The Devilsaur monopoly.

[Nosleep 4]

Also, funny side note:

 

Quoting blizz T;s and C's on a server that by just existing is breaking them, only shows that we dont care about blizz rules and we 'pick n choose' which ones to follow. 

 

I, and some others, feel there is a need to discus the comparison between win trading in bg's and win trading out of them.

[Voice 2]

Yea they need to get violent with the bann hammer, sure we would loose some good people but thats how its done. Tbh if i get banned cause they think i run horde and alliance on the same server its kinda my own fault.

 

 

[Nosleep 4]

5 minutes ago, Shiamorah said:

One involves honor, and the other doesn't. Easy.

honor kills.

[behemothdog 4]

21 minutes ago, Nosleep said:

honor kills.

I would say 1 is an efficient way of farming honor and ranking and the the other is not.

They are not there to gain pvp ranks. They are there doing it to earn gold and control the supply of a specific crafting item.

Win trading in BG's is there to abuse a system intended to have 2 teams fight for victory.

I would also say that 2 teams in a BG agreeing to trading wins does not really have a pvp solution, and a group in an open area (not instanced) does have a PvP solution.

 

Edited March 9, 2017 by behemothdog

[Nosleep 4]

6 minutes ago, behemothdog said:

I would say 1 is an efficient way of farming honor and ranking and the the other is not.

I would also say that 2 teams in a BG agreeing to trading wins does not really have a pvp solution, and a group in an open area (not instanced) does have a PvP solution.

 

just because its inefficient doesnt means its not the same thing... the principle is mine, and many others point, its not he mob farming, its the unfair pvp win trading. 

 

By that logic, if i do normal win trading, but i dont do it very well and we take too long and generate honor slowly, would that be ok? no.

there is a solution to win trading, as i stated in another post, you can also win trade and do it more than them to mean you beat them in honor brackets = pvp solution.

 

but win trading is against the rules, so win trading back is against the rules.

 

if win trading in bg's and out of bg's are the same thing and imo they are,  then the only solution to this problem is for people to use the same tactic, which when being understood as unfair, like normal win trading, is only advocating cheating to beat cheaters.

Edited March 9, 2017 by Nosleep

[behemothdog 4]

5 minutes ago, Nosleep said:

there is a solution to win trading, as i stated in another post, you can also win trade and do it more than them to mean you beat them in honor brackets = pvp solution.

That is not a pvp solution, that is just breaking the rules more to win. The reason there is an actual pvp solution to the 'mafia' is a coordinated effort with enough participants and bodies can be done to actually fight it. 

It is not unfair, they are using what all players have, access to time and communication. Some have more time, and that's normal in an MMORPG

The mafia is within the rules. 

Win traders are not. 

Edited March 9, 2017 by behemothdog

[Voice 2]

Nobody gives two fucks about the mafia, its the methods they use like running horde and alliance at the same time, sheeping to heal other faction etc.

 

But im pretty sure you know this and are a troll?.

[Nosleep 4]

2 minutes ago, behemothdog said:

That is not a pvp solution, that is just breaking the rules more to win. The reason there is an actual pvp solution to the 'mafia' is a coordinated effort with enough participants and bodies can be done to actually fight it. 

It is not unfair, they are using what all players have, access to time and communication. Some have more time, and that's normal in an MMORPG

The mafia is within the rules. 

Win traders are not. 

Again, by that logic, win trading normally in bg's is just using their access to time and communication and so shouldnt be against the rules .. but it was made against the rules once it was found ppl were doing it, blizz didnt say ''ok well np's cos everyone can win trade' they said no thats not fair and banned ppl for it.

 

I am saying that the principle that lead to win trading being made against the rules and almost everybody agree's it should be, are present here and the comparison imo is very easy to see.. the principle is the point.

 

no, this exact situation is not listed specifically in the rules, but win trading wasnt either untill its discovery, this need to be discussed because its the same thing.

 

[behemothdog 4]

1 minute ago, Voice said:

Nobody gives two fucks about the mafia, its the methods they use like running horde and alliance at the same time, sheeping to heal other faction etc.

 

But im pretty sure you know this and are a troll?.

No, not a troll. I just do not agree that players using tactics and cooperation even across faction lines is wrong.

IMO it's not a bad idea at all, and it has proven to work well. 

[Nosleep 4]

15 minutes ago, Voice said:

Nobody gives two fucks about the mafia, its the methods they use like running horde and alliance at the same time, sheeping to heal other faction etc.

 

But im pretty sure you know this and are a troll?.

 

EDIT: omg im so sorry, i just realised you were not talking to me, i genuinely apologise :)

 

Edited March 9, 2017 by Nosleep

[Nosleep 4]

1 minute ago, behemothdog said:

No, not a troll. I just do not agree that players using tactics and cooperation even across faction lines is wrong.

IMO it's not a bad idea at all, and it has proven to work well. 

I dont think youre a troll.. i do see what youre saying.

 

but when you say ''I just do not agree that players using tactics and cooperation even across faction lines is wrong.''  do you realise that, that is exactly what win traders are doing and so if you think its ok you must see how that should mean you agree in principle with normal win trading?

 

 

[behemothdog 4]

6 minutes ago, Nosleep said:

Again, by that logic, win trading normally in bg's is just using their access to time and communication and so shouldnt be against the rules .. but it was made against the rules once it was found ppl were doing it, blizz didnt say ''ok well np's cos everyone can win trade' they said no thats not fair and banned ppl for it.

 

Quote

I dont think youre a troll.. i do see what youre saying.

 

but when you say ''I just do not agree that players using tactics and cooperation even across faction lines is wrong.''  do you realise that, that is exactly what win traders are doing and so if you think its ok you must see how that should mean you agree in principle with normal win trading?

I can see some logic there, my only issue here is the clear abuse of what can be compared to a 'sport' Think of BG's like IDK football? 

You are there to win. Throwing a game is just ...dirty and deserves hate.

Edited March 9, 2017 by behemothdog

[Nosleep 4]

2 minutes ago, behemothdog said:

I can see some logic there, my only issue here is the clear abuse of what can be compared to a 'sport' Think of BG's like IDK football? 

You are there to win. Throwing a game is just ...dirty and deserves hate.

and so if you and your friends are playing football outside of a sports arena, in your local field, and 1 of your team mates scores own goals or fouls your own players on purpose, would you not look upon them in the same light?

Edited March 9, 2017 by Nosleep

[behemothdog 4]

4 minutes ago, Nosleep said:

and so if you and your friends are playing football outside of a sports arena, in your local field, and 1 of your team mates scores own goals or fouls your own players, would you not look apon them in the same light?

I would yell nasty words at him, but this is not a fair comparison.

Open WPvP is an area w/o rules (minus the obvious) and BG's are goal orientated. As far as I can tell  the only goal in WPvP is 'don't die?' 

Their tactics may be effective, but I can agree that its a shitty thing to do. Within the rules but still shitty. Camping comes to mind. 

PS thanks for remaining civil. 

 

HOWEVER if the devs let this fall in the catch all of the TOS I would understand. 

Edited March 9, 2017 by behemothdog

[Nosleep 4]

7 minutes ago, behemothdog said:

I would yell nasty words at him, but this is not a fair comparison.

Open WPvP is an area w/o rules (minus the obvious) and BG's are goal orientated. As far as I can tell  the only goal in WPvP is 'don't die?' 

Their tactics may be effective, but I can agree that its a shitty thing to do. Within the rules but still shitty. Camping comes to mind. 

PS thanks for remaining civil. 

I can see what youre saying, i really can.

And i dont disagree with he fact there is no outlined rule against it in world pvp... but nobody disagress with the principle behind why win trading is bad, and this with its PVP aspect, is exactly the same.

 

My point is that because they are doing exactly what win traders do, and no one likes win traders, the gains may be less but they are still gaining, it is giving them the same benefit by employing the same tactic as win trading and it should be discussed and looked at.

 

New rules get made for new situations, and this i feel is 1 worth looking at.

Edited March 9, 2017 by Nosleep

[Nosleep 4]

8 minutes ago, behemothdog said:

 

PS thanks for remaining civil. 

Np's, thats what normal ppl do.

 

they discus and present their points of view etc in as mature and factually correct way as they can, without devolving into name calling and sarcastic ego comments made to belittle others.

[Nosleep 4]

Also, anyone stating blizz rules and EULA's etc as a reason why this should be ok.... acting like because blizz say its ok its ok and if they say its not then its not.

 

You should delete your char, leave the server and report yourself to blizz for breaking their rules.

 

This is a discussion about the comparison between win trading in and out of bg's, the principle..

 

its not an exercise in following blizz rules to the letter, cos none of us do that. 

Edited March 9, 2017 by Nosleep

[behemothdog 4]

4 minutes ago, Nosleep said:

Also, anyone stating blizz rules and EULA's etc as a reason why this should be ok.... acting like because blizz say its ok its ok and if they say its not then its not.

 

The same people likely fault blizz for the current state of wow. 

They made a game, we now have access to that game. Thats where it ends. The enemies, classes, skills, overall game design and some small tweaks to obvious mistakes are what's really needed. 

As far as I can tell multiboxing is legal there. Should that be OK here? 

There are reasons that can be argued as to this situation, and "blizz said ok" isn't one of those. 

[Nosleep 4]

1 minute ago, behemothdog said:

The same people likely fault blizz for the current state of wow. 

They made a game, we now have access to that game. Thats where it ends. The enemies, classes, skills, overall game design and some small tweaks to obvious mistakes are what's really needed. 

As far as I can tell multiboxing is legal there. Should that be OK here? 

There are reasons that can be argued as to this situation, and "blizz said ok" isn't one of those. 

no, be careful, multi boxing is not ok... admins made a post about it.

 

You are allowed to do it in very specific situations for very short periods of time, like to trade something between alts or put an enchant on your weapon.

 

But out in the world, so to speak, its not allowed and will get u banned.

[behemothdog 4]

2 minutes ago, Nosleep said:

no, be careful, multi boxing is not ok... admins made a post about it.

 

You are allowed to do it in very specific situations for very short periods of time, like to trade something between alts or put an enchant on your weapon.

 

But out in the world, so to speak, its not allowed and will get u banned.

I know, just using it as a reference as to why the staff should not always just adopt blizzs policies. And this was an example as to where they have already moved away from what blizz did. 

Edited March 9, 2017 by behemothdog

[Nosleep 4]

ahh ok sorry, yes thats my point too, we are not blizz and we break blizz rules when we as a community or they as the admin dont agree with them or dont care about them.

 

We as a community and they as the admins change the rules and make new ones, take the recent war effort for example, they changed rules and objectives to accommodate a new situation....

...this win trading /  co-op pvp situation i feel needs to be looked at.

 

Co-op farming is 1 thing..  but as soon as PVP is involved, i think it becomes win trading.

Edited March 9, 2017 by Nosleep

[Nosleep 4]

If the admins decided that the principle behind win trading is unfair and so anywhere that principle is being used is also unfair, but they dont have time to look at evidence, knowing that the community will do the investigating and collecting of evidence, and all that needs to be done is look at each reported case and decide each case individually.

 

I would happily volunteer my time to look at each case, filter them down to the cases that fit this principle, then forward them to the appropriate person, 

[metagame 8]

I have to say this is pretty bizarre. Win trading has a very specific meaning. It has to do with abusing the queue system to farm marks of honor. Not attacking someone in world pvp is not the same as win trading.

I could maybe see the argument for helping someone else by sheeping them to heal them considered griefing, but it doesn't seem to be comparable to other griefing offenses. Come to think of it, I'm not even sure what Elysium considers griefing at all.

[kilimaw 3]

Every single voiced problem here can be solved via in game means. Every. One.

Which is the main reason no one has been banned. 

 

Wintrading? Cuz horde sheeps alliance or vice versa? Last I checked sheeping a player or mob doesn't instantly make them full health and immune to damage. Bring more people. In game solution. Which is exactly why almost everything in world PvP is not wintrading. Anything anyone can do to help the other faction can be countered by more players, more organization, etc. You can't do that in a BG because a BG is a controlled environment. 

 

Communication? Blizzard made forums so everyone regardless of faction can communicate outside of the game. Blizzard made the game so opposite factions could not communicate in the game. None of them are communicating in the game. 

 

This is classic "I want it butt I don't want to work for it" syndrome. Someone went to the crater. Couldn't get what they wanted in 10 minutes and decided a whine post would get it easier than making friends in this massive MULTIPLAYER online role-playing game. The online equivalent of throwing a tantrum. 

[Nosleep 4]

14 minutes ago, metagame said:

I have to say this is pretty bizarre. Win trading has a very specific meaning. It has to do with abusing the queue system to farm marks of honor. Not attacking someone in world pvp is not the same as win trading.

I could maybe see the argument for helping someone else by sheeping them to heal them considered griefing, but it doesn't seem to be comparable to other griefing offenses. Come to think of it, I'm not even sure what Elysium considers griefing at all.

there are differences in the details on exactly how the 2 opposing factions are assisting each other to gain pvp advantage .. but in principle its exactly the same.

 

win trading in bg's is 1 side preforming an action (in bg's that forfitting games to give marks to the other team who will in return do the same for you) so as the other faction can gain pvp reward/advantage.. and we say thats unfair. 

In this situation, they are preforming actions (assisting the opposite factions players to help then 'win' a pvp battle) ...   this is not just spying and telling trade chat ''the alliance are coming to org so get ready'', this is them purposefully assisting the opposite faction so that they win a battle.

 

If doing that in bg's is considered unfair, then how is doing it in open pvp considered fair?