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Cap/Randomization Change to BG

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2 minutes ago, Phoosy said:

I actually don't PvP because I don't have a max level character to premade or regularly PvP with!

It does not take a PvPer or ranker to recognize that artificially slowing down the process to gain ranks by preventing premades/randomizing the queues isn't a well-founded idea. The process to gain ranks already takes an inordinate amount of time to do due to sheer volume, every ranker plays a numbers game trying to cap their honor each week as is. I fail to see how making it take longer for them to cap their honor gains is somehow helpful to the PvP scene. All this does is make it so that people will be less likely to rank now that it's completely random who they're paired up with and can no longer rely on a cohesive, effective team. The time investment is bad enough, but if I'm gunning for R10-14 and I'm guaranteed to be put in a match with teammates who I can't trust I won't bother.

Not to mention the change caters to account sharers and encourages account sharing to keep up with honor.

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This will result into a more non blizzlike environment as people stated above.

Rules on worldbosses are bullshit. Turned worldbosses from a competitive aspect down to a pve tag game for casuals.

Lowering the respecc cost is bullshit. Can't cut the deal to respecc every day? Fucking farm

Now fixing prems at 2ppl? So that casuals can be happy while most games are casual vs casual anyways? Sure break this one as well.

 

This project does it best to become the next Feenix 2.0 Turning vanilla experiences into complete garbage. At least remove any form of 'blizzlike realm' types on the webpage and rename it to custom funserver at this point

 

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1 hour ago, Shayss said:

Personally i think its a very gray idea.

Sure, maybe make pvp for accessible to the people usually getting roflstomped. However the fact of the matter is, this is still a player vs player thing. Just because all the sickos went alliance doesnt mean you should change the game to accomodate others.

If people is afraid of getting roflstomped they can make their own premade or go do world pvp.
It is not like there is lack of options.

One thing that can somewhat fix the problem is making brackets. So 1-3 player queue bracket. 4-7 player queue bracket and 8-10 player queue bracket. But I do not think there is enough pvpers to support it.

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hey don't like losing to premades? Get in a premade and stop crying. Life isn't fair and if someone puts together a premade and you don't have one you deserve to get stomped. This WoW has to be fair shit is exactly why retail is the way it is. 

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On one hand, it's not blizzlike as vanilla was back in the day. On the other hand, blizzard later changed this the exact same way because premades were fucking cancer for anyone not in a premade. This has already been discussed to death on retail, and the consensus was that premades would get a 5 player cap (and addons that got around this were disabled). This is why rated battlegrounds were introduced, to get rid of premades in RANDOM battlegrounds.

I can see why elysium wants to make this change, and I can see why some players dont want it (not technically "blizzlike"). Both are solid arguments, no idea which side of the fence to be on.

 

helpful thread to read: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/7200052820?page=11#214

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I'm not sure what this change is intended to accomplish, but it's only going to ruin the pvp experience even further. You can't pretend to be a blizzlike server, and use that reasoning as a shield for decisions such as not updating pvp gear at sensible times and then make completely random un-blizzlike changes such as this.

After Nostalrius went down, we had nowhere to go. We're here now, please don't make the same mistakes. Nostalrius did this and reverted the change 2 weeks after. Why was this? Because it doesn't fix anything, and it's a dreadful idea to begin with.

You're only going to drive players away by removing the core part of the game for a lot of people. This is like removing raiding as an option for a pve player and saying "sorry, you can only do dungeons because it's not fair that everyone can't clear every raid"

This game is a meritocracy, people aren't entitled to anything. Premades are a player created thing, with player create-able solutions. If you don't like facing premades, do what I did on horde and make your own premade and beat the alliance back, after all, it's what the game's about.

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This is an incredibly dumb change. You're ruining one of the core things that made vanilla enjoyable for many people. If we whine and cry enough will the change get reverted? Since apparently that's all that you listen to.

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1 hour ago, Phoosy said:

I actually don't PvP because I don't have a max level character to premade or regularly PvP with!

It does not take a PvPer or ranker to recognize that artificially slowing down the process to gain ranks by preventing premades/randomizing the queues isn't a well-founded idea. The process to gain ranks already takes an inordinate amount of time to do due to sheer volume, every ranker plays a numbers game trying to cap their honor each week as is. I fail to see how making it take longer for them to cap their honor gains is somehow helpful to the PvP scene. All this does is make it so that people will be less likely to rank now that it's completely random who they're paired up with and can no longer rely on a cohesive, effective team. The time investment is bad enough, but if I'm gunning for R10-14 and I'm guaranteed to be put in a match with teammates who I can't trust I won't bother.

Ok so - you dont have a max level character.... do you even understand how the game works? do you understand what a L60, bis character does with their time? 

 

Sorry dude, i dont wanna rag on you - you appear more capable of putting a sentence together than the average forum poster but come on. 

PvP isnt supposed to be about R14 gear, those are rewards for the few who can manage to achieve them. If you wanna argue that the entire Vanilla PvP system is broken (which it is), and that its rediculous that it takes 13+ weeks of playing 16+ hrs a day to achieve R14 then i'd be right there with you. But to argue that we should destroy one of the pillars of the game to make it easier for 50-100 people to get gear is rediculous.

 

One of the main reasons people go and raid, is to get gear, so they can go into PvP and kill people. We have removed that ability, you can't actually engage in PvP on elysium. You either world PvP jumping ppl who arnt expecting, you join a premade and honor farm empty BG's all day long or you solo queue and get farmed by Premades. (Part of the BG problem is people have given up, those that do solo queue usually just afk when they notice its a premade, if we could fix that then bg's would be better sure) 

 

So my understanding of what your saying is this "Theres 50-100 ppl who want to rank and get gear, we should allow them to dominate the PvP scene because they want gear, and we shouldnt do anything that makes an already overly difficult processes harder." What i see missing from your thought processes is what about the other 200,000 people who might want to occasionally step foot into a BG? What about them? What about the literally thousands of players who just want to go and fight someone of the opposit faction? Should we ignore them? Because so far the project has been and the result has been we went frm 45K ppl online + queue to 10K online. 

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2 minutes ago, reagan said:

Ok so - you dont have a max level character.... do you even understand how the game works? do you understand what a L60, bis character does with their time? 

Sorry dude, i dont wanna rag on you - you appear more capable of putting a sentence together than the average forum poster but come on. 

I'm not going to type at you like a child and I would request you give me the same respect. You can engage with me without talking down at me as if I don't have a clue, you've no idea what my experiences are.

2 minutes ago, reagan said:

PvP isnt supposed to be about R14 gear, those are rewards for the few who can manage to achieve them. If you wanna argue that the entire Vanilla PvP system is broken (which it is), and that its rediculous that it takes 13+ weeks of playing 16+ hrs a day to achieve R14 then i'd be right there with you. But to argue that we should destroy one of the pillars of the game to make it easier for 50-100 people to get gear is rediculous.

One of the main reasons people go and raid, is to get gear, so they can go into PvP and kill people. We have removed that ability, you can't actually engage in PvP on elysium. You either world PvP jumping ppl who arnt expecting, you join a premade and honor farm empty BG's all day long or you solo queue and get farmed by Premades. (Part of the BG problem is people have given up, those that do solo queue usually just afk when they notice its a premade, if we could fix that then bg's would be better sure) 

I'm not arguing to do nothing, I'm arguing to not do this. There is a distinct difference in the two. Based on the people I've spoken to who do actively PvP premades vs. PUGs are not a majority outcome. I would actually prefer to see this data come from the staff first as that would be a real justification for doing anything instead of just listening to people give anecdotal experiences.

2 minutes ago, reagan said:

So my understanding of what your saying is this "Theres 50-100 ppl who want to rank and get gear, we should allow them to dominate the PvP scene because they want gear, and we shouldnt do anything that makes an already overly difficult processes harder." What i see missing from your thought processes is what about the other 200,000 people who might want to occasionally step foot into a BG? What about them? What about the literally thousands of players who just want to go and fight someone of the opposit faction? Should we ignore them? Because so far the project has been and the result has been we went frm 45K ppl online + queue to 10K online. 

I do not personally believe that the PvP situation caused any appreciable drop in the population numbers for each server.

 

I personally would rather the system weight premades in a way that pits them against premades more often or take into account the highest rank of the players in a team to determine an overall skill score (a la ELO) than restrict premades to other premades only or block them out entirely. The nearly entirely random system that exists now doesn't work very well but if there was some weighing for the logic in getting two teams together it would go a long way better in my personal opinion.

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2 hours ago, Phoosy said:

From the latest patch notes:

This is a poorly thought out idea that (supposedly) has precedent in place to demonstrate it does not work. Premades are not an issue with PvP, they're an expected behavior and can be countered by other premades just fine. The larger issues with PvP lie in other areas that need to be addressed first before you can even consider this to be an option:

  • Fixing PvP marks not expiring
  • More strict anti-AFK measures/enforcement in BGs
  • Alerts/Monitoring of accounts with large percentages of time online vs. time in a day/week - i.e. account sharing
  • Deeply considering the rank gear earlier availability suggestion

This decision is controversial for a reason - it's an extremely poorly thought out one at best. Please sound off below if you agree or disagree but do me a favor:
PLEASE AVOID HYPERBOLE OR SLANDEROUS ACCUSATIONS AND REMAIN CONSTRUCTIVE.

i agree with you 100%

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Since this change was ostensibly done to combat organized ranking and RMT character selling, here's something to think about. Without group queues, you can now get considerably more honor relative to hardcore rankers by joining a battleground and sitting AFK for the duration of it. There's a lot of AFK botting going on right now (I usually see at least one in about half of the games I join randomly), but in order to actually rank up to the levels that I assume RMT selling required, you'd actually have to play in a game.

This change makes it so that AFK botting is more powerful than playing as a team, so I'd expect to see a big increase in botting at the expense of all your players that actually PvP. I'd much rather play a game against a Chinese premade that are going to sell their characters than a bunch of people sitting in the starting area and jumping every 2 minutes. As a player, I don't care at all if people are selling their characters; that's for the GM team to deal with, and if your solution affects me this much then you should find a different one.

On another note, pleasing casuals was just not what vanilla warcraft was about at all. Those were all changes from later expansions that ultimately led me (and many many of your players) to stop playing on retail and going back in time to vanilla. Hopefully the lead team can take a step back and look at how this is no different than implementing LFG/R, recruit-a-friend, and reduced raid sizes to make the game easier to play. If we wanted something friendly and easy, we'd go play on retail.

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24 minutes ago, reagan said:

Ok so - you dont have a max level character.... do you even understand how the game works? do you understand what a L60, bis character does with their time? 

 

Sorry dude, i dont wanna rag on you - you appear more capable of putting a sentence together than the average forum poster but come on. 

PvP isnt supposed to be about R14 gear, those are rewards for the few who can manage to achieve them. If you wanna argue that the entire Vanilla PvP system is broken (which it is), and that its rediculous that it takes 13+ weeks of playing 16+ hrs a day to achieve R14 then i'd be right there with you. But to argue that we should destroy one of the pillars of the game to make it easier for 50-100 people to get gear is rediculous.

 

One of the main reasons people go and raid, is to get gear, so they can go into PvP and kill people. We have removed that ability, you can't actually engage in PvP on elysium. You either world PvP jumping ppl who arnt expecting, you join a premade and honor farm empty BG's all day long or you solo queue and get farmed by Premades. (Part of the BG problem is people have given up, those that do solo queue usually just afk when they notice its a premade, if we could fix that then bg's would be better sure) 

 

So my understanding of what your saying is this "Theres 50-100 ppl who want to rank and get gear, we should allow them to dominate the PvP scene because they want gear, and we shouldnt do anything that makes an already overly difficult processes harder." What i see missing from your thought processes is what about the other 200,000 people who might want to occasionally step foot into a BG? What about them? What about the literally thousands of players who just want to go and fight someone of the opposit faction? Should we ignore them? Because so far the project has been and the result has been we went frm 45K ppl online + queue to 10K online. 

Have you ever played in a horde premade? There are no empty BGs, and over 70% of the games are vs ally premade? PvP isn't supposed to be about r14 gear? Then what is it supposed to be about, why do you feel entitled to tell me or anyone else why we should pvp? If you cba to form your own group if you are struggling then you deserve to get farmed. This is not a welfare fund, you need to earn your ranks. Progress dominates PvE, do you want to farm Progress because they are dominating PvE? The project has been in decline because of all the drama, not because of PvP. Nostalrius's PvP scene was in 10x healthier state than on this god forsaken server, and you had twice more the premades running at its peak.

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6 minutes ago, prsina said:

Have you ever played in a horde premade? There are no empty BGs, and over 70% of the games are vs ally premade? PvP isn't supposed to be about r14 gear? Then what is it supposed to be about, why do you feel entitled to tell me or anyone else why we should pvp? If you cba to form your own group if you are struggling then you deserve to get farmed. This is not a welfare fund, you need to earn your ranks. Progress dominates PvE, do you want to farm Progress because they are dominating PvE? The project has been in decline because of all the drama, not because of PvP. Nostalrius's PvP scene was in 10x healthier state than on this god forsaken server, and you had twice more the premades running at its peak.

It's supposed to be about fighting the other faction and grinding their face into the fucking dirt. Your mindset is the very cancer that this kind of move is trying to prevent. Private server rankers are an abomination that have pushed the vanilla system to the breaking point that have ruined it for 95% of the server.

Quite frankly I could ignore the premades stomping the pugs endlessly if the premades actually fought each other all out. Instead they MAYBE fight it out for the first skirmish, then the loser just sandbags to lose as quick as possible so they can go back to farming pugs. It's fucking pathetic and you deserve anything and everything to curb your bullshit abuse of this system.

 

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I'm reposting what Nano said on Reddit, since he phrased it better than I did. Maybe our lead team can listen to the input from someone who dealt with the same player complaints about PvP on Nostalrius.

Quote

Making changes to the PvP system was a mistake when we experimented with it and it is likely to be a mistake this time as well. Doing so without first explaining the rational is unwise.

There are a lot of complaints that people have about vanilla mechanics and they can make sense at times. Blizzard made incremental changes to their systems that were results of complaints and "made sense." Now Legion plays like and feels like a completely different game than World of Warcraft - which isn't necessarily a bad thing but people play Elysium to experience vanilla as it was, not for Elysium's version of vanilla today.

 

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18 minutes ago, Haestingas said:

It's supposed to be about fighting the other faction and grinding their face into the fucking dirt. Your mindset is the very cancer that this kind of move is trying to prevent. Private server rankers are an abomination that have pushed the vanilla system to the breaking point that have ruined it for 95% of the server.

Quite frankly I could ignore the premades stomping the pugs endlessly if the premades actually fought each other all out. Instead they MAYBE fight it out for the first skirmish, then the loser just sandbags to lose as quick as possible so they can go back to farming pugs. It's fucking pathetic and you deserve anything and everything to curb your bullshit abuse of this system.

 

When did I say I ever played only the first fight? The premade I played with never dodged or bent, you can ask Gropy how many times we had 50 minutes wsg. You are putting words in my mouth and implying premades bend and dodge, which most of them don't.

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13 minutes ago, Lorilay said:

I'm reposting what Nano said on Reddit, since he phrased it better than I did. Maybe our lead team can listen to the input from someone who dealt with the same player complaints about PvP on Nostalrius.

 

Thank you for the quote, well put by Nano himself.

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So how far is this change going to get? Whats next? World bosses are only accesable to 0.001% of the population, should they be forced to only be 5 players + guarantee spawn on a time elysium decides? 

Should ganking not be allowed in a group more then 2 people? 

Is it fair that <progress> can clear 23mins when my casual guild takes 2 days? No, lets make it so they both have equal clear time.

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anyone who likes this change shouldn't be playing vanilla. Terrible decisions like murdering the pvp system for some custom fun server shit is why people are worried about you guys botching tbc. Seriously don't change vanilla just because a few people cry and want participation trophies.

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