Demo shout theoryCraft

[Malga 1]

Hello !

Could you tell me if this assumption is correct on the Elysium server :

Quote

 

Many players do not realize that NPCs use different AP scales than players. While players gain 1 DPS per 14 AP at all levels, NPCs do not. Lv60 elites have been tested to gain about 1 DPS per 2 AP; this means NPCs are affected much more strongly by changes to their AP. For stronger encounters (such as raid bosses), the testing indicates that they have a similar amount of AP, but their damage scales up significantly faster! When you consider many bosses have attacks that deal a multiple of their normal damage, then the stacking effect of AP becomes very apparent.

For example:

 Magmadar: Normal: 1867 - 2476 damage. With demo: 1512 - 2121 damage. (-16.3%)

 Maexxna: Normal: 5491 - 7281 damage. With demo: 4448 - 6238 damage. (-16.3%)

For most level 60 encounters, the observed AP value appears to be ~300 AP. Also, the damage contribution from that AP is ~30% of the NPC's total melee damage. This implies that reducing the NPC's Attack Power to zero will reduce their melee damage by ~30%. So on those encounters, you should apply Demoralizing Shout and Screech, to fully debuff the target's AP

 

Me and my friend are not totally convinced by that.
Specifically, do you confirm that the AP does not scale the same way between a Player, a NPC and a Boss.

If somebody could confirm this please, it could be very helpful for my guild :)

Thanks.

 

[Malga 1]

nobody could confirm ?

please help us to verify this

[Malga 1]

bump !

[Storfan 24]

You should ask in warrior forum. Plenty of theorycrafters there.

[Malga 1]

bump !

[Obsid 0]

Yes it is indeed true. Mobs gain more dps per AP than a player does. So inversely, if you use Imp demo shout, you will be dropping that mobs dps by a substantial amount. 

I have tested and does work. My current warrior is leveling 2h fury and I find the 5 points in Imp demo shout and Imp battle shout too good to pass up while leveling. In a group/raid environment only a select few will need to spec into these so all receive the benefit. 

[Undertanker 88]

3/5 imp demo shout should bring their AP to zero.  

If your raid wants to use curse of recklessness, 5/5 imp demo shout will bring their AP back to zero.

[Roxanne Flowers 15]

Okay Undertanker, now you've got me curious as to the relative (to each other) value of increased Attack Power debuffing via Improved Demoralizing Shout, increased Defense via Anticipation, and increased Armor via Toughness.

Now obviously, the ideal situation is to have all three working for you simultaneously, but if you have to pick two (or one) out of those three ... what offers the best return on investment of talent points (ignoring tier 1 pre-reqs).  When weighing each of these options against each other, what is the precedence order among them ... and does that precedence ordering hold true while leveling or does it change at Level 60?  Also, is this something where you'd be better off spending 3 talent points in all three rather than 5 talent points in only two if your build doesn't have enough points to spread around to get all of them to 5/5?

[Zarant 2]

Now that the project went open source pretty much everything is transparent at this point, most bosses have 290 ap on this server, i will have a look on the attack power formula for mobs some time later and post my findings.

[Roxanne Flowers 15]

If you're able to derive a formula that can explain how much Attack Power computes into Damage per Level, that would be most helpful.  Although we wind up at Level 60 eventually, there's still a fair amount of content to get through before reaching that point.

If the vanilla database is correct for the core we're using, Demoralizing Shout rank 4 is a 140 Attack Power debuff for 30 seconds from a Warrior.  5/5 Improved Demoralizing Shout will improve that by +40% to 196 Attack Power debuff for 30 seconds.

Demoralizing Roar rank 5 is a 130 Attack Power debuff for 30 seconds from a Dire Bear Feral Druid.  5/5 Feral Aggression will improve that by +40% to 182 Attack Power debuff for 30 seconds.

Screech rank 4 is a 100 Attack Power debuff for 4 seconds from a Hunter Pet which can be reapplied every 4 seconds.  There are no Hunter talents that will improve the debuff strength of this Pet Skill.

After that, it's just a matter of figuring out what you want to stack to get to 290 Attack Power debuff strength ... is it not?

Edited March 11, 2017 by Roxanne Flowers

[meridaw 11]

Dont think Demo shout stack with Roar.

[Roxanne Flowers 15]

Request confirmation by testing that Demoralizing Shout does not stack with Demoralizing Roar.

[Zarant 2]

I found out that the assumption from the OP is correct, by bringing the attack power to 0 reduces mob damage by 30%. Mob damage is calculated through the following formula: Damage = BaseDamage * (0.7 + 0.3*AP/BaseAP), This formula only works if a mob has non 0 AP, otherwise its damage won't scale with attack power at all.

And I'm pretty sure that demo shout doesn't stack with demoralizing roar.

[Roxanne Flowers 15]

In which case either Demoralizaing Shout OR Demoralizing Roar should stack just fine with Screech from a Hunter Pet.

Demoralizing Shout rank 4 with 5/5 Improved talent is 196 Attack Power debuff ... add 1x Screech rank 4 to reach 296 Attack Power debuff (total).

Demoralizing Roar rank 5 with 5/5 Improved talent is 182 Attack Power debuff ... add 1x Screech rank 4 to reach 282 Attack Power debuff (total).

Since the "objective" for a Level 63 Boss is 290 Attack Power getting debuffed, either Shout+Screech OR Roar+Screech ought to suffice ... provided that the Hunter Pet can stay in melee and survive without grabbing aggro (Cower on auto works for that) so as to support the Main Tank.

Sounds like a legitimate strategy ... assuming there are 2 debuff slots available to execute it (1 for Demoralizing Shout/Roar and 1 for Screech).  So ... 8 talent points into Beast Mastery for Pet Stamina and Armor becomes useful on a Screech Pet?

[cargalia 2]

why does it matter

[meridaw 11]

Most likely you will just skip using Screech, but if you realy wanna go 8 points into bm to try it, maybe go for a spec like this ?

[Roxanne Flowers 15]

3 hours ago, cargalia said:

why does it matter

 

3 hours ago, meridaw said:

Most likely you will just skip using Screech

Agreed that most likely people will (continue to) skip Screech entirely and continue to bring Wolves for Furious Howl instead, assuming any Hunters are allowed to participate in the first place.  But you have to explore the theory before someone will consent to try it out in practice, just to see if there are any advantages to be found, because theory is one thing, but actually playing the game is something else.  I would presume that the vast overwhelming majority of raiding parties would have no interest in knowing anything about this possible combo of debuffing ... but a few might ... and the forums here are where the word of things like this gets passed around, and from that inspiration forms to try new things.

So even if it doesn't matter to YOU ... it might wind up mattering to someone else ... who presumably would have to be "more adventurous" to even entertain the notion of playing the game in some way other than riding along in the ruts of everyone who has played before.

Insert Hamlet quote to Horatio here.

[meridaw 11]

I actually raided using a owl and wolf on my first character way back in retail vanilla, on a taurent hunter. I recall people hated the sound that bird made.

 

[Roxanne Flowers 15]

I'm playing my Hunter with an Owl right now on Darrowshire, and I have to say that for myself I prefer the sound of Screech to any variety of Bite or Furious Howl or even Growl.  It sounds like something akin to an eagle cry style of sound FX on an Owl.

Anyway, enough digression into stuff that ought to be said in the Hunter Forum.  Back to the Warrior side of the debuffing equation.

[Tlannok 0]

Hi,

I am quiet surprise to see the different figures you present :o
To be sure to understand it well, against boss who do physical damage, if you put a demo shout (or any other ap reducing talent) you will decrease the damage done by 30%?! Isn't it one of the most op talent for tanking then? Even when there is only 8 slot for debuff, this should always be up? Or I miss something...

Thanks