Naxx must be made blizzlike.

[xploit 0]

Naxx must be ultra hardcore in difficulty so that not all guilds will be able to finish it and not all guilds will be able to finish even half of it just like in retail.

In retail despite many guilds having BWL on farm, they actually were only killing 0(none) or 1-2 bosses in Naxx like patchwerk.. they couldn't kill any more of them due to the ultra hardcore difficulty.  Most of these guilds were also trying hard with full consumes, flasks and ZG buffs.

Back in the day:

Most active raiding guilds that got to enter Naxx could only do 20% of Naxx , only a very small margin of the few raiding guilds have done 80% of naxx and those who have done 100% are pretty countable and known.

The active raiding guilds have BWL on farm and on speed runs but could not do twins and c'thun, and could only do patchwerk until TBC came out.

The few raiding guilds that have done 80% of naxx until TBC came out were basically farming full AQ40.

But the guilds that full cleared Kel'thuzad before TBC were professional gaming guilds being paid to play and also the best of the best out of casual guilds.

Why is the Naxx blizzlike ultra hardcore difficulty beneficial? 

Players won't finish the game, only a few will and that means people would not quit right away because the challenge will always be there until they eventually make perfect performance. They won't finish the game and get bored then quit.

Naxx isn't easy, players who did BWL on farm back then had the skills and knowledge to play but only 3 out of 100 BWL farming guilds have done 80% naxx.

Players who will convince that Naxx is easy or should be easy are players that likely did Naxx in another private server which were basically easy which we have experienced in other private servers. Naxx content in other 1.12 private servers are easy mode.

Players who farmed BWL back in the day knew how to play but Naxx was not just about who knew how to play, it was the best of the best that could only ever do it.

Players who didn't know how to play back then basically wiped in MC, ZG and AQ20 and that still happens today in Elysium lol so lets be honest "people don't know how to play back then" is not an excuse for Naxx to be easy like in all other private servers.

The development team must not base it on "oh we need to make this doable for our skill level because we think we're pro and good"  absolutely should not be developed around this. Rather focus on the retail videos that were uploaded in 2006/7 and get real data there to develop naxx.

Development must be around the retail videos of naxx 40.

[DPS 6]

Well, I'm agree with idea to make Naxx hardcore, but I'm disagree with talks about "naxx 40 was hard".

Blizzlike naxx was pretty ez except 2-3 bosses. The only reason it wasn't cleared by most raiding guilds is that players were too low skilled compared to modern standards. 

If Naxx will be fully blizzlike - it will be smashed in 1-2 days at max by top guilds, since all bosses except KT and 4H will be one-shotted.

[Haestingas 30]

I would be surprised if Saph didn't create issues for top guilds.

[DPS 6]

5 минут назад, Haestingas сказал:

I would be surprised if Saph didn't create issues for top guilds.

Sapph is pretty ez boss. Buff up, spread out, Prayer of Healing, Decurse, Nuke, Hide repeat untill boss death.

With buffed raid and skilled healers its killable even w/o FrR gear.

[Roxy 8]

Naxx isnt a very hard raid mechanics wise, but it was a massive step up from MC and BWL, and most bosses in AQ. If you played wow active the last few years the mechanics that naxx throw at you is pretty easy mode.

But naxx bosses is pretty heavy gearchecks, but that part is heavily negated by the timeline on private servers. We follow a blizzlike timeline, but on retail, most raids werent killed for the first time a few months after they got released. 

Blizzlike timeline = around 6 months inbetween raid tiers. First kills around 2 months in to the tier. That is 2 months extra to farm gear compared to private servers where raids are  cleared first night, and that was only a comparison to the very top guilds on retail, the regular guild didnt clear a raid earlier than 4 months into a tier, giving only 2 months to farm gear before next tier was released.

That in addition to huge amounts of knowledge in gear choices + 1.12 talents make a massive difference when it come to the difficulty of raids on private servers compared to retail. 

If you want to have raids that last a while you will need to overtune the raids by pretty large amounts.

Only 4 horsemen is going to last longer than first night, simply because you really want many tanks with 4pieces tier3 to avoid taunt resists, but with some luck even 4h is not impossible without too many set bonuses. (Though you will need some divine luck to get a try with zero taunt resist)

[Necrosthevile 0]

3 minutes ago, Sulf said:

Sapph is pretty ez boss. Buff up, spread out, Prayer of Healing, Decurse, Nuke, Hide repeat untill boss death.

With buffed raid and skilled healers its killable even w/o FrR gear.

Only the MT really needs FrR to avoid the damage spikes from the frost breath, and even then he does not need to be max FrR. The quest FrR rings and crafted FrR gear should be enough. Four Horseman will be the real test. You either have to RNG it or have 8 tanks with 4P T3 for the transitions.

A lot of people have complained about AQ40 being too easy, but a lot of those fights were DPS checks and there are a number of factors that less relevant on this server.

1. First is talents. 1.12 talents were much more balanced and stronger than nearly any before it. Increasing DPS, Healing and Damage mitigation.

2. "A more powerful spell is already active" - Anyone who raided Naxx and did Maxenna will tell you how important having a druid and priest with spellpower trinket rotations was for HoTS on your tank during web wrap. Being able to stack HoTs greatly increases healing efficiency.

3. This increase in healing, and mana regeneration, combined with player skill, means that many guilds bring fewer healers and more DPS to fights. The farthest progressed Naxx guild on my server brought 12-14 healers to Naxx. Looking at a few recent clears of AQ40 a lot of guilds are bringing 8-10 healers. Having 2-4 extra DPS is a huge boon for DPS check fights.

4. Player Skill and Knowledge - Contrary to what a lot of people believe, player skill has not greatly increased. There are still a lot of keyboard turners out there. What has increased is player knowledge and resources. The best specs, rotations, pre-raid gearing, BiS lists etc. In a lot of the high end guild kill videos you will see Mortal Strike and serpent sting and rend and other useless debuffs on the bosses who you would be laughed out of a raid for using now. Back then the theorycraft was not as robust and people generally went with a gut feeling, and many times, anything that generated big numbers (not necessarily the highest DPS).

When you have DPS check fights, and you greatly increase the general DPS of raids, the bosses appear to be easier. It does not mean they are not Blizzlike.

 

[Gemt 1]

Naxx should not be made "hard", it should be made exactly as it was. That is exactly as it was with regards to mechanics, dmg, armor and resistance values. Special tuning to Naxx to make it "Blizzlike" in the sense that the same percentage of players who cleared it on retail, clear it here, or tuning it such that the guilds clearing it here struggle as much as people did on retail is not what people play vanilla private servers for, at least none I have met. 

The repeated statement from most of the people I play with on this server is "I did xyz in Vanilla on retail, but never had the chance to clear naxx, now I want to do it here". They do not expect to feel the content is as challenging as people did in 2006. On the contrary, they expect to be able to clear it. It will still be a challenge, but they know that with the knowledge we now posses it will be "easy" compared to what it was back then. People do not play on private servers to progress raid like they would have, some of us did, in 2006. If what players were seeking here was technically challenging raid content, retail wow is a much better option.

Some AQ bosses and trash was slightly up-tuned compared to retail vanilla values. For AQ, and content pre AQ, there is an argument to be had that we play with a 1.12 client, with 1.12 spells , talents and mechanics, and that these changes may have compensated for some of this. However, the differences between patch 1.11 and patch 1.12 would affect the difficulty of Naxx to a much smaller extent. Our server is emulating 1.12 mechanics (for the most part), and it's getting fairly good at it (though there is still a long way to go for perfection). I think it's fair to say that if Naxx was scripted perfectly using the Elysium core, and bosses were using the spells as they are defined the the DBC correctly, a guild running Naxx in 2006 on Blizzards servers would not notice a huge change in difficulty if the server they connected to was suddenly replaced with our server. Sure, there would be differences, but I doubt they would have a much harder or easier time clearing Naxx.

Feels to me like a lot of people quit recently due to be burned out of progressing or wiping in AQ. I don't agree with those who say AQ is too overturned. I certainly don't agree with those who say its too under-tuned either. There are bugs that prevent it from being mechanically perfect and there are some things overturned to compensate for other things being undertuned, but all in all the AQ difficulty here is not too far from a Blizzard server imo (though that obviously depends on which of the versions you are thinking of for some of the bosses).

Tuning Naxx to have the same difficulty as Naxx had in 2006 should be much more straight forward than it was tuning AQ. We pretty much have the same spells and talents as you did in 2006. We are using the same DBC files. We have better video sources for tuning. More or less everything makes it easier to develop it such that it is mechanically the same as as it was on release in 2006. 

This is what the vast majority of people I play with expect and want. Sure, there are those like yourself xploit who would rather see <1% of the population (or whatever it is you want) clear the content, but until I'm proven otherwise I feel confident I'm in the majority. If Naxx is released with good scripting such that mechanics work as they should, but boss damage is significantly buffed, or player damage is significantly nerfed (through armor and resistances), I think a worrying amount of raiders will get bored of wiping to content that they expect to clear. 

I have played in hardcore progressive guilds on retail, raiding 5-7days a week during bursts of progress. I did not come back to vanilla to do the same again in custom, overtuned content. I know what to expect from Naxx (at least the parts of it I did), and I just want to re-experience it in a slightly more relaxed way than I did back in the days. I don't want a bugged craphole where half of the boss abilities are missing or on wrong timers. That would make it easier than it should be. But I don't want a Naxx with working abilities and timers, with the significant additions of more armor/resistance/hp/dmg on bosses either. I think if the bosses are scripted correctly, with the right spells and timers, people will find it to be just the right amount of a challenge.

[Haestingas 30]

43 minutes ago, Roxy said:

Only 4 horsemen is going to last longer than first night, simply because you really want many tanks with 4pieces tier3 to avoid taunt resists, but with some luck even 4h is not impossible without too many set bonuses. (Though you will need some divine luck to get a try with zero taunt resist)

You realize there's an item already available that negates taunt resists and the cd makes it workable on 4H. Broken Reel 4 lyfe

[Forest_ 40]

I think you're worried about something that is inevitable.

Things that weren't known in 2006: Every boss strat, perfect itemization, exact consumes needed for each boss.

Things that are known in 2017: Everything.

Don't be butt hurt when WAY more guilds than you expect do 8/15 or more of Naxx. Naxx needs to be made Blizzlike, and that is exactly what the Dev team is aiming to do. Calm your tits, Naxx has been being worked on for a month+ now. It will come out, and it will be as close to blizzlike as we can get.

[Roxy 8]

2 hours ago, Haestingas said:

You realize there's an item already available that negates taunt resists and the cd makes it workable on 4H. Broken Reel 4 lyfe

Did not know it had a cd short enough, but i guess if its shorter than what 150 seconds? it should work 

[Necrosthevile 0]

33 minutes ago, Roxy said:

Did not know it had a cd short enough, but i guess if its shorter than what 150 seconds? it should work 

The Four Horseman also output a significant amount of damage and the healing is spread out so they cannot cross support each other well. Some guilds may try that, but the guild on my server always had tank deaths when they tried. Even top guilds had to poach tanks from other guilds in order to get warriors that had the gear to survive the fight. A lot of guilds that could only progress a few bosses into Naxx had their MT's poached to guilds that were pounding their faces against the Four Horsemen.

[DPS 6]

4h is ez with ZG +hit trinket! So you dont need T3 gear at all for this! (btw its still possible even w/o ZG trinket - in case of taunt resist you can mocking blow+taunt, in case of 2-nd resist(pretty rare chance!)  you can Challenging shout+taunt, if more resists(you're fucking looser!) =wipe).

Sapph dont have frost breeeze btw... So tank dont need FrR at all! Boss hits tank only with phys+Blizzard(if unlucky), tank is need of huge armor/avoidance/HP to tank saph=  you need full T2+ def cap+ 2k armor pot + 450 armor pots +scrolls(they stack!) + Ungoro crystals = armor capped. Means, T2 will buff you only with some a litte HP(~670 HP), mean T3 isn't so huge buff compared to T2...

So you can clear WHOLE Naxx in T2 gear or even mix of T2/T1... 

Also you can add some imba pre-raid items(eg devilsaur/bloodvine, +81 vs undead AP trinket etc) so you see, you dont need BiS AQ40 gear to get enough DPS/tanking stats/HPS+Manapool(or mregen) to be ready for naxx)

[Roxy 8]

2 hours ago, Necrosthevile said:

The Four Horseman also output a significant amount of damage and the healing is spread out so they cannot cross support each other well. Some guilds may try that, but the guild on my server always had tank deaths when they tried. Even top guilds had to poach tanks from other guilds in order to get warriors that had the gear to survive the fight. A lot of guilds that could only progress a few bosses into Naxx had their MT's poached to guilds that were pounding their faces against the Four Horsemen.

Healing output shouldnt be a issue really if you don't screw up rotations.

If tanks die due to swapping to a hit trinket, it's because they didnt keep their defcap in mind when swapping around gear, and any guild looking to clear naxx within the first few resets know how the defcap works and how to swap around your gear to keep it.

 

Top guilds on retail had to poach tanks, because they werent aware that they needed 7-8 tanks with decent tanking gear, preferably in 4p T3, to do the boss, until they actually got there. Not many guilds had more than 2-3 extra dps warriors with good enough gear to do 4H, and nowhere close to the 4set. So they had to either gear up 2-3 more dps warriors, or poach from other guilds.

On private servers, guilds know exactly how much gear they need, in addition to having a lot more time to farm for said gear, making the entire proccess of doing 4H a lot easier.

The only reason 4H lived for as long as it did, was because noone really managed to figure out a good strategy for it until DnT released theirs, shortly after they did, a lot of guilds killed 4H. DnT even lost the race on Kel'Thuzad because they released(or it got leaked i don't remember) their strategy too early.

[DPS 6]

8 часов назад, Roxy сказал:

Healing output shouldnt be a issue really if you don't screw up rotations.

If tanks die due to swapping to a hit trinket, it's because they didnt keep their defcap in mind when swapping around gear, and any guild looking to clear naxx within the first few resets know how the defcap works and how to swap around your gear to keep it.

 

Bullshit! If you know def mechanics you're got that def isn't so important ppl claims. Thunder Clap+Shield Block will make you crit/crush immune even with 300def and 33% to block+parry+miss+dodge.

Also for Thane/Mograine you need FR gear, mean you can't be def capped.

[Roxy 8]

1 minute ago, Sulf said:

Bullshit! If you know def mechanics you're got that def isn't so important ppl claims. Thunder Clap+Shield Block will make you crit/crush immune even with 300def and 33% to block+parry+miss+dodge.

Also for Thane/Mograine you need FR gear, mean you can't be def capped.

then that trinket is not going the be the reason your tanks died then is it? 

[DPS 6]

17 минут назад, Roxy сказал:

then that trinket is not going the be the reason your tanks died then is it? 

That trinket is very highly suggested to use for tanks at 4h.

[Roxy 8]

Just now, Sulf said:

That trinket is very highly suggested to use for tanks at 4h.

Sorry, was that other guy saying their tanks died when using that trinket

[DPS 6]

2 минуты назад, Roxy сказал:

Sorry, was that other guy saying their tanks died when using that trinket

yeah XD and still he is wrong, removing any item in game(except shield lol) can't make tanks die "all the time"

[Roxy 8]

Just now, Sulf said:

yeah XD and still he is wrong, removing any item in game(except shield lol) can't make tanks die "all the time"

Yea that was kind of my point

[Necrosthevile 0]

Four Horseman was a very execution critical fight and I was using the guild on my server as an example, not an absolute. Most of the tanks the top guild on my server recruited ended up being incompetent.

That being said, if all eight tanks use the Reel to decrease one variable in the encounter, the cumulative effect of the decrease in damage mitigation make tank deaths due to RNG or OOM healers more likely.

I realize I was not very clear in my previous post, but I was trying to imply that using the reel may eliminate one problem in the encounter, it creates another lesser problem.

Even with the reel taunt resists can happen. Spell hit is 17%. Also, contrary to popular belief you can have a taunt resist, and with improved taunt have time to get the other tank out, if you get resisted again the outgoing tank can pop shield wall and the incoming tank can try a 3rd taunt (again only with Imp Taunt) and let the encounter continue. With Shield Wall down a similar double taunt resist probably means a wipe.

The Reel is a gimmick that can work. It reminds me of people getting GM's to restore their deleted Luffa for the Moroes encounter during the first couple weeks of TBC. I would not count on it as a reliable strategy beyond the first few weeks of Naxx being released.

[TTL 6]

19 hours ago, Sulf said:

That trinket is very highly suggested to use for tanks at 4h.

Which trinket exactly? the 2000 armor 30 def rating one from the Heart of Hakkar quest?

[DPS 6]

2 часа назад, TTL сказал:

Which trinket exactly? the 2000 armor 30 def rating one from the Heart of Hakkar quest?

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=19947

[DPS 6]

12 часа назад, Necrosthevile сказал:

Four Horseman was a very execution critical fight and I was using the guild on my server as an example, not an absolute. Most of the tanks the top guild on my server recruited ended up being incompetent.

That being said, if all eight tanks use the Reel to decrease one variable in the encounter, the cumulative effect of the decrease in damage mitigation make tank deaths due to RNG or OOM healers more likely.

I realize I was not very clear in my previous post, but I was trying to imply that using the reel may eliminate one problem in the encounter, it creates another lesser problem.

Even with the reel taunt resists can happen. Spell hit is 17%. Also, contrary to popular belief you can have a taunt resist, and with improved taunt have time to get the other tank out, if you get resisted again the outgoing tank can pop shield wall and the incoming tank can try a 3rd taunt (again only with Imp Taunt) and let the encounter continue. With Shield Wall down a similar double taunt resist probably means a wipe.

The Reel is a gimmick that can work. It reminds me of people getting GM's to restore their deleted Luffa for the Moroes encounter during the first couple weeks of TBC. I would not count on it as a reliable strategy beyond the first few weeks of Naxx being released.

You're wrong! 1 slot wont get your tanks weak and die cause of it! If you got enough tanks/healers and they know what to do, if they got consumables there's 0% chance to wipe at 4h! Only players fail/lag can make you die here! 

Taunt resists can''t make you wipe here, until you wont get fucked up with 5-6 taunt resists in a row. 3 taunt resists(with mocking blow and chall shout on CD) mean only 2x extra marks, and tanks can survive up to 7-8 w/o using cooldowns.

 

With current player skill there's possible to kill 4h in 4-5 tanks and 11-12 healers. And yeah, its possible to nuke Thane in ~80-90 seconds(5-6 marks) with ~20-25k raid dps. (Blizzkile HP values were even lower(~500k for Thane, but looks like we will have 810k - incorrect HP values from unknown source))

Its much much more easiest boss encounter than you're think.

[xploit 0]

On 6/9/2017 at 3:18 PM, Sulf said:

You're wrong! 1 slot wont get your tanks weak and die cause of it! If you got enough tanks/healers and they know what to do, if they got consumables there's 0% chance to wipe at 4h! Only players fail/lag can make you die here! 

 

this pretty much confirms that you've never done naxx in retail and you most likely never even got to enter it in retail.

you've only done it on feenix or in wotlk lol.

Only a small margin of many top retail guilds that got to enter naxx did 4H in retail, let alone only a few made it to 4H.

This is not feenix or any other private server where all guilds did naxx. 

Don't ever ever try and assume or base  Naxx off your own skill level from doing it in feenix or in other private servers and hopefully the developers here don't base it off their skill level either.

 

[DPS 6]

1 час назад, xploit сказал:

this pretty much confirms that you've never done naxx in retail and you most likely never even got to enter it in retail.

you've only done it on feenix or in wotlk lol.

Only a small margin of many top retail guilds that got to enter naxx did 4H in retail, let alone only a few made it to 4H.

This is not feenix or any other private server where all guilds did naxx. 

Don't ever ever try and assume or base  Naxx off your own skill level from doing it in feenix or in other private servers and hopefully the developers here don't base it off their skill level either.

 

back to retail times players were really bad. Back to 2006 4h were hard, but today thats trash because ppl are much more skilled.

And yes, again, you cant wipe at 4h unless they got buffed or you're got retards in raid.

 

P.S. At Feenix 4h were much more harder than at retail.