We may lose Multiple ranks of the same Judgement mechanic

[Hudson 16]

So, you're saying that a very obvious tactic to more than double the healing done by Judgement of Light was never recorded at all in the thousands of videos on YouTube? Even in the fights where heavy melee healing would have been massively beneficial?

Maybe take a step back from your fervor and ask yourself whether it's more likely that this is a bugged spell on Elysium, or that something so obvious was only mentioned in passing one time on a forum, and never seen in any video ever? I appreciate that you are passionate about the paladin class, but you should really make the mental effort to look at class issues more objectively.

[killerduki 54]

13 minutes ago, Hudson said:

So, you're saying that a very obvious tactic to more than double the healing done by Judgement of Light was never recorded at all in the thousands of videos on YouTube? Even in the fights where heavy melee healing would have been massively beneficial?

Maybe take a step back from your fervor and ask yourself whether it's more likely that this is a bugged spell on Elysium, or that something so obvious was only mentioned in passing one time on a forum, and never seen in any video ever? I appreciate that you are passionate about the paladin class, but you should really make the mental effort to look at class issues more objectively.

Because it is explained in details how it's been working correctly in the forum post, doesn't mean that it require Video or perhaps doesn't mean that anyone gave any cent about it!.

There are thousands of evidence from Text or Forum post accepted in this fucking server without any Video evidence.

Coming to the point of denying everything in regard to evidence from 2005 only because of "Self believes" is not only unprofessional but also retarded.

Coefficients regarding Spells are taken out of Forum Posters or Wowwiki with many confusions and no confirmations.

Why don't you fucking ask for Video evidence in regard to that ?!.

Because of Logic .

/Kind regards Killerduki

[Patchi 4]

Oh, the post 2 posts under the one you keep linking as evidence, is even the same fking person that said they did stack, so he's going back on his initial statement. 

I can't wrap my head around your though process. But @hudson is right, you really really need to be more objective about bugs in the game. Especially those regarding the pally class.

[killerduki 54]

@Hudson @Phoosy

Why are you not asking this person for Video evidence of his claim ?!!!!!

What he provide is just Forum poster from the same Website and Wowpedia (copy/paste from wowwiki)

https://github.com/elysium-project/server/pull/447

Double standards .....

/Kind regards Killerduki

 

[Hudson 16]

13 minutes ago, killerduki said:

@Hudson @Phoosy

Why are you not asking this person for Video evidence of his claim ?!!!!!

What he provide is just Forum poster from the same Website and Wowpedia (copy/paste from wowwiki)

https://github.com/elysium-project/server/pull/447

Double standards .....

/Kind regards Killerduki

 

If you can't figure out why some claims would be more easily corroborated by video evidence than others, then there is no point to me participating in this thread any longer. (Poorly) attempting to discredit other bug reports does not lend credence to your own. Please feel free to submit more evidence specifically supporting your claims via GitHub when your ban expires.

[Guybrush 11]

6 minutes ago, killerduki said:

@Hudson @Phoosy

Why are you not asking this person for Video evidence of his claim ?!!!!!

What he provide is just Forum poster from the same Website and Wowpedia (copy/paste from wowwiki)

https://github.com/elysium-project/server/pull/447

Double standards .....

/Kind regards Killerduki

 

Those values were confirmed with the 1.12 theorycraft addon source code, which tested and validated those values back in the day

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, killerduki said:

@Hudson @Phoosy

Why are you not asking this person for Video evidence of his claim ?!!!!!

What he provide is just Forum poster from the same Website and Wowpedia (copy/paste from wowwiki)

https://github.com/elysium-project/server/pull/447

Double standards .....

/Kind regards Killerduki

 

Because Guybrush is a Github contributor that not only referenced three(!) different sources (one of which was an older add-on) but was able to verify in a video that the coefficient calculations for at least one of the spells were accurate. Ontop of all that, the sources given provide mathematical values that can be replicated/reproduced by referencing other video content for usage of those spells - I'm fairly confident in Guybrush and our QA team to have gone through the QA process to verify the numbers were accurate to what they should be once the changes were merged into their development branch, since that is a part of the QA process - a member of our QA team can elaborate on that more.

See how that differs from a single forum post that's not corroborated anywhere else? No guides make mention of this function, no videos demonstrate this, no one else has proposed anything that corroborates the proposal in any way.

[kingRat 1]

Just now, killerduki said:

Coefficients regarding Spells are taken out of Forum Posters or Wowwiki with many confusions and no confirmations.

Why don't you fucking ask for Video evidence in regard to that ?!.

Because of Logic .

/Kind regards Killerduki

Don't try to change the topic of the discussion, you're trying to prove x works in the way y, it's not a rational argument to bring in z which has nothing to do with the original statement (judgements stacking).

If you have more proof on judgements stacking per individual rank as a debuff via video or screenshot you should post them instead of ranting about "double standards."

The weak quality of another bug report doesn't make your case any stronger.

 

http://www.wowhead.com/forums&topic=49214/judgement-of-light-wis-stacking discussion from WOTLK where it's "confirmed" (if you're a simpleton like Duki) that judgements indeed don't stack, now the next logical step would be to find a patch note from pre-3.0 saying they used to stack and now don't. If you can't, there's a high chance they never indeed stacked or if they did it was a design flaw quickly hotfixed (Blizzard didn't document every hotfix and change done to the game.)   --- Bad argument, holds as about as much weight as the only one you have presented, which is next to none.

Unless of course you can find video evidence (should be the easiest since stacking multiple ranks of judgements would be a really powerful strategy)/strategy guides/screenshots or any more substantial evidence giving credit to your claim.

However, only thing you'll come up with is that same line of text from the same random guy who ends up contradicting himself straight after.

 

//kind regards and try to contain your bias for the possibility of civil discussion and fixing important bugs to make the playing experience better for everyone

[killerduki 54]

2 minutes ago, Guybrush said:

Those values were confirmed with the 1.12 theorycraft addon source code, which tested and validated those values back in the day

Since when "Addons" are Evidence!? .....

5 minutes ago, Hudson said:

If you can't figure out why some claims would be more easily corroborated by video evidence than others, then there is no point to me participating in this thread any longer. Please feel free to submit more evidence specifically supporting your claims via GitHub when your ban expires.

Same way as you will never find any Video evidence in regards to Spell Damage Coefficients.

4 minutes ago, Phoosy said:

Because Guybrush is a Github contributor that not only referenced three(!) different sources (one of which was an older add-on, but was able to verify in a video that the coefficient calculations for at least one of the spells were accurate.

Sources by him was Wowwiki (Wowpedia the Copy/Paste) Which you clearly said , you have a rule of refusing it as Evidence , Allakhazam which you deny the Poster from the same Website and an Addon!?!?!.

Yeah , finding an Video evidence for 1 Out of 35 Spells confirms every single spell in game!?!?!?!...  Thank goodness i can see how stupid people in this world exist....

/Kind regards Killerduki

[Guybrush 11]

5 minutes ago, killerduki said:

Since when "Addons" are Evidence!? .....

Since always? 

Theorycraft, BigWigs and KTM are extremely good resources for vanilla mechanics.

 

[killerduki 54]

Quote

 

  6 minutes ago, killerduki said:

Since when "Addons" are Evidence!? .....

 

 

3 minutes ago, Guybrush said:

Since always? 

Theorycraft and BigWigs are extremely good resources for vanilla mechanics.

 

Ill keep this like that.

/Kind regards Killerduki

[kingRat 1]

4 minutes ago, killerduki said:

 

Ill keep this like that.

/Kind regards Killerduki

Now if only somebody made an addon for calculating how much healing multiple stacked judgements of light gave...

//kindest regards

[Patchi 4]

They are referencing the source code of the addons that would take mechanics into account as to why they functioned the way they do in a situation, so an addon codded for vanilla, would use the original blizzard mechanics to function, making them able to reverse engineer the addon to figure out the blizzlike function.

But you're just showing how ignorant you really are by continuing to argue a point which holds no water.

[Guest]

If you're going to selectively quote me, at least include everything I stated

Quote

Ontop of all that, the sources given provide mathematical values that can be replicated/reproduced by referencing other video content for usage of those spells

I'm done discussing this topic with you, it's clear you're too biased against this change to be able to practically defend it. I've spent the last several hours looking to see if I could be possibly wrong and eat the hell out of some humble pie, but have turned up nothing. The only hint for either argument was an old Paladin guide that talked about different judgements from other Paladins being able to stack, but given how detailed the guides were in talking about the class spells in raids I severely doubt they would have overlooked such a massive differential in how debuffs work across the board. (Source: http://paladin-guide.blogspot.com/2005/12/judgements.html, quote: "Multiple paladins can activate different judgements of this kind on the same target.") Something like this would be a gigantic red flag since its such a huge change from how other debuffs work, you'd see it in other media you should be able to easily find if this were Blizzlike.

[killerduki 54]

4 minutes ago, Phoosy said:

If you're going to selectively quote me, at least include everything I stated

I'm done discussing this topic with you, it's clear you're too biased against this change to be able to practically defend it. I've spent the last several hours looking to see if I could be possibly wrong and eat the hell out of some humble pie, but have turned up nothing. The only hint for either argument was an old Paladin guide that talked about different judgements from other Paladins being able to stack, but given how detailed the guides were in talking about the class spells in raids I severely doubt they would have overlooked such a massive differential in how debuffs work across the board. (Source: http://paladin-guide.blogspot.com/2005/12/judgements.html, quote: "Multiple paladins can activate different judgements of this kind on the same target.") Something like this would be a gigantic red flag since its such a huge change from how other debuffs work, you'd see it in other media you should be able to easily find if this were Blizzlike.

Not just that but also this :

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Paladin_tactics

Judgement Priority

3 paladins, 1 prot - Prot judges Wisdom, all others judge Light.

/Kind regards Killerduki

[beenliftin 0]

 

3 minutes ago, killerduki said:

Not just that but also this :

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Paladin_tactics

Judgement Priority

3 paladins, 1 prot - Prot judges Wisdom, all others judge Light.

/Kind regards Killerduki

 

You're joking right, you single out one line when clearly the additional lines in that article provide further context to what that statement meant.

2 paladins, 2 melee - if prot, judge Wisdom, Ret judges Light. If both Ret or Prot, the higher AP should judge Light.

2 paladins, 2 casters - The higher SP should judge Light, or both judge Wisdom to ensure more uptime.

3 paladins, 1 prot - Prot judges Wisdom, all others judge Light.

 

 

[Guybrush 11]

11 minutes ago, killerduki said:

Not just that but also this :

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Paladin_tactics

Judgement Priority

3 paladins, 1 prot - Prot judges Wisdom, all others judge Light.

/Kind regards Killerduki

That text was added during WotLK. We already determined JoL stacking was an exploit during WotLK.

[killerduki 54]

1 minute ago, Guybrush said:

That text was added during WotLK. We already determined JoL stacking was an exploit during WotLK.

 

 

9 minutes ago, beenliftin said:

 

 

You're joking right, you single out one line when clearly the additional lines in that article provide further context to what that statement meant.

2 paladins, 2 melee - if prot, judge Wisdom, Ret judges Light. If both Ret or Prot, the higher AP should judge Light.

2 paladins, 2 casters - The higher SP should judge Light, or both judge Wisdom to ensure more uptime.

3 paladins, 1 prot - Prot judges Wisdom, all others judge Light.

 

 

Just to set you free from your problems :

http://thesilverhand.net/retribution-paladin-guide/

What’s New in Patch 7.2?

Minor talent changes. Judgment of Light now stacks with multiple Paladins, and no longer has a 1 second cooldown on procs.

/Kind regards Killerduki

[Theloras 108]

59 minutes ago, Hudson said:

So, you're saying that a very obvious tactic to more than double the healing done by Judgement of Light was never recorded at all in the thousands of videos on YouTube? Even in the fights where heavy melee healing would have been massively beneficial?

Maybe take a step back from your fervor and ask yourself whether it's more likely that this is a bugged spell on Elysium, or that something so obvious was only mentioned in passing one time on a forum, and never seen in any video ever? I appreciate that you are passionate about the paladin class, but you should really make the mental effort to look at class issues more objectively.

The example is already there and it's called Seal Twisting - something that was enabled during patch 1.11 but wasn't discovered until patch 2.3 by Slayton - a mechanic/tactic that literally DOUBLED Blood Elf DPS when they began pairing Seal of Command + Seal of Blood and Windfury

Even Blizzard commended Slayton for discovering it in the first place - rather than nerf/remove/hotfix it, they called it, "A Creative Use of Game Mechanics."

So again, for the umpteenth time I will say again...

THE ABSENCE OF EVIDENCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE

[kingRat 1]

2 minutes ago, Theloras said:

The example is already there and it's called Seal Twisting - something that was enabled during patch 1.11 but wasn't discovered until patch 2.3 by Slayton - a mechanic/tactic that literally DOUBLED Blood Elf DPS when they began pairing Seal of Command + Seal of Blood and Windfury

Even Blizzard commended Slayton for discovering it in the first place - rather than nerf/remove/hotfix it, they called it, "A Creative Use of Game Mechanics."

So again, for the umpteenth time I will say again...

THE ABSENCE OF EVIDENCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE

Hey, I have this trick that will give everyone 100% dps increase. What is it? You have to play while handstanding, the year must be between 1.1.2005 and 31.12.2007, you can't prove it didn't happen and give a 100% dps increase since there is no evidence it not happening.
What if all the top performing dps players of the time were handstanding?

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

 

//kind regards and get a grip

[Theloras 108]

1 hour ago, Hudson said:

If this mechanic existed, surely you can find a single video showing two Judgements of Light on the same mob?

Like Seal Twisting during Vanilla?

[Theloras 108]

1 hour ago, Hudson said:

If this mechanic existed, surely you can find a single video showing two Judgements of Light on the same mob?

Fine, everyone seems to ask Duki and I to take a step back so why don't we.

Let's get rid of the drama and let me ask @Guybrush and @Phoosy a simple question whether they even believe the 2005 post in the first place?

I think Phoosy doesn't but I can't remember if Guybrush does or not.

[Imbaslap 14]

1 minute ago, Theloras said:

see this is why you're a fucking kunt

i couldn't help but include the lawbringer shoulders and helm.. it's only fitting. :)

[killerduki 54]

6 minutes ago, Imbaslap said:

We all can see our Contributor in this list.

 

No wonder why this project is becoming Crestfall Meme project.

/Kind regards Killerduki

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Theloras said:

Fine, everyone seems to ask Duki and I to take a step back so why don't we.

Let's get rid of the drama and let me ask @Guybrush and @Phoosy a simple question whether they even believe the 2005 post in the first place?

I think Phoosy doesn't but I can't remember if Guybrush does or not.

The post needs to be substantiated by some other type of evidence because it is a major deviation of how all other game mechanics work at that time. If it were something like a stun effect being confirmed for a specific mob? Sure, I'd buy it. That's a pretty particular use case. Downranked judgements applying ontop of higher ranked Judgements is such a major deviation of how all other game mechanics work at that time that you would see it substantiated in other media or content. Thus far it has not, therefore my position is that it's a bug and needs to be fixed to be in line with the rest of the game's debuffs unless further evidence can otherwise suggest that this was a bugged implementation in Vanilla that somehow the entire game population missed.