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Superbilly

Player harassment and how to resolve it?

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Greetings,

Last night we had 2 alliance players in particular abuse the ticket system because they died in WPvP. Their forum names are <snip>

Our guild <NOTHING PERSONAL> raided Darkshire last night to provide a fun experience for all. We also stream during our events to spark interest in Elysium because we truly enjoy this server.

Our guild was accused of the following: safe spotting (which did not occur)

Safespotting is prohibited under all circumstances. This is the act of engaging in PvP combat while exploiting a position that cannot be reached with basic jumping (no wall-climbing), or engaging enemy players while being in an advantageous position where guards cannot reach you due to pathing, line of sight, or any other game mechanic. [...] Engaging players through various world terrain, such as roofs that is otherwise not accessible to gain an advantage.

1. that roof is accessible and no different than jumping on top of a boulder

2. the players mentioned (hashtagfeels and rubber egg) are lying - the guards attacked us as usual

3. alliance also easily reached us and killed us after a fun fight

4. Rubber Egg actually went above and beyond lying, they came to discord to start a witch hunt in multiple channels

This kind of toxic behavior (crying for bans) on the forums, ticket system, and discord is what will drive people away from Elysium. Any input from someone like a GM or Dev would be appreciated.

 

~Bobafat

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Standing on a roof in town killing people? is Literally in the definition of safe spotting.

If the guards can't get to you? you're safe spotting. 

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You didn't read the post at all. I even included the definition of safe spotting. The guards path up there nothing we did meets the criteria of safe spotting.

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=) 

on the roof in darkshire, the guards cannot reach you. 

by being on the roof in darkshire, where the guards cannot reach you? you are safespotting. 

this is against the rules here sir or madam. despite any desire you may feel for it to be otherwise.

 

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Incorrect.

The guards path to the roof we died to them and alliance at one point. Our guild would simply appreciate an answer from a GM or Dev because we don't exploit or cheat. We are enjoying the battles that revolve around Darkshire like everyone else.

 

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Hello, roofs are really tricky when it comes to safe spotting. I can't give you a 100% answer without seeing videos or screenshots of how this went down, but I believe our stated rule is pretty straightforward. If it is a roof that is easily accessible, it is not considered safe spotting. If the only way to get up is wall climbing or complicated jumping (landing a number of very specific jumps that can be difficult to accomplish), that could be considered safe spotting. For example, the farm roof in AB is easily accessible, and not considered safe spotting. But other roofs in AB are. In this specific situation, more information is needed. There are multiple roofs that both easy and difficult to access in Darkshire. This would be the main qualifier if this was considered safe spotting or not.

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14 hours ago, Toradh said:

Sounds like Nothing Personal is in the right, I'll admit those first couple threads by alliance put you guys in a bad light but this thread clears it up. Naeras you're coming off like an immature child in the way you post here. That's not the way to get people on your side.

 

Did you even take the time to read the OP?

 

Ok apparently not...

This is what I mean when I say people aren't gonna side with you, make a proper argument with screenshots and video if you have a problem, jeez


OP _Says_ the guards path up to the roof. my experience says that there are few places, if any where guards can get onto a roof.

also in my experience, specifically the roofs in darkshire? are unreachable by the guards.

Your perspective that i'm trying to win people to "my side" is not relevant. I'm stating a fact, not making an impassioned argument to prove a point of contention.


Love you cupcake. 

edit for: 

And in fact, i just wandered over to darkshire and tested it. the guards are completely not blizlike, and teleport up through the floor onto the roof of the easy jump by the flightpath. so in this case i'm wrong. 

RIP my feels.

still love you cupcake!

 

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9 hours ago, Hamblin said:

Hello, roofs are really tricky when it comes to safe spotting. I can't give you a 100% answer without seeing videos or screenshots of how this went down, but I believe our stated rule is pretty straightforward. If it is a roof that is easily accessible, it is not considered safe spotting. If the only way to get up is wall climbing or complicated jumping (landing a number of very specific jumps that can be difficult to accomplish), that could be considered safe spotting. For example, the farm roof in AB is easily accessible, and not considered safe spotting. But other roofs in AB are. In this specific situation, more information is needed. There are multiple roofs that both easy and difficult to access in Darkshire. This would be the main qualifier if this was considered safe spotting or not.

Hey Hamblin thank you for the response! To clarify what happened:

1. the roof is directly opposite the flight path and easily accessible with a single jump which does not require wall climbing

2. Horde and Alliance both fought each other up there

3. Guards all pathed up top and attacked us

Horde + Alliance have enjoyed WPvP fighting over that roof for nearly 13 years so hopefully we can continue to do so.

Cheers,

Bobafat

 

 

 

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You can only easily reach those roofs with a mount if i recall. So engaging in world pvp primarily against people without mounts (as is the common case for alliance in Darkshire), you are in fact safespotting against them. Or so it would seem to me, even if in theory or practice the guards can reach you in some cases.

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22 minutes ago, Pwnana said:

You can only easily reach those roofs with a mount if i recall. So engaging in world pvp primarily against people without mounts (as is the common case for alliance in Darkshire), you are in fact safespotting against them. Or so it would seem to me, even if in theory or practice the guards can reach you in some cases.

Why would a low level want to be on the roof anyway? You would die instantly.

If the point was just to grief lowbies we would run into the middle of town and farm them. People fight in Darkshire because the lowbies scream for higher levels from Stormwind and then Alliance + Horde play King of The Hill on that roof.

Alliance have no issues retaliating when Horde are on that roof and vice/versa which I think is the real point to all of this.

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Last month I was banned for a full day for "safe spotting" in Booty Bay.  There are several places in and around the tavern that do not require any special tricks to get to where you can attack someone passing by and there are simply no guards within range to see what you're doing.  It's really that simple. The guards can't see you.  After attacking someone, the guards WILL become hostile and WILL attack you if you move within their range.  In some cases, you only need to move 1 yard from your "safe spot" to get attacked; and it does happen frequently.  It sounds like the roof in Darkshire fits the same description.   Just like the safe spots in BB, you don't have to do anything special to get up on the roof in Darkshire, but there is a spot or area on the roof where the guards can't see you and therefore will not aggro you even if you shoot someone on the ground.  The guards will still be hostile to you after you attack someone, and will attack you if you move within their sight/agro range.  If you wait until they become friendly or neutral again, about 30 seconds, then you can move about freely again until you attack someone again. 

I believe "safe spots" are part of the Vanilla experience for casual world PVPers and I wish we could continue doing it without repercussion, but I haven't dared do it since I was banned.  I tried reasoning with the admins on the forums but they would not listen.  The GM's/admins of Elysium have made up their minds about these "safe spots".  The way they see it is; If you're in a town, you should not be allowed to kill anyone and get away with it.

Of course, this is completely unfair because I don't know of any rogues, hunters or paladins that got banned for killing someone in a town and then vanishing, feigning death or bubble hearthing.  

The proper solution would be to either put guards in range of the "safe spots" or just let the game mechanics do their thing as they have done for the past 12 years.  Blizzard never banned me for "safe spotting" and I did it regularly in retail.  Banning people for Pvping on a PVP server is over the top.  If someone is killing you or your friends, call for help or go somewhere else.  Heck, come on the forum and wine about it, but nothing should be done about it.  This is why the saying "QQ PVP SERVER" was coined in the first place.

In fact, how I ended up "safe spotting" in the first place was I had seen several alliance doing it to the poor Hordelings in Booty Bay, in large groups, daily, so I decided to exact revenge on them.  Many players continue to safe spot on a regular basis without being reported.  If they were all reported, the admins/GM's would have a full time job.  The fact that I got banned for this is both ironic and toxic in and of itself.

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13 minutes ago, piastoax said:

I believe "safe spots" are part of the Vanilla experience for casual world PVPers and I wish we could continue doing it without repercussion, but I haven't dared do it since I was banned.  I tried reasoning with the admins on the forums but they would not listen.  The GM's/admins of Elysium have made up their minds about these "safe spots".  The way they see it is; If you're in a town, you should not be allowed to kill anyone and get away with it.

It seems they have made it quite clear to you what the rule is, you just don't agree with it.  Neutral cities are meant to be to have instant repercussions for attacking the opposing faction and doing anything location wise to circumvent that is safe spotting and against the rules.

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Rogues, hunters and paladins can attack the opposing faction and circumvent the instant repercussions from any location.  This fits into the category of "guards cannot reach you due to game mechanic".  Yet those people don't get banned.  Cherry picking who gets banned for killing players on a PVP server is toxic to the PVP community.

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Paladins are not a relevant example.  In the case of rogues and hunters those are limited by cooldowns and opposing players can counter them easily.  There is no counter to safe spotting except to safe spot yourself which is not acceptable.  Enforcing rules is not toxic to the community.  It's toxic to cheaters which is working as intended.

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1 hour ago, Hurricane2 said:

Paladins are not a relevant example.

 

Why, because you said so?

 

1 hour ago, Hurricane2 said:

In the case of rogues and hunters those are limited by cooldowns

 

This doesn't change the fact that it's still considered safe spotting by the rules own definition, since cooldowns are "any other game mechanic" being used to avoid guards getting to you.

 

1 hour ago, Hurricane2 said:

opposing players can counter them easily.  There is no counter to safe spotting

 

You just contradicted yourself.

 

1 hour ago, Hurricane2 said:

Enforcing rules is not toxic to the community.  It's toxic to cheaters which is working as intended.

 

I never said enforcing rules is toxic.  Bending them is, though.  Safe spotting isn't some rare occurrence that only a few players experience once in a while.  It happens on a continuous basis and apparently some classes are allowed to do it (i.e. bend the rules).  Regardless of what the definition is of safe spotting is, standing in a place and attacking someone and not dying is not being a cheater ; there is no unfair advantage gained over the other player by standing in a spot that is easily accessible by the opposing player, no special techniques needed that the opposing player cannot use themselves and no external programs or exploits required.  It's simply killing players on a PVP server while not in view of guards.  The guards can path to those locations just fine, there just aren't any in range.  The window is small enough;  one wrong step and you're dead meat and you lose durability. If killing players in neutral cities without dying yourself should not be allowed at all, then major changes would need to be made to the game. 

Randomly banning people for this and allowing certain classes to continue doing it is toxic to the World PVP community.  Guards can be moved or added to encompass these "safe spots". Blizzard did it. The devs can, too, if they believe it's that much of a problem.  But if they keep banning people who enjoy sneaky World PVP ; ganking , corpse camping , forming raids and attacking towns, eventually there won't be much of a PVP community left aside from people standing outside Org/Stormwind dueling. 

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I did not contradict myself.  I stated that players can easily counter a player that uses cool downs to avoid guard aggro in areas that are not safe spotting areas.  You misquoted me for whatever reason and try to make it look like I'm talking about something else.  So I'll state it again, in one sentence.  Players that are not safe spotting that use cool downs to escape guard aggro are easily countered and players that are safe spotting can only be countered by likewise breaking the rules which is inherently stupid.

The manner in which you say paladins are safe spotting however is a contradiction and me saying it was an irrelevant example was being generous.  It's a dumb and pointless example.  Not only does bubble hearthing require you to avoid attacking anything since it would cancel the port but it makes you leave the city.

"standing in a place and attacking someone and not dying is not being a cheater"  If you're safe spotting then yes it is.

The enforcement is not random as you've seen yourself with the warning you've received.  None of the actions mentioned in your final paragraph are against the rules or get people banned so I'm not sure why you brought those up saying they prevent world PvP.  Getting dishonorable kills on civilians would but that is not what you were referring to.

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39 minutes ago, Hurricane2 said:

I stated that players can easily counter a player that uses cool downs to avoid guard aggro in areas that are not safe spotting areas.  

Can you give an example of this? Because I can't think of one way that someone could "counter" a rogue vanishing to avoid guard aggro in a neutral town.  As soon as someone casts any ability or spell on the rogue, which would have to be before the rogue vanishes or attempts to vanish, the guards will instantly kill them.

42 minutes ago, Hurricane2 said:

players that are safe spotting can only be countered by likewise breaking the rules which is inherently stupid.

The rule itself is inherently stupid because it deters people from doing what they were allowed to do in Vanilla.  Countering someone in World PVP by giving them a taste of their own medicine doesn't sound stupid to me.  Some people find it gratifying to gank gankers. It's part of the Vanilla experience.  I'm not talking about the hard to get spots I'm talking about the easy ones.

Certain instances of what is considered safe spotting are ridiculous and unreasonable to the point where there are many players who have absolutely no clue that they are even safe spotting.  A bunch of Horde who got ganked into oblivion get together and raid a town, and so they all jump on the roof (which is easily accessible) and taunt and torment the inhabitants.  So .... the inhabitants start crying and whining about it and so the Horde gankees are the ones to be banned from the game? That's absolutely absurd.

Another example is attacking someone on the second floor of the inn in Booty Bay. It's just a place in the inn. If I decide I want to kill someone who is PVP flagged because I don't like their name or maybe they ganked one of my alts. It's not some special roof that you had to point your camera in a specific direction and jump at a certain angle. It's literally just a place inside the tavern.  If I can get banned for killing someone there, then why would a Paladin not be banned for killing someone and then bubble hearthing out if a ticket is opened?  Or a rogue be banned for killing someone and vanishing if someone is upset they got killed?  To me, there is absolutely no difference.  Should people be banned from being on the second floor of the inn all together?  The rule is too ambiguous and ultimately people are getting banned for killing players on a PVP server, which kills World PVP. 

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There is nothing wrong with ganking in BB as a whole. Or ganking inside of an alliance town from the roof. Gank early and gank often.  BUT safespots are not part of the Vanilla experience. 

There is a video (on youtube?) from the retail TBC era where a player got mysteriously ported from the ganking safespot where guards don't attack to the ground where he took the 10% durability penalty from the guards. The player returned to the safespot to gank again and got mysteriously ported again to be killed by the guards. The player is now thinking WTF. Then a GM started whispering the player. It doesn't matter if the safespot is easy or difficult to reach. The Booty Bay example in this thread had a blizzlike response with the temporary ban. But I think the lesson would be better if the GM had the opportunity to port the player to the BB guards a couple of times.  

As long as you can be killed by all guards within aggro range  from the spot you are standing, it's all good. If you can gank a player, the guard standing next to the player needs to have the ability to come up and kill you. Vanish, bubblehearth, etc to evade the guards is perfectly fine. But if the guards within aggro range know you need to be killed but you stand in the same spot doing nothing to evade, it's a safespot/exploit, you kjnow it, and you know you deserve a ban.

 

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With the roof incident in this thread, was it safer to be on the roof than on the ground next to the roof or the ground under the roof? Can any player jump up to the roof easily without special gymnastics or a mount? If no on both, then I think it's fine. Can somebody from NOTHING PERSONAL willing to talk let us know of the result? I'm also ok if you want to keep it private to yourselves and don't say anything.

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I disagree with you on all points. I spent many hours in vanilla ganking and ganking gankers in friendly, enemy and neutral towns and in my 12 years of playing this game I never received a single warning or ban for it until Elysium. In retail Bliz just added guards where needed and didn't go about randomly banning people for having fun. And when I say randomly I mean only when some cry baby opens a ticket because they got killed in a PVP zone by someone who was just crafty and not cheating in any way.

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4 hours ago, fivealts said:

With the roof incident in this thread, was it safer to be on the roof than on the ground next to the roof or the ground under the roof? Can any player jump up to the roof easily without special gymnastics or a mount? If no on both, then I think it's fine. Can somebody from NOTHING PERSONAL willing to talk let us know of the result? I'm also ok if you want to keep it private to yourselves and don't say anything.

Hey it's all good no need to keep anything private we play by the rules.

For example: we tell people not to abuse the area above the gates to Stormwind because the guards don't path there properly. 

Cheers,

Bobafat <NOTHING PERSONAL>

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On 5/21/2017 at 10:06 AM, Superbilly said:

Hey Hamblin thank you for the response! To clarify what happened:

1. the roof is directly opposite the flight path and easily accessible with a single jump which does not require wall climbing

2. Horde and Alliance both fought each other up there

3. Guards all pathed up top and attacked us

Horde + Alliance have enjoyed WPvP fighting over that roof for nearly 13 years so hopefully we can continue to do so.

Cheers,

Bobafat

 

 

 

Honestly I don't see the outrage here, a blind person could find their way up on that roof because it's so simple and easy to get on top of.

The whole idea of safespotting for instance is like the cliff outside of Kargath near the FP where it takes multiple difficult jumps to get on top, a huntard can kill people who land with their max range and if attacked run away. Then if someone tries to get up to him the hunter can easily kill them before they even have a chance to make a series of difficult jumps.

Not rocket science, just sounds like some literal social justice warrior cancer trying to find any reason to get people banned. Screw them.

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On 26.5.2017 at 6:57 PM, Hurricane2 said:

It seems they have made it quite clear to you what the rule is, you just don't agree with it.  Neutral cities are meant to be to have instant repercussions for attacking the opposing faction and doing anything location wise to circumvent that is safe spotting and against the rules.

Is the light hopes chapel standing outside of guards range safe spotting too then? That is the exact same thing that happens at the FP in gadgetzan and areas in BB. The guards just dont care because you are out of their guarding area.

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5 hours ago, ismeckye said:

Is the light hopes chapel standing outside of guards range safe spotting too then? That is the exact same thing that happens at the FP in gadgetzan and areas in BB. The guards just dont care because you are out of their guarding area.

No, staying out of guards' range is fine. 

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Use ignore. Welcome to the internet. No ones here to hold your hand. There is no safe space for your sensitivities, OP.

Alternatively, if they're bring the TOU somehow, report them with a ticket.

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