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Matt45

AP, Crit, and Hit

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Some time back I found this spreadsheet on Nostalrius showing your pre-BIS https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1j81TgG0p_HrYKajiUiQfYIoSUx1culzy2u_Fc4wtiS8/htmlview?sle=true#

I play a hunter and I have been following it but I have begun to question it a little.  Exactly how much CRIT% and HIT do you need before you should just focus on accumulating Agility and AP.  Thanks.

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From what I've researched, the hit cap is 9. Some say it's 8-9, but more are saying 9. Dont know about crit though, or if there even is a minimum 

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I would also be interested what the hit cap for hunters is now actually. I've seen multiple different calculations for hit cap that suggest its either 8%, 8,6% or 9%. Since hit comes only in full 1% steps, 8,6 and 9% would basically mean the same, just that the difference in the last percent might be worth less if its 8,6%.

Based on what i saw for PvP and any mobs that are lvl 61 or lower you only need 5% hit, for lvl 62 you need ~6% and for lvl 63+(including lvl skull mobs) you need the 8-9% cap. Also there seems to be no difference between auto attacks and aimed shot/multi shot, only tranq or arcane shot might have a higher hitcap since they are not physical abilities.

 

Would be cool if someone could confirm the hit caps, maybe someone runs 8% and can tell wether or not he misses any shots.

 

/Edit all the caps and percentages i mentioned are with 300 weapon skill, since + weapon skill from items or racials might influence the calculations.

Edited by Trales

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2 hours ago, Trales said:

I've seen multiple different calculations for hit cap that suggest its either 8%, 8,6% or 9%. Since hit comes only in full 1% steps, 8,6 and 9% would basically mean the same, just that the difference in the last percent might be worth less if its 8,6%.

Assuming you are attacking a boss (level 63), their defense level will be 315. If the difference between your weapon skill and the target's defense is greater than 10, the formula for calculating miss chance is this: 

7% + (Defense Skill - Weapon Skill - 10)*.4%.

If your weapon skill is 300, the formula is this: 7% + (315-300-10)*.4% = 9%. So the hit cap is 9%. Whether or not it's 8.6% or 9% isn't really relevant, since "never missing" would imply >= 8.6% hit, and as you mention, since hit chance in vanilla only increases in increments of 1%, the effective cap is 9%. Wasting .4% hit (even if the hit cap were 8.6%) is not nearly as big of a DPS loss as missing .6% of the time. 

If the difference between your weapon skill and their defense is less than or equal to 10, the formula for calculating miss chance is this:

5% + (Defense Skill - Weapon Skill)*.1%

If your weapon skill is 305 (from a racial bonus, for example), the formula is this: 5% + (315-305)*.1% = 6%. So the hit cap for trolls with bows or dwarves with guns is 6%. This means going from 300 weapon skill to 301 weapon skill is effectively lowering your miss chance by 2.6%. However, each point after that has a very lessened effect. 301 to 302 weapon skill only decreases miss chance by .1%.

2 hours ago, Trales said:

only tranq or arcane shot might have a higher hitcap since they are not physical abilities.

Tranquilizing Shot always has a 1% chance to miss, regardless of your + hit, if I'm not mistaken. Not sure about Arcane Shot. 

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okay thanks, i've seen those calculations before but some had different numbers so i wasn't sure.

 

I'll just get 5% for dungeons/pvp/farming for now and will aim for 8-9 hit once im ready for raids, might have to specc into survival then.

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+weapon skill and racials DO NOT affect the hit cap. The formula caps at your level *5 for determining hit chance and glancing blows, just like defense does for crushing blows.

Extra Racials and +skill from items only gives 0.04 hit/crit/reduced dodge/parry/block per point of bonus weapon skill above your level cap to a maximum of 10, as well as reducing the damage penalty of glancing blows. (weapon skill is essentially worthless for ranged weapons due to having negligable impact and is only worthwhile for stacking with melee weapons since removing the reduction from glancing blows is a massive dps increase)

So a Troll still needs 9% to hit cap with bows but will get a free 0.2% hit/crit from racial if they're capped.

The only time +skill actually improves your chance to hit dramatically is when your current skill is less than your maximum, with +racial skills allowing you to more easily skill up to your level cap maximum since it has a higher effective limit which means your chance to gain skill is also higher since it only really slows down a lot in the last 5 points.

 

It is however common  a lot of private servers to fuck it up to some degree or another, such as letting +weapon skill/defense skill increase your effective level and effectively trivalize raid mechanics. I haven't noticed that happening on elysium yet, but if it is, it needs to be fixed.

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11 minutes ago, ZanathKariashi said:

+weapon skill and racials DO NOT affect the hit cap. The formula caps at your level *5 for determining hit chance and glancing blows, just like defense does for crushing blows.

Extra Racials and +skill from items only gives 0.04 hit/crit/reduced dodge/parry/block per point of bonus weapon skill above your level cap to a maximum of 10, as well as reducing the damage penalty of glancing blows. (weapon skill is essentially worthless for ranged weapons due to having negligable impact and is only worthwhile for stacking with melee weapons since removing the reduction from glancing blows is a massive dps increase)

So a Troll still needs 9% to hit cap with bows but will get a free 0.2% hit/crit from racial if they're capped.

The only time +skill actually improves your chance to hit dramatically is when your current skill is less than your maximum, with +racial skills allowing you to more easily skill up to your level cap maximum since it has a higher effective limit which means your chance to gain skill is also higher since it only really slows down a lot in the last 5 points.

 

It is however common  a lot of private servers to fuck it up to some degree or another, such as letting +weapon skill/defense skill increase your effective level and effectively trivalize raid mechanics. I haven't noticed that happening on elysium yet, but if it is, it needs to be fixed.

Sorry, but your post is pure bullshit. 

Weapon skill indeed lowers hit cap. Therefore Troll hunter using a bow or Dwarf using a gun only need 6% hit.

Straight quote from vanilla wiki:

Racial bonuses provided +Weapon Skill, and thus turned out to be pretty valuable for improving your +hit capability. For Humans, Dwarves, Orcs and Trolls their racial bonuses increased their Weapon Skill at Level 60 from 300 to 305. With a 305 Weapon Skill, your base miss rate against a Level 63 mob (or skull boss) was only 6% instead of 9%.

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And the wiki is wrong because on the hit portion where the actual weapon skill vs defense formula is it straight up says the calculation is capped by your level *5, so it doesn't matter how much skill you have, it can never apply more than your level *5 to determining base chance to hit. Any extra only applies the bonus listed.

Do a little research before blindly trusting a wiki. EJ did extensive testing during late vanilla with weapon skill bonuses and none of them affected the base hit cap but were determined to be valuable for melee due to the aforementioned reduction of glancing blow penalty.

Edited by ZanathKariashi

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1 minute ago, ZanathKariashi said:

And the wiki is wrong because on the hit portion where the actual weapon skill vs defense formula is it straight up says the calculation is capped by your level *5, so it doesn't matter how much skill you have, it can never apply more than your level *5 to determining base chance to hit. Any extra only applies the bonus listed.

No it's not wrong, you are. It has ALWAYS been like this. Go make Troll lvl 60 if you dont believe me.

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Like i said, if it's that way on Elysium it's a bug and needs to be fixed because bonus weapon skill has never affected base hit chance. The weapon skill vs Defense formula has always capped at your level *5, the racial bonus only lets you skill weapons more easily or gives you a free 5 bonus points if you're competely capped.

Edited by ZanathKariashi

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58 minutes ago, ZanathKariashi said:

Like i said, if it's that way on Elysium it's a bug and needs to be fixed because bonus weapon skill has never affected base hit chance. The weapon skill vs Defense formula has always capped at your level *5, the racial bonus only lets you skill weapons more easily or gives you a free 5 bonus points if you're competely capped.

Look, unless you can provide realiable information about this from some retail vanilla developer, it's just he said/she said. In the end the only thing that matters is how it works here and since I'm playing Orc, I can't test this stuff.

Therefore I stand behind what I said and how it worked on Nostalrius, Kronos and how it is written on the wiki. I am sure you can find many topics that support this. If you are so eager to say that you are right about it and you absolutely know, then take it to the devs.

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2 hours ago, ZanathKariashi said:

+weapon skill and racials DO NOT affect the hit cap.

Please don't lie and misinform up-and-coming hunters with your garbage.

1 hour ago, ZanathKariashi said:

And the wiki is wrong because on the hit portion where the actual weapon skill vs defense formula is it straight up says the calculation is capped by your level *5, so it doesn't matter how much skill you have, it can never apply more than your level *5 to determining base chance to hit.

http://vanilla-wow.wikia.com/wiki/Hit Learn to read:

"Racial bonuses provided +Weapon Skill, and thus turned out to be pretty valuable for improving your +hit capability. For Humans, Dwarves, Orcs and Trolls their racial bonuses increased their Weapon Skill at Level 60 from 300 to 305. With a 305 Weapon Skill, your base miss rate against a Level 63 mob (or skull boss) was only 6% instead of 9%."

Nowhere on that page does it say anything about it being capped by your level. What it says is that your base weapon skill maximum is determined by your level, which is where you get the Level*5 thing. However, weapon skill can be raised above that, and higher weapon skill will reduce your miss chance.

1 hour ago, ZanathKariashi said:

EJ did extensive testing during late vanilla with weapon skill bonuses and none of them affected the base hit cap

Provide some links, please? Everything I've found (literally everything) shows that weapon skill affects hit cap. It was that way in vanilla (when I played); it has been that way in every private server I've ever played on; everyone (except you) agrees that's how it works; that's how it works here (have tested it with my troll hunter; can confirm); you can't provide any evidence to support your claim, and I refuse to believe some random noob whose first post was disagreeing with a well-established fact.

Also, read up on this page: http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Weapon_skill

"Patch 1.4.0 (2005-05-05): Fixed a bug where weapon skills were inappropriately capped at 5 times level. Characters should now gain benefit from weapon skill bonuses beyond their normal cap."

"Prior to patch 2.0, some items granted extra Weapon Skill directly, making it possible to have a weapon skill in excess of your level * 5."

So please stop spreading your lies and misinformation. It has the very serious potential to turn future hunters into the dreaded "huntard."

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Because there was a bug that prevented races with bonus weapon skill from being able to gain weapon skill above level*5 so they were stuck at 300/305 and their racial bonus did nothing.

And the post is true you COULD have weapon skill above level * 5, which gave you 0.04% hit/crit and reduced the chance to be dodged/parried/blocked and nothing else. It's speaking in past tense because 2.0 removed weapon skill and added weapon skill raiting, which was later removed and replaced with expertise because it was completely worthless with the removal of the glancing blow reduction and a waste of item value.

According to EJ's research the only effect of weapon skill on hit was if you managed to reach +15 weapon skill, it reduced the effective hit cap to 8% because the true hit cap was 8.6% but since outside of the bonus from weapon skill, all bonuses to hit were whole numbers which forced to you have 9% to truly cap.

This remained true into to TBC which only changed 3 aspects of weapon skill until it's removal in 2.3.

Items no longer gave weapon skill directly and instead gave weapon skill rating.

It no longer reduced glancing blow damage reduction.

Crit per bonus point was upgraded to 0.1 up to from 0.04.

Nothing else about it changed, and there isn't a single resource from the time period that mentions a lower hit cap anywhere.

Edited by ZanathKariashi

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7 hours ago, ZanathKariashi said:

there isn't a single resource from the time period that mentions a lower hit cap anywhere.

Nor is there a single resource stating that it didn't lower your miss chance. Something, by the way, we've been asking for you to provide. Saying the "EJ's research" over and over doesn't prove shit. Show us some links to that information and maybe we'll believe you. Until then, you're just a random noob whom has no idea of what they're talking about.

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There is no point in arguing over this, as far as the hit formula goes, there are multiple sources that contradict themselves and based on my experience with other vanilla servers, i can tell that every server uses a different formula. If you want to be thorough, you can either ask a developer with access to the source code or you can gather empirical data yourself, anything else is just pure speculation.

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I've looked into this in depth in the past, there wasn't any extensive EJ research for hit formulas during vanilla. There was however solid evidence that the cap was above 8% and equal or below 9%.

The only extensive research came during TBC which gave us the formula that most vanilla servers use, this is the formula that Fisher explained above (9% cap).

You can see this formula on the mangos code here: https://github.com/cmangos/mangos-classic/blob/22b0a55d3384cf8905f76260a8f1fd3aab7b130f/src/game/Unit.cpp#L2640

The other alternatives are Baeza's formula (8% cap) which is what Kronos uses and the 8.6% formula.

Baeza's formula has been proven wrong with vanilla screencaps.

The 8.6 formula is a product of people reading the blue post concerning pvp hit formulas and making shit up so it fits the 8-9 cap. It was never properly tested and its most likely wrong.

Elysium is probably using the TBC formula but I haven't had the chance to test it yet.

 

Either way, whoever is saying weapon skill doesnt affect hit is plain wrong.

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Through all of my reading, my understanding is that added weapon skill cannot change the chance for a glancing blow for melee weapons.  The chance for glancing blows are calculated based on your base weapon skill (lvl * 5), but weapon skill helps offset the damage reduction associated with the glancing blow.  Ranged weapons will never have a glancing blow and is therefore not an issue for hunters.

The chance to miss has always been impacted by weapon skill, even back on retail.  I ran a troll hunter back then, and used less +hit than was accepted so long as I used a bow, and didn't miss any shots (i viewed myself as a lvl 61 skill-wise, and reduced accordingly).  Anecdotal evidence, sure, but it's what I know.  As WoW moved into TBC, Blizzard changed the way a lot of the stats worked, implementing hit rating, crit rating, and expertise rating.  Added weapon skill was removed because just like gear with straight +1% hit, it was too powerful of a statistic moving into higher-level content, largely due to it's impact on the chance to miss.

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