Horde Mage Beerwizzard ninjas Stockade Pauldrons

[Oakenlix 79]

... and yet not a single one of you has proven that someone who can wear a BoE item needs it more than others, but you continue arguing. It's quite hilarious.

[Flexi 12]

Edit: Deleted for duplicate post.

Edited January 28, 2017 by Flexi

[Flexi 12]

17 minutes ago, The Fapmonsoon said:

You must be a liberal. No one ever went that far as saying professions mattered. However, patterns I feel should go to the person who has the ability to learn it. This is simple. Player A had a pre-raid BIS drop that was a HUGE improvement for him. Player A also is playing one of the hardest roles in the instance mind you. Player B sees the pre-raid BIS item and thinks "I need this more than him so I am going to need it".

This kind of behavior actually isn't just ninja looting imo, but it discourages tanks from doing that role. How many times has someone spammed for a tank for 30-40 mins (at least)? Now think of how long it takes to get a dps. Hes blacklisted in my book and I have already petitioned for my guild to include him on that list as well. Disgusting.

Nobody said that. I never claimed anyone said that. I am just saying you cannot selectively apply one set of rules to only a few items and not every item. Either every BoE item should be rolled for by the entire group or none of them should.

How hard it is to play any particular role is completely irellevant. The fact of the matter is that when you have the option of liquidating a parcticular item into large amounts of gold then every player needs the item just as much. A mage can sell the pauldrons and get an Elemental Mage Staff. A druid can sell the pauldrons and buy a Warden staff. A rogue can sell the pauldrons and buy a Krol Blade. It has equal value to everyone in this case.

P.S. Skip the "You must be a liberal." part. I dont believe in the left/right paradigm, and would rather judge every issue on its own merits rather than adhere to group thinking. Without intending to offend, It just makes you look like an idiot.

[Flexi 12]

9 minutes ago, Coop said:

You can always tell who played retail vanilla and who didn't from these threads. 

It was always established that you only roll need on gear that you can use as an upgrade. If you want the item to sell then that is the whole purpose of the greed button.

These sorts of incidents are a clear example of being a ninja. 

I played vanilla, and I never thought anyone should be entitled to BoE items just because they happen to be able to use them. Your point is moot.

[Oxblood 5]

Hypothetically, if you were running SM and Scarlet Boots dropped would you roll need on them over the warrior? They are BoE blue boots that you could sell on the AH for a couple gold.

Similarly for Dungeon Sets, would you roll need on Shadowcraft Bracers just so you could sell them over a Rogue/Durid who would equip them? 

Most people I have grouped with, and IMO the general attitude would be that if the player needs it and would wear you would pass/greed roll.

The only reason you rolled Need on the Epic was because you saw that it had much higher gold value and you got greedy. 

As I said in my earlier post, there is nothing against the ToS in what you did, but as is evident from this thread there are many people who think it is an attitude that they do not want to group with. 

[The Fapmonsoon 14]

Nah, it really doesn't. You however have done an outstanding job on proving you are an idiot. Tell me how anyone who cannot use an item NEEDS that item? Again, I point out that you obviously never played vanilla when it was live. Nothing you say will change the fact that this guy has been labeled as a ninja (as he should) and no amount of insulting my intelligence will make me believe in your convoluted understanding of need vs greed. For someone who doesn't "believe in the left/right paradigm" you sure as hell fit into the self entitled liberal label.

 

P.S. You can tell me to skip something all you want. Sad thing for you is that I am able to think for myself so it means nothing to me. If the shoe fits, wear it snowflake

[Coop 3]

8 minutes ago, Flexi said:

I played vanilla, and I never thought anyone should be entitled to BoE items just because they happen to be able to use them. Your point is moot.

I'm talking about the general consensus at the time, not one person's opinion. 

Unless you're trying to tell me that wasn't how the vast majority of players used the system at that time, in which case you're talking shit.

[Flexi 12]

3 minutes ago, Coop said:

I'm talking about the general consensus at the time, not one person's opinion. 

Unless you're trying to tell me that wasn't how the vast majority of players used the system at that time, in which case you're talking shit.

I will have to ask for some evidence to your claim that this is how the consensus was at the time. Otherwise your statement that I am talking shit comes with a certain sense if irony.

Edited January 28, 2017 by Flexi

[Coop 3]

8 minutes ago, Flexi said:

I will have to ask for some evidence to your claim that this is how the consensus was at the time. Otherwise your statement that I am talking shit comes with a certain sense if irony.

Sure I'll just dig out all the evidence I kept from 2005 just in case a thread like this came up in 2017...  

You can look up the vanilla wiki,  that explains the difference quite clearly. 

Edited January 28, 2017 by Coop

[The Fapmonsoon 14]

9 minutes ago, Flexi said:

I will have to ask for some evidence to your claim that this is how the consensus was at the time. Otherwise your statement that I am talking shit comes with a certain sense if irony.

NEED = You can use the item and its an upgrade

GREED = You want it to sell it (also why its conveniently a gold coin. Hmmm, gold coin.... Gold.)

 Yep Checks out. Looks like a little common sense could have helped you here. Proof that common sense isn't as common as people would like to believe. Again, this further proves this kid never played vanilla, or if he did he was still leveling when TBC came out.... but even then, this was not acceptable on TBC either.  

[Oakenlix 79]

You motherfuckers forget that whoever can wear this BoE item could also just buy it from AH for the same price others can sell it, so its value is the same for everyone = everyone should roll the same.

Edited January 28, 2017 by Oakenlix

[Flexi 12]

46 minutes ago, Oxblood said:

Hypothetically, if you were running SM and Scarlet Boots dropped would you roll need on them over the warrior? They are BoE blue boots that you could sell on the AH for a couple gold.

Similarly for Dungeon Sets, would you roll need on Shadowcraft Bracers just so you could sell them over a Rogue/Durid who would equip them? 

Most people I have grouped with, and IMO the general attitude would be that if the player needs it and would wear you would pass/greed roll.

The only reason you rolled Need on the Epic was because you saw that it had much higher gold value and you got greedy. 

As I said in my earlier post, there is nothing against the ToS in what you did, but as is evident from this thread there are many people who think it is an attitude that they do not want to group with. 

Let me lay out my thoughts on this.

It is my opinion that while the Need/Greed/Pass options works great for items that are Bind on Pickup, the same system cannot be used for Bind on Equip items.

In the case of the Scarlet Boots, lets say they are worth 10 gold on the auction house. Since the boots are BoE, every mail user has equal opportunity to wear them without specifically running the dungeon where they drop, at the cost of 10 gold.

Where I think our disagreement comes from is that we have different views on what loot is. For Bind of Pickup items, it is very simple. You get a group together with the aim of hunting down a particular, or multiple items from the loot table for that dungeon, and thus when any item drop, you select either Need or Greed or Pass depending on wether or not that item fit the criteria for an upgrade for your class.

As for Bind on Equip items, it becomes more complex. Because of the ability to trade any BoE item with other players either directly or through the auction house, the item becomes just another form of currency like gold already is.

When you are in a group and those boots drop off the trash, what really drops is 10 gold coins the group get to pick Need or Greed on. There is no objective criteria you can use to which any one player need the 10 gold more than any other player, and as such the option to Need on the item is essentially the same as the option to Greed. Because the game will always prioritize a roll of Need over a roll of Greed, the best course of action is for the entire group to press Need, as it prevents any single player from selecting the Need options after the rest of the group choose how to roll.

While the boots technically is an upgrade for the warrior in the group, having the group pass (greed) on that particular item means they effectively elect to opt out of the opportunity to make ten gold coins on the auction house which could have been used to acquire a similar BoE item for their own class.

 

As for how I would react in this circumstance, I would happily pass the Scarlet Boots to the warrior, or the Shadowfang Bracers to the rogue, but not because I feel like I have any sort of obligation to do so, or because I think he is more entitled to have them than I am, but because I feel like its a nice thing to do in that particular group. But I need to make a judgement on every item individually as to how much I value them. It would of course be very nice of me to pass an Edgemaster's Handguards to the DPS warrior in my party, but at that point I feel like the benefit to being nice to the stranger in the group does not outweigh the benefit of me rolling on the item so I can trade it for an item that would hugely benefit my own character. This is the same reason why many Molten Core raids often choose to keep the BoE drops for the people organizing the raid rather than have them rolled out like all the other loot.

 

I hope this explained some of my reasoning for defending Beerwizzard in this thread, and I hope you can see that there is no clear cut definition to what constitutes ninjalooting when it comes to BoE's as it ultimately comes down to wether or not you view liquidable items first and foremost as an upgrade for a character or as a form of currency. I personally see them as the latter.

 

Edited January 28, 2017 by Flexi

[Coop 3]

17 minutes ago, Oakenlix said:

You motherfuckers forget that whoever can wear this BoE item could also just buy it from AH for the same price others can sell it, so its value is the same for everyone = everyone should roll the same.

If that was the case then why did Blizzard themselves change the system in later expansions to stop shit like this happening?

You can try and justify your greed all you want, but the system was never intended to be used that way.

[The Fapmonsoon 14]

Then please explain to me Flexi how you NEED the gold more than someone else? This is the flaw in your logic.

[Coop 3]

9 minutes ago, Flexi said:

Let me lay out my thoughts on this

When you are in a group and those boots drop off the trash, what really drops is 10 gold coins the group get to pick Need or Greed on. There is no objective criteria you can use to which any one player need the 10 gold more than any other player, and as such the option to Need on the item is essentially the same as the option to Greed. Because the game will always prioritize a roll of Need over a roll of Greed, the best course of action is for the entire group to press Need, as it prevents any single player from selecting the Need options after the rest of the group choose how to roll.

While the boots technically is an upgrade for the warrior in the group, having the group pass (greed) on that particular item means they effectively elect to opt out of the opportunity to make ten gold coins on the auction house which could have been used to acquire a similar BoE item for their own class. 

 

The problem is you're trying to redefine stuff to suit your argument.

It's not effectively 10 gold, its an item. What happens if that item is not on the auction house and the other person can't just grind the gold to buy it? A BoP can be converted into gold too, the argument is exactly the same it's just different quantities of gold involved.

Greed is not effectively pass either. If that was the case why is there a separate pass button? 

 

 

[Flexi 12]

11 minutes ago, The Fapmonsoon said:

Then please explain to me Flexi how you NEED the gold more than someone else? This is the flaw in your logic.

I never said this.

Edited January 28, 2017 by Flexi

[The Fapmonsoon 14]

No, your point is that this is gold not an item. It is an item that can be sold for gold. There is a difference. So again, Greed = monetary value, Need = person needs said item (not the gold it can be sold for).

Again, under your logic - How do you NEED the gold more then someone else? You are GREEDY. There is the difference that you cant seem to get through your head.  

[Oakenlix 79]

33 minutes ago, The Fapmonsoon said:

Then please explain to me Flexi how you NEED the gold more than someone else? This is the flaw in your logic.

No, thats the flaw in your reading comprehension.

Everyone need gold equally, and thats what we are saying as an argument that everyone should roll need for BoE, because any BoE is tradable for gold.

[The Fapmonsoon 14]

Can the two of you be any more mentally challenged?? Jesus. YOU DONT NEED GOLD, YOU WANT GOLD. WANT = GREED. Oakenlix please go back to retail if you are too stupid to understand a basic need/greed/pass mechanic.

[The Fapmonsoon 14]

Well you have a point there, but its not cata so we don't have goblins yet as a playable race lol

[Flexi 12]

We obviously have very different perspectives here, but as much as I would like to debate this further I dont see the point if we cannot keep doing it in a civilized manner without resorting to namecalling and insults. I will therefore just say that we all should agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Edited January 28, 2017 by Flexi

[The Fapmonsoon 14]

Yep, I agree you have a ninja mentaility. That is your perspective. I see you cannot argue with logic anymore so you claim its because I am calling you an idiot on why you are bowing out. (again, let me point to exhibit a - Liberals).

You never NEED gold. Is it a great thing to have - Yes. But you never NEED it. That item that can be worn however - he needed. End of topic. Flexi what is your game characters name and server? Just so I know if I need to petition to have you blacklisted also - Since you are ok with ninja's and all.

[Flexi 12]

8 minutes ago, The Fapmonsoon said:

Yep, I agree you have a ninja mentaility. That is your perspective. I see you cannot argue with logic anymore so you claim its because I am calling you an idiot on why you are bowing out. (again, let me point to exhibit a - Liberals).

You never NEED gold. Is it a great thing to have - Yes. But you never NEED it. That item that can be worn however - he needed. End of topic. Flexi what is your game characters name and server? Just so I know if I need to petition to have you blacklisted also - Since you are ok with ninja's and all.

This is exactly why I will stop posting. You are intentionally being dishonest by using straw man arguments. "Since you are ok with ninja's and all" is simply not true. I never said this. I am opposed to ninjalooting as much as you are, but I am disagreeing with your definition of what constitutes ninjalooting. But if you cannot argue against what I actually say, but rather have to twist what I write to better suit your argument, what is the point?

My name is the same as what I post under, I play Alliance and I play on Elysium PvP. But do everyone a a favor. If you are making some kind of petition, link to this thread so that others can make up their own mind. Im out of here.

[The Fapmonsoon 14]

Ah, good. I never have to worry about grouping with you then.

Also yes, you argue the typical "loot whore/Ninja" argument - BUT BUT I CAN GET GOLD FOR IT SO I NEED IT MORE!

You are completely ok with ninja's you are just too slow to understand what constituted ninja'ing in vanilla or even TBC for that matter. If you cannot use the item (NOT THE GOLD) then its not a NEED. its simple. Enjoy ignoring the topic now since you are taking the option to not defend yourself on it anymore. I am not making a petition at all. You have done me no wrong. however I really do hope others see this so they can see what kind of greedy pos you are.

P.S. I really hope a BoE BiS Pre Raid item drops and you lose it.

[Cephei 8]

You know there is a "I need gold" button on the roll window, right? It's literally called "Greed".

Btw as of now, the ninja has been kicked out of two guilds already. Was really worth it, wasn't it?

22 minutes ago, Flexi said:

but I am disagreeing with your definition of what constitutes ninjalooting.

You're free to do that, however the majority of people disagree with you, ending up with the guy who ninja'd the shoulders where he fucked his character for good and will not be able to join any decent guild now.

Edited January 28, 2017 by Cephei