Snide's END GAME MT TPS Guide for EXPERIENCED Tanks

[Snide 7]

 

[Garun 9]

First off, why did you take Anger Management? It's completely worthless on boss fights and far from the best talent. Yes you might have a bit more rage on the first attempt, but on progression, it's just pointless. Second, you should be using impale build for max threat. Just put on some dps pieces if a boss is on drunk farm and you are having rage problems. Third, why would you put points in Improved Taunt instead of Toughness. Bosses later on are taunt immune and there isn't any situation where you need a shorter cooldown if your dps are gud. The only time I found that it comes in handy is on Lava Annihilators, but even then a fourth tank solves that problem. You got all of the mandatory talents at least.

[Snide 7]

I hope you're being silly. When a boss encounter lasts 20 seconds starting with 100 rage is ideal. Anger management is the best prot talent in the game period. It's extra rage on boss fights, in fact around ~100 if you do it right like in my raid streams. You can do as you please but you're gimping your threat. The rest is just nonsense. Toughness decreases your threat/second, more rage=less rage. Best of luck in however you want to do it but I'd double you on KTM.

[Undertanker 88]

@Mods 
Just because it says guide doesn't make it sticky worthy.  A lot of incorrect information given, and this will now cause more bad specced new tanks.

@Garun

Imp Taunt still has a lot of value.  Taunt has a 17% chance to miss as it is a spell.  With imp taunt you can counter the resisted taunt by using mocking blow and taunt will be available again PRIOR to mocking blow falling off to prevent the boss/mob turning off.  In the event of a double taunt resist, challenging shout and taunt is available again before that falls off as well.

Impale vs 8/5/38 spec is about a 3% to 4% dps difference depending on buffs.  Not not a 4% threat difference, just damage. The difference in threat is much smaller. When rage gains were broken and you spammed Heroic Strike with a 1.3 speed, impale was much better.  That is no longer the case.  It is much better to spec with all your def/mitigation talents in the prot tree and use more hit/agil/crit gear as needed on a situational bases.

[Undertanker 88]

This guy takes no points in parry...  I closed the vid once we started talking about his gear.  So much is wrong. I'll do a further breakdown of the bad information provided when I have time tonight.  Gonna be a lot.

[Snide 7]

You just don't really think about what you're doing. Less parry is more rage=more threat=more healing so your healers look better on Realmplayers. You're objectively 'wrong' if you're trying to max TPS. 

[Garun 9]

1 hour ago, Snide said:

I hope you're being silly. When a boss encounter lasts 20 seconds starting with 100 rage is ideal. Anger management is the best prot talent in the game period. It's extra rage on boss fights, in fact around ~100 if you do it right like in my raid streams. You can do as you please but you're gimping your threat. The rest is just nonsense. Toughness decreases your threat/second, more rage=less rage. Best of luck in however you want to do it but I'd double you on KTM.

I'm going to call bullshit on this. There is no encounter that lasts only 20 seconds without being extremely overgeared on Elysium. For drunk farm, just get hit capped and if that still doesn't work, put on some dps pieces with decent stam. Horde tanks (where we don't have paladins with salv) manage to do just fine with +5% parry. Also why the hell would you use Alcors when rage is limited? Ironfoe is miles better.

[TheRealJindo 1]

Make a guide, plebs comment because it's anti-mainstream. Had the same thing happen to my priest guides, people are clueless

[Garun 9]

7 minutes ago, TheRealJindo said:

Make a guide, plebs comment because it's anti-mainstream. Had the same thing happen to my priest guides, people are clueless

There are some good ideas in there like having points in Unbridled Wrath, but most of it is complete bullshit.

[Snide 7]

10 minutes ago, TheRealJindo said:

Make a guide, plebs comment because it's anti-mainstream. Had the same thing happen to my priest guides, people are clueless

It's almost like they haven't bothered to think or learn something new in the decade since classic WoW is out. Better copy what people did when it was a serious question if clicking or not was the way to go for optimal play! 

[Snide 7]

35 minutes ago, Garun said:

I'm going to call bullshit on this. There is no encounter that lasts only 20 seconds without being extremely overgeared on Elysium. For drunk farm, just get hit capped and if that still doesn't work, put on some dps pieces with decent stam. Horde tanks (where we don't have paladins with salv) manage to do just fine with +5% parry. Also why the hell would you use Alcors when rage is limited? Ironfoe is miles better.

Your tanks aren't having issues because fights aren't lasting 20 seconds. Go look at Realmplayers on Elysium and see what the top guilds are doing to bosses. This guide isn't directed at people struggling to clear content, this guide is for FARMING, SPEEDRUNS, and REALMPLAYERS pushing. Not progressing or trying to down the boss. if at any point your DPS ever need to 'hold back' you've failed as a tank because people are LOSING dps spots on Realmplayers over your threat. 

[Jeetee 2]

It's a max tps guide for flexing epeens.  It's fine for what it is.

[Undertanker 88]

Your weapon choice for TPS is incorrect.   This is also counter-productive to your trinket choice of HoJ.  Your white hit damage is very low using a 1.3 speed making the extra swing much less beneficial.  A DMC: Maelstrom with it's bad proc rate here would still be better.  A Diamond Flask for 75 Str for 1 minute would be far better, and while Diamond Flask is on cooldown swap to Blackhand's Breadth.  For Mark of the Chosen, for threat in mind, this is too much RNG for 1.25 crit, 50 AP (unbuffed) you'll notice that it doesn't even go off during your AoE tanking and boss pull.  Blackhand's Breadth 100% uptime will be more reliable.  Not sure if DMC and Flask are available to you yet.

In your tank video for Luci you are tanking a mob (the boss in this instance) that is being DPS last!.   There is no reason to be using threat gear on that pull if you are not tanking the primary kill target.  You need to adjust your set-up per pull, and not take unnecessary damage putting additional stress on your healers.  This adds to more heals needed, more mana used, more down time.  Nobody was going to get close to threat yet you burn a rage pot.  You'd be better off saving that one or if you felt compelled enough to burn your cooldown, a health potion/restro pot would have been ideal for your situation.  Tanking is 3 parts.  Threat / Positioning / Limiting Incoming Damage.   This is critical to all inspiring tanks to understand.  

You are also prioritizing your rage on Heroic Strike over Sunder armor and leaving small windows of having to wait for rage for revenge / shield slam due to this.  Stop this.  Changing your tanking weapon to a much slower swing timer should help you with this transition and your average Attack Power will be much higher due to the adjustment proc rate of Crusader from based weapon speed.

Also be sure your pally is always in range of Ret Aura.  Also your warlock needs to ensure Fire-Shield is always on you.

Parry reduces your swing timer, increasing rage gains = more threat abilities possible.

Your advise on anticipation for 5 man spec is backwards.  +Armor in 5 mans will be more beneficial than +Def.  For a tank that is just starting to gear up, imp revenge would be the key talent to take as most of 5 mans is fighting trash and the stun will help with rage starved multi Mob Tanking.

 

PS:   Molten Core is not end-game.

[Snide 7]

My weapon choice is ideal because most boss fights are super short and I spend the majority of my time spamming heroics. I already said in the video I didn't play the Luci fight perfectly which is why I picked it instead of one that I thought I didn't mess up in. HOJ and other flat procs scale really well with super fast attacking weapons, DMC: Maelstrom isn't out on Elysium but when it is (I think BWL?) I would use that over a HOJ. Raw AP doesn't really help your threat as much as a HOJ would, because I'm using a retardedly fast weapon I actually get a lot of procs out. Same thing with crusader, PPM doesn't work on private servers it's all flat procs (Like UW). 

 

While BB is more reliable than mark of the chosen, Chosen is also a lot strong when it's up. When you're doing speed chain pulls your overall damage throughout the entire instance matters more than any specific boss, which is why I use it. Overall it will outperform any trinket until some later BWL+ options.

 

You don't understand the concept of pushing Realmplayers, I want to stress my healers and make them HEAL more so they get HIGHER scores on Realmplayers. It isn't if I should or not, it's that if someone else DOES the healers are LOSING on Realmplayers. This isn't about reducing the already easily healing, it's about increasing it intentionally.

 

When I know threat is established I heroic strike over sunder most of the time. The boss won't live long enough to worry about reapplying it after five stacks, and more dps=faster kill=better realmplayers score. You need to start looking at the game from a Realmplayers point of view not an optimal beating 12 year old content point of view. Even with a full TPS setup if your healers are skilled and popping all mana consumables on CD's it is easy to manage chainpulls in MC. 

 

I think I had too many buffs in the video so the fire shield (like my oils of Immo) didn't show or got knocked off. The paladin being out of position is his bad but it's not the end of the world, I have a lot of return damage so it's really hard to notice when I'm missing bits and pieces here or there. 

[Undertanker 88]

1 hour ago, Snide said:

HOJ and other flat procs scale really well with super fast attacking weapons

They scale better with slower weapons than faster ones.

AP is not as important of a stat to tanks as it is to pure DPS, as you have no instant attacks that scale from it.  You only have your white hit / heroic strike.  Revenge / Shield Slam / Sunder are your primary threat ability and do not scale with it.  Your base threat from heroic strike will not change and getting 3 more damage out of it does not make justify taking it over BB which will fuel your shield slam damage, revenge damage, white hit damage and heroic strike damage.  It's a better return.

On a 20 second fight you get 15 auto attacks on Alcorz, 3 revenge hits @ 2% proc rate you'll get very little return on investment for hoping to get 1 proc for 130-300 damage.  There are MANY click to use trinkets that do more damage than that which you could activate on the start of the pull, do more damage and threat and give you the threat when you need it, at the start.

 

1 hour ago, Snide said:

You don't understand the concept of pushing Realmplayers

Limiting the heals needed = less healers needed = less heal sniping.   More dps slots in raid = "pushing Realmplayers"' and healers can also do some direct damage as well.  This is where the use of restorative potion should have been used over a rage pot when you had threat.  Your druids / mages / pally are spamming dispell and decurse rather than damage / healing.  But please explain to me more about how to increase realmplayer numbers.

1 hour ago, Snide said:

You need to start looking at the game from a Realmplayers point of view

Annihilator

1 hour ago, Snide said:

I think I had too many buffs

You should be clicking off Spirit, Int.  You argue stress the healers but limit another debuff slot with troll potion, and in your talent build you don't value toughness but you use a 240 armor potion.  Again going against what you preach about "pushing realmplayers for healers".  This all was a huge DPS/Threat loss not having fire shield / ret, both of which do more damage than crystal spire, though should be paired with it, not in replace of as I know that was your intent.

I'd recommend also picking up engineering for Sapper Charges/grenades depending on the pulls and mandating your raid, especially melee DPS to do the same to "push realmplayers".   Also be sure you are keeping "Ancient Conernstone Grimoire" on hand and anybody else who wins one to "push realmplayers".

I'd also recommend putting +4 all stats on your chest over 100 hp. It's overall better and scales with buffs.

1 hour ago, Snide said:

Same thing with crusader, PPM doesn't work on private servers it's all flat procs (Like UW). 

Most weapon enchants and certain trinkets are not a flat proc rate like you state.   These are adjusted based on your "based-weapon speed", very important there, as increased speed (flurry, Juju) doesn't change the proc rate.  Crusader is a 1PPM, Fiery Weapon and Lifestealing are an 8PPM.  The difference compared to later expansions is they don't have internal global cooldowns limiting their proc rate within a set amount of time.  Certain items for Force Reactive Disk does (1 second).

The PPM is determined by your auto attack only in 1 minute based on weapon speed.

Alcorz for example: 

1.3 Speed - 46 attacks in 1 minute.  1PPM grants a proc rate of 2.17%.  40 Global Cooldowns possible in 1 minute.  86 total.

On average you should have 1.8 procs in 1 minute.  Assuming no overlap of buff, you'll get on average 27 seconds of the buff = 45 % uptime.

200 AP @ 45% uptime = an average of 90 AP.

Deathbringer for example:

2.9 speed - 20 attacks in 1 minute. 1PPM grants a proc rate of 5%. 40 GLobal Cooldowns possible in 1 minute. 60 total.

On average you should have 3 procs in 1 minute. Assuming no overlap of buff, you'll get on average 45 seconds of the buff = 75% uptime.

200 AP @ 75% uptime = an average of 150 AP.

Crusader is 66.6% more beneficial on Deathbringer than Alcorz.

[Snide 7]

I'm not going to go through and nitpick all that much, but there's only 8 debuff slots on Elysium and a number of other factors. All of our raid virtually has sappers, I'm using them and have them hotkeyed in the video. There haven't been enough Cornerstones yet for me to get one but eventually everyone will have one along with dog whistles for Ragnaros etc. PPM doesn't work on private servers, look at the code which is available and most things are just flat percents. That's another reason why I believe Alcors is underrated. You're posting retail knowledge that just isn't accurate for Mangos.

You also keep talking about items and trinkets which aren't available on Elysium. HOJ generates extra rage from additional procs, and while yes it doesn't proc from every single boss it still is the BIS trinket for threat with the currently available gear. Sometimes it's worse than a Rammstien's lightning bolts or whatever else random crap you'd use, but most of the time it'd be superior. 

You can see Luci getting smited by our priests in the video, if you're paying that much attention to it at least notice those things or look at our realmplayers logs.

As I said I can't always control if I have fire shield/ret aura, I obviously want them and it's not my fault directly if they aren't kept up on me. The armor pot is simply because it's not proper to not use every possible consumable or buff at your disposal. 

In this current tier you're going to need 10 healers to do things like Garr without adds, tanks are a lot squishier in 1.4 and I can't even tank all 8 with a fully defensive setup and imp sw without dying. Could a healer skill issue but I haven't seen any guild on Elysium pull it off without risk. 

 

As I said in the video, vanilla WoW has an infinite skill cap and you could always do something better. Anyone can analyze a video and make 1,000 adjustments to improve just a single person's play, not even an entire raid. That doesn't really change what I outlined in the guild or the major themes of it.

 

The 4 stats comment I agree with, but then I won't hit 5 digits of HP. Next patch/tier! Also I use the savage glad in my actual migitaton/def cap sets so it's a net loss for those. There's no reason I shouldn't have farmed two of them though, Elysium has been out what 3 months now?!

[Zarant 2]

This is a 10 year old game but most of the guides out there are based on pure conjecture. I guess this guide serve its purpose, which is generating threat on super short encounters, I'd never play like that in BWL or AQ though.

[gamemechanic 0]

On ‎07‎-‎05‎-‎2017 at 7:31 PM, Snide said:

You just don't really think about what you're doing. Less parry is more rage=more threat=more healing so your healers look better on Realmplayers. You're objectively 'wrong' if you're trying to max TPS. 

Its worth mentioning that parry is the best avoidance mechanic for TPS.

I cant agree on your lack of points in Toughness. I checked with the treat formula and i would personally have to lower my armor with about 14,2% before i gain 1 more ragepoint for each unmitigated hit.

[gamemechanic 0]

17 hours ago, Snide said:

PPM doesn't work on private servers it's all flat procs (Like UW). 

....

PPM doesn't work on private servers, look at the code which is available and most things are just flat percents. That's another reason why I believe Alcors is underrated. You're posting retail knowledge that just isn't accurate for Mangos.

PPM does work and is implemented in the function CastItemCombatSpell in src/game/Objects/Player.cpp

A max tps guide is a very nice idea, but it fails when its based on presumptions instead of documented gamemechanics.

[Garun 9]

4 minutes ago, gamemechanic said:

PPM does work and is implemented in the function CastItemCombatSpell in src/game/Objects/Player.cpp

A max tps guide is a very nice idea, but it fails when its based on presumptions instead of documented gamemechanics.

I just skimmed over the video and just ignored it when he said Alcor's is BiS for threat for MC. That is complete bullshit as I have maintanked the first half of MC on the first guild raid (in pre-BiS gear) and I don't think I even used heroic strike ONCE. Alcor's is only good if you can spam it. Hell, he even states in the beginning that you need a start attack macro because of a rage shortage. Slower weapons are better if there are extra attack procs, which mainly affects the Horde, but it also has somewhat of an effect on the Alliance with trinkets like Hand of Justice and Ironfoe, which is WAY better than Alcor's. Hell, even Quel is better than Alcor's for threat due to the higher weapon dps alone, and that's not even a threat weapon.

[gamemechanic 0]

You might want to chill a bit about praising your guilds rank 14 players.

I admire any player that perfects his playstyle and pushes hard to be in the topbracket... But not if it involves any form of exploitation.

[Knife 2]

Thanks for the video

~Enthusiast alt tank

[Storfan 24]

10 hours ago, gamemechanic said:

Its worth mentioning that parry is the best avoidance mechanic for TPS.

I cant agree on your lack of points in Toughness. I checked with the treat formula and i would personally have to lower my armor with about 14,2% before i gain 1 more ragepoint for each unmitigated hit.

Does parry-haste beat rage generated from blocks though? Maybe it does, I havnt actually tested that myself.

9 hours ago, Garun said:

I just skimmed over the video and just ignored it when he said Alcor's is BiS for threat for MC. That is complete bullshit as I have maintanked the first half of MC on the first guild raid (in pre-BiS gear) and I don't think I even used heroic strike ONCE. Alcor's is only good if you can spam it. Hell, he even states in the beginning that you need a start attack macro because of a rage shortage. Slower weapons are better if there are extra attack procs, which mainly affects the Horde, but it also has somewhat of an effect on the Alliance with trinkets like Hand of Justice and Ironfoe, which is WAY better than Alcor's. Hell, even Quel is better than Alcor's for threat due to the higher weapon dps alone, and that's not even a threat weapon.

Yeah I dont use HS very much anymore either for tanking in MC, although Ironfoe combined with WF totem probably allows me to use it more often than any alliance without WF and with an Alcors. I suppose him using quite alot of threat pieces, in combination with no def/armor talents will allow him to take more damage and thus get more rage to sustain his heroic strikes (to some degree).

 

Also, this type of gearing, playstyle and talents wont work very well on most BWL bosses. Damage is simply too much to handle.

[Ragward 2]

this

4 hours ago, Storfan said:

Does parry-haste beat rage generated from blocks though? Maybe it does, I havnt actually tested that myself.

Yeah I dont use HS very much anymore either for tanking in MC, although Ironfoe combined with WF totem probably allows me to use it more often than any alliance without WF and with an Alcors. I suppose him using quite alot of threat pieces, in combination with no def/armor talents will allow him to take more damage and thus get more rage to sustain his heroic strikes (to some degree).

 

Also, this type of gearing, playstyle and talents wont work very well on most BWL bosses. Damage is simply too much to handle.

 

[Snide 7]

5 hours ago, Storfan said:

Also, this type of gearing, playstyle and talents wont work very well on most BWL bosses. Damage is simply too much to handle.

Some bosses you'd use a defense set, certainly not all. It doesn't even work on everything in MC (Garr/Sulph adds). I also will have around ~13k hp when I'm tanking in BWL for this type of style.