What you retail players need to undertand about "Nina Looting" of BoE's

[Ironsides 35]

Just now, Justme said:

People do dungeons because they want a specific BOP. If they wanted a specific BOE they should've bought it. They didn't.

Maybe people do dungeons to get money for their BoEs.

2 minutes ago, Justme said:

The treshold is simple. Need on BOE and Greed on BOP. There is no such thing as a BOP that vendors for enough to buy an item of equal strength.
 

BoE prices are set by the market. They have no value beyond vendor unless the market is willing to pay that value.

When carapace spine xbow comes out, DHC will drop to near worthless. It does not have a static value.

[Cryogenicworks 0]

This topic will always have one side calling the other side names or w/e, but it'd be easier to just specify to group members BEFORE instance runs the specifics about your preference with BoE items, whether it be need immediately or greed if someone 'needs' it. I think this would help prevent threads about people ranting about "HE NEEDED THIS AND I DIDN'T GET IT WAAAAAAAAAAAH." Do what you will with this comment, if anything at all.

[Phreec 0]

That's literally ninjaing though. You don't actually need the specific item, you just want it for the gold it is worth i.e. straight up greed.

[Oakenlix 79]

41 minutes ago, Phreec said:

That's literally ninjaing though. You don't actually need the specific item, you just want it for the gold it is worth i.e. straight up greed.

"Oh, how terrible, people equalize their greed for gold with others' need for gear, bla-bla"

- Look, if a player who can equip a BoE that dropped in a group "actually needs" it, then he would've bought it on AH already. Oh, he didn't have the gold for that? Then stop pretending that it's not all just about gold. BoE drops = gold drops.

 

Edited February 17, 2017 by Oakenlix

[TTL 6]

29 minutes ago, Oakenlix said:

"Oh, how terrible, people equalize their greed for gold with others' need for gear, bla-bla"

- Look, if a player who can equip a BoE that dropped in a group "actually needs" it, then he would've bought it on AH already. Oh, he didn't have the gold for that? Then stop pretending that it's not all just about gold. BoE drops = gold drops.

 

I think we're getting off point here....

Greed is = Don't need
Need is = Need

If we lived in a perfect world WITHOUT douche bags we would follow that simple rule even with expensive items. However we all know there is many players who have low morals in this game and will need for their own greed of wanting gold... which is ninja'ing and is stealing because if you need it for gold, I'm sure the other 4 do too.

Trying to justify your greed is full of flaws, all that needs to be pointed out is the community has accepted you should ALWAYS "need" roll on expensive items such as BoE blues, BoE purples, Flask recipes, Traveler bags etc...

In short, if you feel people should not need then your misinformed, if you feel people should give it to someone who "actually needs it" then your also misinformed and one point is if a 1000g dagger drops... are you gonna "trust" the guy claiming he needs it who actually just manipulates you and sells it after not equipping? I get that if we lived in a perfect world it would be different but we don't.

Greed is = don't need
Need is = need for use (or expensive items boe blues, boe purples, flask recipes)

 

[Iliilliill 0]

8 hours ago, Oakenlix said:

What if you can use the item by selling it to buy an upgrade that you will equip?

Highlighted the key words for you to make the puzzle a bit easier.

 

 Lets look up two word definitions before we proceed with your word play:

greed - a very strong wish to continuously get more of something, especially food or money
need - if you say that someone or something needs something else, you mean that they should have it, or would get an advantage from having it.

Those two definition are very important.
The way you described the use of said item fits greed perfectly. Why do you sell it? Because you want more money. Right up there pal, line two. But if you use the item will you gain and advantage ? No you will not,  in the case in which you can not equip it or you will sell it. Gold is not an advantage in any way or form, because has no restrictions in the earning process. You can earn it from the beginning, till the very end in more than a thousand ways, you can earn it even providing services. Long story short, you have "greed" towards the said item because you will not use it (I will post the description of the word use if you want to argue it), you will sell it and use the gold.

Lets look at the other scenario. A person needs the stats of the items. Why does he need them? Because they will get him an advantage towards the game - in the end of the day this is what this game is PVP and PVE both depend on stats and can do without a single gold spent. But hey cant that be called greed? No because you do not simply want more of the stat, you want a specific amount that you can only aquire only and if only you get certain gear.

One of the best examples: It does not matter if you have 1 copper, 1silver , 1 gold or 10 000 gold if a player has better stats than you he will always beat you. Making gold a "greed" part of the game unlike stats.  

p.p. Blizard also made a very clear non verbal statement about that issue years ago when implementing the need before greed looting system - restricting players for "ninja"looting by force.
 

[Iliilliill 0]

Just now, Oakenlix said:

"Oh, how terrible, people equalize their greed for gold with others' need for gear, bla-bla"

- Look, if a player who can equip a BoE that dropped in a group "actually needs" it, then he would've bought it on AH already. Oh, he didn't have the gold for that? Then stop pretending that it's not all just about gold. BoE drops = gold drops.

 

Such a bold statement. Just answer me this - so the pioneers in the server that "actually needed" better gear to do the first instances actually bought they gear from auction house? You understand how wildly silly that sounds right?

Looting is the source of items, not the auction house.

The auction house is a tool for trading items between players, for arbitrary currency.

Oh, he didn't have the gold for that? - yes he did not because you do not need gold to play this game nor to gear up. You can gear up purely by doing content without the use of gold and trading with players. But you can not use GOLD for trading between players without anybody actually looting anything....

You should really revisit the way items are generated in this game and look back onto the thing for Need and Greed.

P.p. Ofc if you opently say that you Need items that you have greed towards, and you are a "ninja"looter I have no problem with that. You are admitting it and I will just avoid you in groups. Many people will, and the issue will sort itself out. Either nobody will group with you, or more people will adapt your ideology.

[Oakenlix 79]

28 minutes ago, Iliilliill said:

 Lets look up two word definitions before we proceed with your word play:

greed - a very strong wish to continuously get more of something, especially food or money
need - if you say that someone or something needs something else, you mean that they should have it, or would get an advantage from having it.

Those two definition are very important.

First of all, I don't doubt these definitions, what I say is they are applied in a wrong way, and I'll show you why.

With greed, everything is obvious - the more the better. What about need? How do you estimate who would get a bigger advantage from getting a BoE polearm, a warrior or a mage? Later in your post you make this example:

28 minutes ago, Iliilliill said:

 One of the best examples: It does not matter if you have 1 copper, 1silver , 1 gold or 10 000 gold if a player has better stats than you he will always beat you. Making gold a "greed" part of the game unlike stats.  

- but guess what? Having 10 000 gold you can go and buy a good gear upgrade and have a better stats, making gold a "need" part of the game just like stats. If that is your best example, I'm not impressed.

28 minutes ago, Iliilliill said:

The way you described the use of said item fits greed perfectly. Why do you sell it? Because you want more money. Right up there pal, line two. But if you use the item will you gain and advantage ? No you will not,  in the case in which you can not equip it or you will sell it. Gold is not an advantage in any way or form, because has no restrictions in the earning process. You can earn it from the beginning, till the very end in more than a thousand ways, you can earn it even providing services. Long story short, you have "greed" towards the said item because you will not use it (I will post the description of the word use if you want to argue it), you will sell it and use the gold.

This applies just as well to those who demand a BoE to be given to them. Why do they want to get this drop? Because they don't want to spend money to buy it. Gold is a potential advantage in the most obvious way - you buy stuff with it! And just because there are other ways to make gold doesn't mean we should neglet this one.

28 minutes ago, Iliilliill said:

 Lets look at the other scenario. A person needs the stats of the items. Why does he need them? Because they will get him an advantage towards the game - in the end of the day this is what this game is PVP and PVE both depend on stats and can do without a single gold spent. But hey cant that be called greed? No because you do not simply want more of the stat, you want a specific amount that you can only aquire only and if only you get certain gear.

The more stats the better, and with more gold you can buy better gear/more gear pieces, so yes, it can be called greed. 

 

21 minutes ago, Iliilliill said:

Such a bold statement. Just answer me this - so the pioneers in the server that "actually needed" better gear to do the first instances actually bought they gear from auction house? You understand how wildly silly that sounds right?

Looting is the source of items, not the auction house.

The auction house is a tool for trading items between players, for arbitrary currency.

It sounds silly because you just said a silly thing. Obviously if there's no market, then there's no market value = no freely traded BoEs. But we're talking about Elysium with huge population and good healthy market, so what are you talking about?

21 minutes ago, Iliilliill said:

Oh, he didn't have the gold for that? - yes he did not because you do not need gold to play this game nor to gear up. You can gear up purely by doing content without the use of gold and trading with players. 

There are two ways of getting a BoE item - winning it in a group and buying it from AH. Just because you refuse one option doesn't mean you're privileged in another. You may think you "don't need gold to gear up", but other people sure do.

 

PS: sorry for a huge post, just wanted to reply to all the points.

 

Edited February 18, 2017 by Oakenlix

[Iliilliill 0]

No.1 "First of all, I don't doubt these definitions, what I say is they are applied in a wrong way, and I'll show you why.""- you can consult the Cambridge English Dictionary. This is where the definitions are coming from, supported by examples below them. IF you have problem with them ill gladly refer you the contacts of the people taking care of the dictionary.

No.2 On the second remark - if I have 10 000 gold from where I can buy the best gear, will you give me a follow up on that? Because last I checked the only way to aquire gear is to loot it.  But more to your remark - gold provides no access to in game items so it is not a need. About the example: having 10 000 gold will not benefit you unlike having 10 000 of the stats your class needs - straight forward I would love to see you argue that, because that is what the example really is -> 10 000 gold<any amount of stat that you need, check in game helath and dmg formation mechanics - tell me if you find where in the formula you insert gold.  

No.3 To answer your question straight - people demand BoE items because they need them to get better stats. Better stats benefit them. The quote you have taken does not apply, for references look up the examples used in the Cambridge English Dictionary about the context of the meaning of the words need and greed. Once again gold is not present in any character stat creation formula, therefore it does have no benefit.

No.4 Once again look up for reference the context examples of greed. Also greed does not imply if you will benefit from the said thing or not. It is not specific to the subject. Need on the other hand is specific that it provides benefit. When communicating and using the language we have to choose the word that most describes the thing we are refering to or there will be miscommunication. In this case Need defines the example better than greed because it is more specific.
If you are not happy about that, you can turn to your local English linguistics institute and make a complaint.

No.5   You never specified realm nor situation. THis is why I described your statement as bold and silly. YOur exact statement:"Look, if a player who can equip a BoE that dropped in a group "actually needs" it, then he would've bought it on AH already. Oh, he didn't have the gold for that? Then stop pretending that it's not all just about gold. BoE drops = gold drops."  Those are your words. 
Now you are changing the example making it completely diferent . I don't mind the principle is the same - Looting comes before trading. Looting is the method for generating, trading is alternative method for exchanging. If you want an item for the exchange purpose you have greed towards it. IF you want the item because you will use its benefit you have need towards it, once more refer to the Cambridge English Dictionary.

 

No.6 You already debunked that statement with your answer in No.5 - you yourself stated I quote "if there's no market, then there's no market value = no freely traded BoEs"   I can bring you the definition of market if you want it. It is not just traders that aquire items. Market is Both the buyers and the traders. You are privileged in the option of looting because you have put value towards generating this item. YOu have grouped with other and provideda service to either DPS, Tank or Heal. THis is a none spoken agreement that you share loot if not stated otherwise. So you have privillage over that item because you have done your part from the group to get this item and you are the one that actually needs it. In fact this is how your need privilege is formed - You contributed towards creating that item, you need the stats. Whyle the one that wants to sell it has contributed towards generating this item yes! , but he has greed towards it so he has no privillage.
If you so much want to have ultimate right over that item and "privilege to need it"you can farm solo for it, than you are free to do as you see fit, otherwise you have to respect the group effort or you are a ninja.

[Oakenlix 79]

7 minutes ago, Iliilliill said:

Once again gold is not present in any character stat creation formula, therefore it does have no benefit.

Ok... Ok.

I'm sorry, but your whole post is ridiculously dumb. 

[Iliilliill 0]

Or to put the entire argument in simple text - The thing you call "privillage"i call Right. It is simple :
All of you are in a group. All of you contribute towards generating items. In the moment the item is generated - Those who need the stats to gain benefit have both contributed to generating the item and need it. Those who want to sell the item later on the aquire more money have contributed towards generating the item but have greed towards it. 
THe proper thing to do is to give the right to loot to those that stand to benefit from it. This is the netire purpose of the group - you can not do it alone you need each other for your mutual benefit. Not for your personal benefit. For your personal benefit you can famr alone and have the ultimate right to loot.

If nothing else is agreed upon, you will be a ninja if you take away this benefit from people, based on personal greed.

[Iliilliill 0]

Just now, Oakenlix said:

Ok... Ok.

I'm sorry, but your whole post is ridiculously dumb. 

It is a good thing to see you have started "ad hominem" attacks. This is the first sign of loosing the argument.
Just for you  I have posted a simple version of the entire thing above this post.
The idea of what group is and why it is formed.  Or is that dumb too?

Edited February 18, 2017 by Iliilliill
terible spelling :D

[Iliilliill 0]

Here is another strong argument:
At the moment you have to decide on need or greed if you want to sell the item can you:
1. Sell it? No you cant, you have too loot it , go sell it afterwards. No benefit
2. Exchange it for benefit? No, you have to loot it, sell it afterwards. No benefit
3. Get gear for you, or any consumable? No, you have to loot it, sell it afterwards. No benefit

Point being, you do not benefit from the item in anyway - but the guy that needs the stats benefits immediately.
Tis one more argument towards why its Greed and not Need.

[Oakenlix 79]

7 minutes ago, Iliilliill said:

It is a good thing to see you have started "ad hominem" attacks. This is the first sign of Losing the argument.

It is the first sign of me not really giving a crap about your opinion anymore, seeing as you don't make any sense. I'm not here to infinitely argue with dumb people, I'm here to explain my point enough so that actually sane people could understand its legitimacy, and I feel like I've done enough for that.

And yes, I've read your other post too. Sorry, its just as retarded as the previous one.

Upd: lmao at "another strong argument" above.

Edited February 18, 2017 by Oakenlix

[Iliilliill 0]

Just now, Oakenlix said:

It is the first sign of me not really giving a crap about your opinion anymore, seeing as you don't make any sense. I'm not here to infinitely argue with dumb people, I'm here to explain my point enough so that actually sane people could understand its legitimacy, and I feel like I've done enough for that.

And yes, I've read your other post too. Sorry, its just as retarded as the previous one.

Yes classic "ad hominem" , great debating tactic used in prep groups in high school, useless in a real debate.
Fact is you can not argue not one of the points I made, here are the talking points feel free to thinker on them and crush me at any time:

1. Simple linguistics- choosing the word that better describes the issue,  the meaning of the words Greed and Need.
2. Why do people form groups, what is the purpose of the groups - basic definition of what is needed.
3. The ability to benefit from the item right away when you make the decision - or potentially use it to gain some thing in the distant future.
4. Game mechanics, based on your words you can benefit directly from gold equally as much as you can benefit from stats - well I write you are wrong.

In fact I am so sure you can not argue any of this points ill even write to you how to kill them al:
1. Prove that the word need is not something that is for your benefit. 
2. Prove that people do not form groups for mutual benefit.
3. Provide a method to gain direct benefit from the numerical arbitrary value of the item you think that market has set for the item, in the choise of you pressing need.
4. Simply show us a game mechanic formula that benefits the character (stats, health, dmg etc.) that has gold in it.

P.s. If you really did not "give a crap" you would not respond to my post but its too late for now isn't it? There is a good reason why most corps. and public personas do not give response to some thing.
P.p.s. Do not feel obligated to respond to this post I know you will read it. But if you feel so much interested a.k.a. you give a crap how you have shown us above, do respond I would love to read you arguing the talking points.

Edited February 18, 2017 by Iliilliill
spelling again.

[o0oNullo0o 4]

3 hours ago, Iliilliill said:

Here is another strong argument:
At the moment you have to decide on need or greed if you want to sell the item can you:
1. Sell it? No you cant, you have too loot it , go sell it afterwards. No benefit
2. Exchange it for benefit? No, you have to loot it, sell it afterwards. No benefit
3. Get gear for you, or any consumable? No, you have to loot it, sell it afterwards. No benefit

Point being, you do not benefit from the item in anyway - but the guy that needs the stats benefits immediately.
Tis one more argument towards why its Greed and not Need.

Are you saying that if a Freezing Band drops and the warrior wins the ring, he can't go sell that and then buy Stockade Pauldrons? There is benefit to getting BOE even if you don't actually "Need" the stats on it. I personally do not like that people do this, but you cannot argue with logic, dude.

[Oakenlix 79]

7 hours ago, Iliilliill said:

Fact is you can not argue not one of the points I made, here are the talking points feel free to thinker on them and crush me at any time:

If you promise me that you are completely serious about that and truly believe what you say here, that you aren't just trolling me to waste my time, I will make a genuine reply trying to explain things to you one last time.

[`Xdembe` 47]

hey, Oakenlix

 

[`Xdembe` 47]

<<<<<<<<<<<look this

 

[Oakenlix 79]

2 minutes ago, `Xdembe` said:

<<<<<<<<<<<look this

Thanks, didn't know you can change it. 

[MadAxeThrower 0]

If you need an item, roll need, if you don't need it, roll greed, simple.

Need = to equip as a gear improvement.

Greed = to sell for gold.

Need > Greed

 

I really don't see why there is confusion about this? XD

[Oakenlix 79]

40 minutes ago, MadAxeThrower said:

I really don't see why there is confusion about this? XD

Because what you said is wrong.

Edited February 18, 2017 by Oakenlix

[MadAxeThrower 0]

1 hour ago, Oakenlix said:

Because what you said is wrong.

How exactly? Wrong about that Need has priority over Greed? or Wrong about what constitutes Need? (I'm guessing the latter)

For example: in a 5-man party, should a Rogue roll Need on Freezing Band if a Mage needs it as an upgrade?

If your answer is yes, than we have a vastly different understanding on what constitutes fairness and morality in general.

[Justme 9]

58 minutes ago, MadAxeThrower said:

How exactly? Wrong about that Need has priority over Greed? or Wrong about what constitutes Need? (I'm guessing the latter)

For example: in a 5-man party, should a Rogue roll Need on Freezing Band if a Mage needs it as an upgrade?

If your answer is yes, than we have a vastly different understanding on what constitutes fairness and morality in general.

BOEs are pretty much a bag of gold that dropped.

[Rapteg 0]

1 час назад, MadAxeThrower сказал:

How exactly? Wrong about that Need has priority over Greed? or Wrong about what constitutes Need? (I'm guessing the latter)

For example: in a 5-man party, should a Rogue roll Need on Freezing Band if a Mage needs it as an upgrade?

If your answer is yes, than we have a vastly different understanding on what constitutes fairness and morality in general.

Everyone should roll need on it, because Freezing Band = Shanker of Faith for Rogue