hunter to replace you, sorry to say that.

[Justme 9]

If everyone greeds on BOE then you can't have people accidently needing on BOPs (by thinking they're boe)

Edited February 24, 2017 by Justme

[Coop 3]

On 2/23/2017 at 10:04 AM, Oakenlix said:

I am continuously challenging people to prove "tradable item = money = same need for everyone" point to be wrong simply because it would make arguing a lot easier. You would come up with some arguments, I'll then try to prove it wrong and we go from there. I do, however, believe, that one can't argue against this point because it's true, and no one yet has proven it wrong.

Note that no one in this thread has said that everyone should roll "Need" on BoPs too, that's because it makes no sense. Everyone agrees that if someone needs an item more than the rest group members, then he should get it. This is not the case with BoEs, everyone needs it equally, therefore everyone rolls need. But with BoP everyone doesn't need it equally, which is again, something everyone agrees on. You can't get the same value from BoP that you can't equip than someone who can. So hope we're clear on that.

That's because N/G is a restrictive system that says you shouldn't roll Need on BoEs you can't equip. Well what if I do? Others are screwed. N/G relies on trust, but it's difficult to rely on people in your pug group. Everyone rolling Need on BoEs isn't restrictive, you don't have to trust each other and it makes things much easier. 

 

But thats the thing, just because a BoE can be traded for gold doesn't mean that everyone requires it equally. If I'm a BiS rogue doing a dungeon run with a freshly dinged warrior and Stockade Pauldrons drop, who needs that item more? They can sell the item for the same amount, but the rogue will simply use this to add to his stockpile of gold or for something that doesn't directly increase the power of his character, whereas the warrior can equip the item and vastly increase his stats and his opportunity to get into a raiding guild or whatever. How can you argue that these two would both need the item just as much as each other? 

The only basis your argument stands on is 'why should I pass on this extra chunk of gold for a stranger' which I don't agree with but can understand, but then just admit that you are doing it because you're essentially being greedy and you're not bothered about the needs of other people in your pug. 

Your last point is a non-argument, unless you're using ML you're relying on the trust of people when a BoP drops as well. 

Edited February 24, 2017 by Coop

[Oakenlix 79]

39 minutes ago, Coop said:

But thats the thing, just because a BoE can be traded for gold doesn't mean that everyone requires it equally. If I'm a BiS rogue doing a dungeon run with a freshly dinged warrior and Stockade Pauldrons drop, who needs that item more? They can sell the item for the same amount, but the rogue will simply use this to add to his stockpile of gold or for something that doesn't directly increase the power of his character, whereas the warrior can equip the item and vastly increase his stats and his opportunity to get into a raiding guild or whatever. How can you argue that these two would both need the item just as much as each other?  

You're basically saying poor people should earn more gold than rich ones. While I understand where its coming from, it's highly speculative. It doesn't work like that, even IRL, and for good reasons. One if them being that you can't tell how rich a player really is, because it could be an alt or whatever. Secondly, they are all in a group doing the same thing, basically earning some valuables. If a rich player didn't need that gold, he wouldn't be doing it in the first place, so dismissing his need as something unimportant isn't correct. Thirdly and finally, what about other scenario where a BoE drop is a gear upgrade for the rich player, when there are poor ones who can't equip it? Or what if there are two players for whom the dropped item is a gear upgrade, do you give it to the poorest one? Whether its the "Need on all BoEs" or the so called "Need before greed" system, it doesn't change the value distibution between poor and rich people not by one bit, so its an irrelevant argument. And also I think you realize that rolling based on investigating each player's wealth would be a mess.

49 minutes ago, Coop said:

The only basis your argument stands on is 'why should I pass on this extra chunk of gold for a stranger' which I don't agree with but can understand, but then just admit that you are doing it because you're essentially being greedy and you're not bothered about the needs of other people in your pug. 

Doing what? Saying that people have the right to roll Need on BoEs and it would be better if everyone did it? How exactly does that make me greedy, personally? Do I get paid for that by a secret "BoE ninjas" community?

The attempts to derail this discussion into judging personalities rather than principles are quite pathetic, frankly.

57 minutes ago, Coop said:

Your last point is a non-argument, unless you're using ML you're relying on the trust of people when a BoP drops as well. 

Not really, because people don't have nearly as much incentive to roll Need on BoPs only to vendor them for a small amount of gold. It's very rare. You don't join a group worrying and expecting that people might take your BoP, as opposed to BoE.

[Coop 3]

33 minutes ago, Oakenlix said:

You're basically saying poor people should earn more gold than rich ones. While I understand where its coming from, it's highly speculative. It doesn't work like that, even IRL, and for good reasons. One if them being that you can't tell how rich a player really is, because it could be an alt or whatever. Secondly, they are all in a group doing the same thing, basically earning some valuables. If a rich player didn't need that gold, he wouldn't be doing it in the first place, so dismissing his need as something unimportant isn't correct. Thirdly and finally, what about other scenario where a BoE drop is a gear upgrade for the rich player, when there are poor ones who can't equip it? Or what if there are two players for whom the dropped item is a gear upgrade, do you give it to the poorest one? Whether its the "Need on all BoEs" or the so called "Need before greed" system, it doesn't change the value distibution between poor and rich people not by one bit, so its an irrelevant argument. And also I think you realize that rolling based on investigating each player's wealth would be a mess.

 

That's why I think the system of MS > OS > Greed/DE is a much simpler way of doing things. It is your logic that throws up all of these variables because you're equating gold with actual pieces of gear. 

'Everyone agrees that if someone needs an item more than the rest group members, then he should get it.' - That was your statement. If that is what you truly believe then a blanket rule of everyone rolling need on BoE's is not consistent with that. 

Quote

Doing what? Saying that people have the right to roll Need on BoEs and it would be better if everyone did it? How exactly does that make me greedy, personally? Do I get paid for that by a secret "BoE ninjas" community?

I'm saying if you roll on a BoE under the premise that you're just there with strangers, I wasn't saying you personally are greedy. Although given your position in these threads, I'm assuming you would roll need on a BoE you couldn't use right? 

[Oakenlix 79]

3 hours ago, Coop said:

That's why I think the system of MS > OS > Greed/DE is a much simpler way of doing things. It is your logic that throws up all of these variables because you're equating gold with actual pieces of gear. 

Why shouldn't I, if they are easily converted to each other?

If your system was simpler, we wouldn't have all these threads about people "ninjaing" BoEs.

Everyone rolling Need on BoE is simpler because you either win the roll or you don't, and that's it. Where do you see any complication here?

3 hours ago, Coop said:

'Everyone agrees that if someone needs an item more than the rest group members, then he should get it.' - That was your statement. If that is what you truly believe then a blanket rule of everyone rolling need on BoE's is not consistent with that. 

And neither is your "MS > OS < Greed/DE" system, as I've shown above, so what's the point of bringing it up? Its irrelevant in the discussion about which system is better, since neither of them can achieve it fully. 

3 hours ago, Coop said:

I'm saying if you roll on a BoE under the premise that you're just there with strangers, I wasn't saying you personally are greedy. Although given your position in these threads, I'm assuming you would roll need on a BoE you couldn't use right? 

There was no "if" there, you were just trying to imply that my position somehow makes me a greedy person, which was neither logical nor fair, but whatever.

The way I roll on dropped items depends on the loot rules of the group I'm in, but the default is Need on BoEs.

Edited February 24, 2017 by Oakenlix

[Yselea 3]

I would never take an item to sell if someone in the party actually needed it.

But I guess I'm not a greedy douche.

[Oakenlix 79]

17 minutes ago, Yselea said:

I would never take an item to sell if someone in the party actually needed it.

But I guess I'm not a greedy douche.

Care to climb off your high white horse and define the "actual need"?

[Yselea 3]

Pipe it, greedy cunt.

[Justme 9]

1 hour ago, Oakenlix said:

Care to climb off your high white horse and define the "actual need"?

direct equipment improvement

[Oakenlix 79]

5 minutes ago, Justme said:

direct equipment improvement

What does it matter if its direct or indirect? 

[Justme 9]

2 minutes ago, Oakenlix said:

What does it matter if its direct or indirect? 

Because everything can be an indirect gear improvement. The greed button is pointless if you can need on whatever provides you an indirect upgrade.

[Yselea 3]

8 minutes ago, Justme said:

Because everything can be an indirect gear improvement. The greed button is pointless if you can need on whatever provides you an indirect upgrade.

This guy gets it.

[Oakenlix 79]

10 minutes ago, Justme said:

Because everything can be an indirect gear improvement. The greed button is pointless if you can need on whatever provides you an indirect upgrade.

Still retarded I see. Once again, what difference does it make if the gear improvement is direct or indirect? Answer the question, lol. 

[Justme 9]

39 minutes ago, Oakenlix said:

Still retarded I see. Once again, what difference does it make if the gear improvement is direct or indirect? Answer the question, lol. 

Back to personal insulting again. ohwell.

Just ask yourself this: An item dropped. Are you gonna need or greed on it?

[Oakenlix 79]

44 minutes ago, Justme said:

Just ask yourself this: An item dropped. Are you gonna need or greed on it?

I'm not in a group now, so there's no rolling.

A stupid answer for your stupid question, enjoy it.

[Rapteg 0]

10 часов назад, Justme сказал:

direct equipment improvement

So, if an item has more stats you are obliged to roll on it? Don't you see obvious flaws in this system? Like, people are already salty about fury warriors taking all agility gear, and it gets ridiculous to the point of "hey, i'm a warrior tank but i roll on fury gear", which translates into "good luck anyone who uses agility OR strength, because i'm going to roll on ALL OF IT". And this i'm talking about BoP items, which are way less rare and less valuable than BoE items (because, you know, an item that gives you +2 int +8 stam compared to your current weapon, or an item that is traded for almost any other BoE item to replace your "weakest link" in equipment)

[Nosleep 4]

just because an item has a high gold value when sold, doesnt mean you need it over someone for whom its an upgrade.

 

By that logic.. you could also need BOP gear with high vendor price because it will add to your pile of gold to eventually buy an item from AH.

if you think that because the item is BOE then all deserve its value equally then you are saying gold is a need.

But you take it from them and claim you have the right just because you can sell it.. weather or not it will sell for enough gold to buy the item you need from AH... you just see gold and think you need that gold.

also, there are many ways to farm gold, you dont have to take items ppl need...  greed is gold and need is upgrade. its that simple. potential value is not relevant.

and another point that spawn from this stupid logic... what if the BOE item that drops is NOT on AH atm?  is it still ok to take it from them just because you say they can buy it from AH? what if they cant afford to buy it? what if its not there? did u check AH b4 needing it? would that even matter to your flawed logic?

also, by that logic, it wouldnt be ok for someone to need the BOE unless they could deffo get a BOE upgrade from AH after selling it?  if some player in full BiS is there.. they are not allowed to need the BOE because they cant buy an item from AH??  crazy stupid logic guys.

- explained below is the BS direct upgrade Vs indirect upgrade argument... and a counter to anyone who claims that needing BOE's for gold is different to needing BOP's for gold.

- example: if the item you want from AH cost 200g .. and a BOE drops worth 120g .. if you need it.. you still cant buy the item.. you need 80 more gold..... but you would still need it because it can be converted into gold. .. add it to your pile of gold.. .. then need the next BOE that drops even if its an upgrade for someone, might only be worth 50g .. so u need 1 more BOE and then eventually buy an item... that is needing for gold. 

and that example of needing 3x BOE items to get enough gold for the BOE u say u need from AH is exactly the same as needing 15 BOP items to get the item u need from AH.

needing BOE for gold is the same as needing BOP's for gold .. there is nothing wrong with it at all.. UNLESS its an upgrade for someone.

gold = greed and item upgrades = need.

 

every item can be converted into gold.. some small amounts and some large amounts.. the value of the item is not what makes the difference, unless you used completely flawed logic.. so by that reasoning.. you guys would need anything at all because everything will either buy you an item or add to your pile to eventually buy an item (indirect upgrade?)

direct upgrade and indirect upgrade seems to be a subjective thing. I dont see a difference other than saying direct would be a 1 step process and indirect would take more than 1 step. but thats just my subjective interpretation. But i dont think it would matter how you define the difference when using it as an argument for needing for gold, it would still be flawed.

 

if you need an item just because of its gold value.. you are needing for gold.. thats not need.. if you need items that are upgrades for others, just so u can sell it (regardless of where you sell it or for how much and regardless if it is worth the same, less or more than the item you may or may not need from AH yourself)  then you are a ninja. and BS flawed logic wont change that, no matter how hard you try.

EDIT: if some says they need a BOE for upgrade.. and they then refuse to equip it, it is them who is the ninja and they should be outed in the same way as this ninja has been.

you guys should be ashamed.

TLDR:  like i care, anyone who wants to engage in the convo will read it, trolls prob wont.

Edited March 16, 2017 by Nosleep

[Oakenlix 79]

@Nosleep, dude, you're an utter idiot. Why did you write this pile of crap?

[Haestingas 30]

I need gold just like you idiots need a BoE that you were too lazy to farm yourselves. If you couldn't be bothered to buy the BoE then it's obviously not that large of an upgrade or you just don't care enough. I'll bet that every single person advocating for letting scrubs get valuable BoE upgrades are not in top guilds. Fact is all my tanks had stockades because they sacked up and farmed gold and bought them. Fact is all of our dps have edgemasters because they sacked up and farmed gold to buy them.

You guys just try to label BoE need rollers ninjas because you are too lazy to farm these things yourselves, so this labeling benefits your lazy play style. It's also somewhat ironic because if everyone rolls needs on valuable BoEs then TRUE NINJAS CANT HAPPEN.

 

[Zakkur 0]

Why was this thread revived after half a month.

Ninjaing is when loot is changed to Masterloot or when one guy waits till the last second and rolls need when everyone else already rolled greed.

Regarding BoE, loot rules depends on the group but usually epics and high priced rares are rolled need.

Because if you run a dungeon such as UBRS, you are doing it for a specific item from a boss or quest, not for the .001% chance that a 400g epic will drop.

I must ask you people that think need > greed only. If you run Strat Live, do you also think righteous orbs only go to melee dps + Priest? Only those classes can use them correctly and every other class should pass?

[nooobieee 3]

6 hours ago, Nosleep said:

just because an item has a high gold value when sold, doesnt mean you need it over someone for whom its an upgrade.

Nosleep, your argument is flawed. If the item is BoE then the value is pretty much by definition the price of the item on the AH. That means its value is precisely the same for every player in the group. If someone for whom it would be an upgrade loses the roll, she has the immediate opportunity buy it from the winner.

For BoP, the value is the vendor/DE value to most group members, but much higher to those who will use the item and not have to buy an item (which may be inferior) on the AH for much more then the vendor value. Indeed, you could argue the item is priceless if it is BoP and also BiS for someone. But for everyone else, it's the vendor price or the DE value. Regardless, BoP items are regulated through need/greed rolling (if you can't equip it you can't select need in the first place).

[Alexensualisright 7]

I don't care about anyone else.If i like an item i'll need it, couldn't care less if it isn't for my class. Not my problem if you salty nerds get mad, you can't do anything to me btw.

[Nosleep 4]

9 hours ago, Oakenlix said:

@Nosleep, dude, you're an utter idiot. Why did you write this pile of crap?

you act like a troll who adds absolutely ZERO to almost every convo and topic you post in on these forums.

 

oh except for your constant insults towards anyone who doesnt share the same view as you, but thanks for your constructive input

 

if you dont agree with the points i have raised, thats fine.. if you want to make counter arguments to any of the points i have raised, thats fine... but you mate.. just spew insults like a 12 year old... thats not fine.. you should be ashamed.

Edited March 17, 2017 by Nosleep