Tank Weapon --> Slow or Fast

[Kase 2]

I have heard that its better an slowly weapon in this source code. Its right? I dont trust it.

Faster weapon should generate more agro and more rage

[Storfan 24]

Lets get a couple of things straight:

1. Technically speed doesnt matter, rage generation in proportional to the weapons basedmg/speed=dps. So no, a faster weapon will not yield you "more aggro and more rage".

2. Previously most endgame-tanks would be using Finkles or Alcors, not because they "generated more rage" (because they didnt) but because rage from incoming damage was bugged allowing you to SPAM heroic strike and since heroic strike threat scales VERY well with faster weapons it made daggers INCREDIBLY powerful for threat generation.

3. With rage from damage fixed, weapon speed doesnt really matter. Infact, due to the nature of WF-totem horde tanks should actually be going for slower weapons now, while alliance tanks can do what ever they want. A medium speed weapon like Quel'Serrar is actually quite good.

[Storfan 24]

[REMOVED]

Edited February 7, 2017 by Storfan

[Squeaky_Wheel 0]

then i have a question:

in the pre-raid best in slot weapon list (which is stickied in this forum) there is an axe hedgecutter

 http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=18498  with 12 stamina and 5 str dps 39.5 .

 

but the mace Hammer of the Vesper http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=18683  is not in that list while having 12 stamina 7 str and 40.2 dps

in my ignorance i  assumed that this is because the axe is faster! (1.9 speed axe vs 2.5 speed hammer)

if the speed does not matter why then the axe is in pre raid BIS and the mace is not?

[Storfan 24]

5 minutes ago, Squeaky_Wheel said:

then i have a question:

in the pre-raid best in slot weapon list (which is stickied in this forum) there is an axe hedgecutter

 http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=18498  with 12 stamina and 5 str dps 39.5 .

 

but the mace Hammer of the Vesper http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=18683  is not in that list while having 12 stamina 7 str and 40.2 dps

in my ignorance i  assumed that this is because the axe is faster! (1.9 speed axe vs 2.5 speed hammer)

if the speed does not matter why then the axe is in pre raid BIS and the mace is not?

I compiled that list on Nostalrius forum previously, way before rage was fixed. It is no longer up to date and the guy who re-posted it here doesnt seem to update it.

[Squeaky_Wheel 0]

4 minutes ago, Storfan said:

I compiled that list on Nostalrius forum previously, way before rage was fixed. It is no longer up to date and the guy who re-posted it here doesnt seem to update it.

is there an updated list somewhere?

also,  does my hammer of the vesper is "good enough" to waste an enchant on it? or should i try to get timeworn mace? 

[Storfan 24]

26 minutes ago, Squeaky_Wheel said:

is there an updated list somewhere?

also,  does my hammer of the vesper is "good enough" to waste an enchant on it? or should i try to get timeworn mace? 

Neither are worth it really, unless gold is no problem. I am of the opinion that every single aspiring tank should get Quel'Serrar because it will last you to Naxx (depending on look-luck), unless you manage to get Broodlords Defender from ZG.

 

EDIT: There is no updated list, no.

Edited February 7, 2017 by Storfan

[KonigsTiger 2]

I think its better to use fast weapon if your hit is low, since missing a hit with a slow weapon can be more punishing than missing with a fast one.

Besides that, it doesn´t matter too much. 

[Storfan 24]

14 minutes ago, KonigsTiger said:

I think its better to use fast weapon if your hit is low, since missing a hit with a slow weapon can be more punishing than missing with a fast one.

Besides that, it doesn´t matter too much. 

As horde with WF-totem and Ironfoe this is a moot point for me, but yes in general that holds true, especially for alliance.

[Undertanker 88]

To me Quel is better than Defender.

More rage from white hits and proc is up well more than 1/3 of the time, giving more average def.

[Undertanker 88]

Also a slower weapon allows for a stronger opening swing when first hitting the mob/boss.   Allowing you then to do a Sunder / Shield slam (If it crit)   right at the start of the pull.

[Storfan 24]

1 minute ago, Undertanker said:

To me Quel is better than Defender.

More rage from white hits and proc is up well more than 1/3 of the time, giving more average def.

Not surprising if you consider the fact that QS have a higher top dmg and higher dps. I only use Bloodlords defender for when defcap is needed. Rest of the time it's QS or Ironfoe.

[Jawohl 3]

"Edited few previously wrong numbers"
Player receives 1~ rage per 30 damage dealt
Player receivves 1~ rage per 90 damage taken

Using a speed 1.3 weapon / 37-70dmg / 41.2 DPS grants you avg 2 - 5 rage per hit, while damage is around 80 - 100 per hit.

Using a speed 1.5 weapon / 50-94dmg / 48.0 DPS  grants you avg 4 - 6 rage per hit, while damage is around 130 - 170 per hit.

Using a speed 2.3 weapon / 83-154dmg / 51.5 DPS grants you avg 5 - 7 rage per hit, while damage is around 150 - 200 per hit.

Examples of these two weapons and their difference in a fight of 60 seconds in Duration :

1.3 speed // Autoattack rage generation 2 - 5 per hit // 46 hits in 60 seconds // 92 - 230 Rage ~ 161 average

Eshkander's Right Claw
1.5 speed // Autoattack rage generation 4 - 6 per hit // 40 hits in 60 seconds // 160 - 240 Rage ~ 200 average
1.5 speed // Autoattack Hit - average threat produced 130-160 // 40 hits in 60 seconds // 5 200-6 400 ~ 5 800 average
1.5 speed // Autoattack Crit - average threat produced 260-300 // 40 hits in 60 seconds // 10 400-12 000 ~ 11 200 average 
1.5 speed // Heroic strike Hit - average threat produced 460-510 // 40 hits in 60 seconds // 18 400-20 400 ~ 19 400 average
1.5 speed // Heroic strike Crit - average threat produced 730-800 // 40 hits in 60 seconds // 29 200-32 000 ~ 30 600 average
-------
Doom's Edge
2.3 speed // Autoattack rage generation 5 - 7 per hit // 26 hits in 60 seconds // 130 - 208 ~ 169 average
2.3 speed // Autoattack Hit - average threat produced 210-270 // 26 hits in 60 seconds // 5 460-7 020 ~ 6 240 average
2.3 speed // Autoattack Crit - average threat produced 430-532 // 26 hits in 60 seconds // 11 180-13 832 ~ 12 506 average
2.3 speed // Heroic strike Hit - average threat produced 500-670 // 26 hits in 60 seconds // 13 000-17 420 ~ 15 210 average 
2.3 speed // Heroic strike Crit - average threat produced 800-1000 // 26 hits in 60 seconds // 20 800-26 000 ~ 23 400 average

Autoattacks generate threat in very similar fashion with both weapons. Ragegeneration is also almost hand to hand.
^ While doing 400 ~ more threat with slower, higher damage weapon with your autoattacks, you are also generating 31 less rage in average. Turned into Shield slam or 2x Sunders that counts as 800 - 1200 Threat.

-----------------

Windfury can proc once every 2.8 - 3.2 seconds with a 20% chance. ( Often refered as " every 3 seconds theres a chance " ) 
---> Beneficial for weapons with proper attack speed such as 3.2 2H Fury, since every autoattack regardless other skills used has a chance of proc, minimising the downtime to only 0.2 seconds.
---> Start fight, first attack (if WF proc, 2.8-3.2) -> 1.3 -> 2.6 -> 3.9 (if WF proc, next 6.7-7-1) -> 5.2 -> 6.5 -> 7.8 (if WF proc, next 10.6-11.0) -> 9.1 -> 10.4 -> 11.7 (if WF proc, next 14.5-14.9-> 13.0 -> 14.3 -> 15.6 ....
---> Start fight, first attack (if WF proc, 2.8-3.2) -> 1.5 -> 3.0 (WF can proc, next 5.8-6.2) -> 4.5 -> 6.0 (WF can proc, next 8.8-9.2) -> 7.5 -> 9.0 (WF can proc, next 11.8-12.2) -> 10.5 -> 12.0 (WF can proc) ....
---> Start fight, first attack (if WF proc, 2.8-3.2) -> 2.0 -> 4.0 (if WF proc, next 6.8-7.2 ) -> 6.0 -> 8.0 (WF can proc, next 10.8-11.2) -> 10.0 -> 12.0 (WF can proc)....
---> Start fight, first attack (if WF proc, 2.8-3.2) -> 2.3 -> 4.6 (WF can proc, next 7.4-7.8) -> 6.9 -> 9.2 (WF can proc, next 12-12.4) -> 11.5 -> 13.8 (WF can proc)....

 ^ Even if you actually would get "more rage" with higher damage weapon when the WF procs, you will not get them as often while being Offtank since you rely on your autoattacks mostly to proc the Windfury, and when it does proc you most likely will dump your rage on abilities and this is during the time WF is on Cooldown, meaning that your abilities will not proc another one, forcing you back to Autoattacking. 
^ When you are Maintank you are spamming all your abilities and therefore its quite unlikely for you to miss any of the Windfury procs you could possibly have and therefore it would not matter if you use a slower weapon for more Autoattack threat, BUT ---> If you are Maintank, you ARE using the FAST SPEED weapon, because you are not Ragestarved and you are spamming Heroic strike.

----> Conclusion :  I see no reason what~so~ever in using a slower, higher damage tanking weapon over faster one as a Horde Offtank / Maintank, unless its going to make you enter a new "Bracket" for rage. I have not made the required calculations for Crul'Shorukh because i dont have one myself, but i am certain that the high damage output it will grant you in combination with all the buffs in~game is going to make it a better choice and thus get you to the "next level".

Broodlords defender / Quel'serrar and such other weapons in comparison to Finkle / Eshkander are no match.
(This is just my calculations and observation with the weapons mentioned, Crul'Shorukh excluded.)

Edited February 8, 2017 by Jawohl

[FullRetard 1]

IDK about damage taken -> rage

 

but it's 30 damage dealt -> 1 rage, there are multiple sources on this

[Undertanker 88]

Damage done.   

30 damage done = 1-rage gained.

90 damage taken = 1-rage gained.

 

Don't spread completely wrong information.  

[Plask 4]

12 hours ago, Storfan said:

 when defcap is needed.

Say no more

[Storfan 24]

11 hours ago, Plask said:

Say no more

I'm using the term with liberty here. Assuming proper consumables, shieldblock and good healing it probably wont be needed anyways, but I like to be able to rely on being crit-immune for certain fights anyways.

[Garun 9]

17 hours ago, Undertanker said:

90 damage taken = 1-rage gained.

Wow that's all you get for damage taken? That's like 15-20 rage from MC boss's melee attacks in preBiS gear.

[Undertanker 88]

Even less with my gear.   So to help with your threat per second:  If I am 100% HP and I know that a crit/crushing from the mob can't kill me and can't line up with some magic mechanic, I'll not use shield block on purpose to eat a crit/crushing to get more damage taken so I can generate more threat.

This is selective of when, how much HP you got, and on what mobs you do this for.    

[Jawohl 3]

27 minutes ago, Undertanker said:

Even less with my gear.   So to help with your threat per second:  If I am 100% HP and I know that a crit/crushing from the mob can't kill me and can't line up with some magic mechanic, I'll not use shield block on purpose to eat a crit/crushing to get more damage taken so I can generate more threat.

This is selective of when, how much HP you got, and on what mobs you do this for.    

Yes. There are only few fights in the game currently ( and later aswell ) where Shield block is actually ability being used, its rageloss in terms of using it and not being crushed )

[Undertanker 88]

On 2/7/2017 at 9:21 AM, Jawohl said:

Autoattacks generate threat in very similar fashion with both weapons. Ragegeneration is also almost hand to hand.

^ While doing 400 ~ more threat with slower, higher damage weapon with your autoattacks, you are also generating 31 less rage in average. Turned into Shield slam or 2x Sunders that counts as 800 - 1200 Threat.

-

 

Nice try again.

You are not factoring in initial weapon swing damage/rage which doesn't take into account weapon speed.   Second, you are not dropping remainders with your damage thresholds, not factoring in crusader uptime differentials.

#Deathbringer

[Jawohl 3]

Yes, it is a basic calculation. If the initial attack is what bothers you then maybe you should start a fight with slow weapon for your first swing that is instant. You guys are free to use Quel'serrar if you so wish.

I also did not take in count the Eshkanders 30% attack speed inrease Chance on Hit, wich has quite legit uptime.

I just posted a simple, basic calculation i have made with three~ four weapons available. Also, there should be no tank around using Crusader. Thats just shameful.

edit : im out of here because the two of you are still roaming forums since Feenix times and you are far from  being productive company. )) bai

Edited February 8, 2017 by Jawohl

[Undertanker 88]

15 minutes ago, Jawohl said:

I just posted a simple, basic calculation i have made with three~ four weapons available. Also, there should be no tank around using Crusader. Thats just shameful.
 

Calculations need sound math or its called BS which adding this comment is over half your post.

Crusader is needed to fuel harder white hits for more rage.  Gives more rage than .75 crit.  Deathbringer has over 55% uptime on crusader.  110 AP average before buffs.  Or 15 agility.... maybe your calculations can help us all here.