PvP faction imbalanced caused by premades is killing the server

[Zancon 117]

4 hours ago, kretzoo said:

first of all u dont have the population that a blizz server had in vanilla, u barelly have 50% of it.

 

Negative. The average retail Vanilla WoW realms had between 2,000 and 2,500 users online at peek. Nighthaven has more users online than a retail Vanilla server.

[kretzoo 0]

33 minutes ago, Zancon said:

Negative. The average retail Vanilla WoW realms had between 2,000 and 2,500 users online at peek. Nighthaven has more users online than a retail Vanilla server.

maybe at the very beginning, but when time passed they improved the servers hardware, and the server population cap. also they implemented crossrealms, things that cannot be brought to a private server.

nightheaven barelly gets more then 3k ppl nowdays, altho before 1.4 popped there were like 4k-4,5k every night. afterall u cant compare 30k ppl with 2.5k.

we have like only 1 av and 2-3 wsg's? on blizz there were 10+ av's and 30-40+ wsg.

if u guys wanna keep pvp alive, u should consider fix somehow the premade thing...let elite play vs elite, and nabcakes play vs nabcakes....or mix them!

 

 

[fixpvp 0]

Glad to see other peoples input on PvP on the server.

Just queued today after a 3 day break, 5 games in a row into the same premade for 5 losses in less than 5 minutes each. Honestly if you don't intend to do something please let me know so I can quit now. If you don't want to implement premade vs premade at least remove the option to solo queue. Seriously, get a GM to spectate people queueing solo to get a feel for the match quality - you will see it is unplayable.

There are 3 days until Kronos 3 launch. I really fucking hate leveling but at this point it seems more enjoyable than continuing to try and play PvP here.

[Sunslaughter 0]

I, as a horde player, agree with the people who are complaining about the status quo in pvp aka warsong gulch, which is pretty much the only competetive honor farming option in Vanilla, at least pre Arathi Basin . I dont know if there are any existing premade grps on horde side, since I neither participated in any nor read about players looking for any players in that matter. My experience has been so far that its either pug vs pug, in which case horde most of the time comes out on top, or horde pug vs alliance premade (roughly 75% of the matches), which results in an almost guaranteed stomp in favour of the alliance. So the negative result of the acceptance of premade groups being handled exatctly the same as pugs and being matched against those, even without any queuing time or restrictions what so ever, in my oppinion can be devided in two major stand points. On the one hand from horde perspective there are these predetermened, no fun what so ever games, which turn out as 5-10min gy camps, consisting of no competetive ballancing at all (which for me and i think for most of the people is the foundation of fun in pvp) . On the other hand you have the alliance pugs being weekend so much by the sheer existence of the premade grps and them taking away most of the good players who would otherwhise be mixed in those pugs and possibly lead them to victory. I think the alliance in general is very strong in vanilla pvp due to having access to the paladin class, which is an exceptional pvp healer that perfectly enables the warrior to be the feared class he was back then in vanilla. Also there is, specifically on this server, a devistating imbalance regarding healers in battlegrounds in general, not least becasue of the arguments previously made (+healers getting stomped by enabled warriors). I'm not saying that horde has no chances....maybe it is just the feeling being created by those unfavourable matchups (pugs vs premade), which take all the fun from pvp, at least according to the people I know....the real point im making is that there is no need for alliance to gather up in premade groups to climb the ranks or have fun. I believe that the majority of players on both sides would enjoy pvp on this server so much more, if this situation was being dealt with and the competetive ground would be restored. Sorry for the long text, but I guess that I'm really bothered by whats going on at the moment. Take care guys! 

[kretzoo 0]

there are also premades ont the horde side, or at least used to be, lido's, fatmike's, nbfs's and some others, which had the same result vs a pug, a rough win, and alliance camped in the gy.

last night i've been 1 game in a premade, we won in like 8 minutes. in those 8 minutes none of us died, and we were slaughtering horde in gy. they basicly had no chance to even get 1 HK this whole time. Now tell me, why would u continue to que in WSG in this condition?

fix the premade thing, or u will have dead server on pvp side.

[Ironz 0]

Hello, IMO there is no problem with premades, there is problem with pugs. If There are 8 active warsong gulches and 2 of them are premades, it is nice. If there is 3 active warsong gulches and 2 of them are premades that is problem. Dont blame people who farms honor with premades. Blame other players who just don´t want participate in BGs. People just not interested in BGs enough, especially on aliance side IMO you just see 15-20 same players farming WSG every day.  PvP imbalace in BGs is BIG problem and if you can solve this somehow you have my respect. Regards, Ironz.

[Mayhew 0]

23 hours ago, Ironz said:

Hello, IMO there is no problem with premades, there is problem with pugs. If There are 8 active warsong gulches and 2 of them are premades, it is nice. If there is 3 active warsong gulches and 2 of them are premades that is problem. Dont blame people who farms honor with premades. Blame other players who just don´t want participate in BGs. People just not interested in BGs enough, especially on aliance side IMO you just see 15-20 same players farming WSG every day.  PvP imbalace in BGs is BIG problem and if you can solve this somehow you have my respect. Regards, Ironz.

And what destroys peoples will to play solo que bg's?

Premade groups are much more in the matching que due to their matches lasting 4-10minutes while yolo vs. yolo could take an hour if its an even match. Even if its 8 games which 2 are premades there would still be yolo people against premades much more than you've lead to understand. That breaks morale and interest for bg's and thus theres only few games going on at peak times and you get ~75% premades against you if not more.

[Ironz 0]

Well, WSG became totally unplayable for random players, because aliance did not joining it without premade anymore

[Mario Aguilar 0]

Random players cannot achieve victory. You need select, dedicated players to gather.

[terro 0]

no point to contiue here , ill try kronos 3 , look like they have more players and alot of good chances that support casual player too . GL try farm some honor without a stabil group

[devd 0]

My suggestion would simply be, create a character on the horde side/community manager, staff member, or whatever status you have - try doing an effort as a player "put time in to grind potions, gear etc" and then try to use 10hrs a day for a week to get honor in WSG. 

IF you after a week still have the opinion that nothing is wrong, and the factions simply are devided in to alliance simply have more hardcore raiders and are more experienced, then dont make a change. 

[haterz 0]

I agree that WSG is unplayable as horde atm and I do not agree that horde is in equal conditions and "also has premades". As far as I know the only premade horde has is chinese players from "Bright of Shine", which play at night EU time while all alliance premades are offline. There is also a Snicklerfirtz team, but they rarely q up as premade and mostly play solo, so I would not count them

In the meantime there are up to 3 (!) premades on Alliance side every single day, they start playing at noon and stop at late night (for example, 3AM server time yestreday).

It's impossible to dodge them, because this sever rarely has more than 3 BGs running, especially with recent online drop from 4k to 2k on weekends and above problem is one of the reasons of this drop. Also, I feel like there is much less alliance queuing, sometimes you have to wait up to 30 minutes in q to face the same premades, while their games take 6 minutes and they get instant q procs.

Even if you have tons of time to play every day, suggestions to "make your own premade" would not work, because you will end up playing against full epic geared raid full of r13-12 guys, while 80% your team will have 2 r7 set pieces in best case, cos you can't get more by getting farmed on GY 9 of 10 games.

Edited April 7, 2018 by haterz

[Mario Aguilar 0]

Seems there is just more love for being an ally than there is a horde. Devote your cause.

[haterz 0]

what we rn is 1 concurrent WSG running and ~15 horde players at WSG q mob in Orgrimmar with 100% chance to face alliance premade

 

 

[IceKnight366 0]

On 3/27/2018 at 3:11 AM, kretzoo said:

wrong mate!, im human, im getting 22 rep/flag :))

42000/22*2,5=4772,72 hours to get exalted with WSG. or 192 days of playing 24/24

Then you just answered your own question; get in a premade!  I just recently started focusing more on BGpvp instead of Wpvp and immediately lost 6 games in a row because I joined as a pub vs a premade.  Thus, I know what you're talking about.  So guess what I did?  I found 8+ like-minded dudes in world chat who wanted to make a premade like me and I instantly won the next 7/8 games.  There are ways to win, so stop complaining.  If you don't want to take advantage of those ways than that's your fault.

[IceKnight366 0]

On 3/27/2018 at 12:14 AM, terro said:

no one deny this. since AV and WSG get online i use honorspy. And as i told you before the standings are the same before premates and after  ( for 1-30 @ last ) and is normal to be like that becouse those ppl used alot of time for it. you need to understand hows game works. Promote in ranks are based on the amount of ppl that  take honor in that week, that means that a person who give pvp alot of time need also other ppl to play. without those casual ppl harcore farmers  will get stuck too. So to have pvp need to keep game atractive for casuals too. You have like 3 big hardcore premates in aly side , and ike the same on horde side, horde side dodge aly premates (allways you will see just 1 horde player who enter and the rest join "if is ok") that means you have only casuals vs premates matches

if a casual player have 1 hour to spend ( before or after raid dont matter when) he can spend it in pvp ( and then is a win-win   - hardcore pvp farmers need casual in order to have progress) and dont worry noone will get r14 playnd 1 -2 hour /day pvp. 

So yes if you wish to farm honor you need to have care of casuals too

From what I could make out of what you said, I agree with it.

I'm not saying causal players shouldn't play WoW.  What I am saying is that if you're a causal player, don't complain that you aren't getting epic gear.  Casual gear is for the casual player.  Epic gear is for the committed player.

[kretzoo 0]

7 hours ago, IceKnight366 said:

Then you just answered your own question; get in a premade!  I just recently started focusing more on BGpvp instead of Wpvp and immediately lost 6 games in a row because I joined as a pub vs a premade.  Thus, I know what you're talking about.  So guess what I did?  I found 8+ like-minded dudes in world chat who wanted to make a premade like me and I instantly won the next 7/8 games.  There are ways to win, so stop complaining.  If you don't want to take advantage of those ways than that's your fault.

u missed my point, i usually played in a premade(i now rerolled on K3) and there was no fun at all camping u guys in GY. had like 8-9 min wins, with horde players trying to hide and waiting to end. does it seems to u fun? why would u continue to play if u know u will get camped in GY? Last time i played the q's were like 30 minute, because there was no players on horde side, there were like 5-6 groups on alliance and 1-2 on horde side. as i said, pvp must be balanced, or pvp will be dead. with the k3 release im pretty curious how things are going atm.

[Mario Aguilar 0]

Funny thing about that I believe K3 is like 20% horde.... Seems like the slant is universal in some senses. Imagine how the Qs will be?

[kretzoo 0]

10 hours ago, Mario Aguilar said:

Funny thing about that I believe K3 is like 20% horde.... Seems like the slant is universal in some senses. Imagine how the Qs will be?

52%H - 48%A, ur beliefs are wrong..there are 2-3 bg's on every step 10-19, 20-29, 30-39, etc. thats on wsg, there is also AB running...so im guessing there might be some fast q's in 2-3 months when most of them will be 60.

[Knines 0]

Hello everyone, I just wanted to weigh in on this thread a bit.

The announcement of Classic WoW had me listening to the zone music on youtube, which got me all nostalgic, which led me to leveling a few toons to 20 on starter retail. But man that is not the same game I remember. And my old server has none of the familiar faces... But I digress.

I was one of the last High Warlords on my server, two months before BC, and even back then this was a very common topic.  My team would stomp noobs all day, mostly geared in t2 with special guest ex high warlords from time to time, but when those Naxx geared raiders came to play it often got ugly. On bad days we were graveyard camped and on good days we occasionally had 2-3 hour games of Warsong Gulch where we might eke out a single victory. 

Now, personally, I know all about time commitments to a game. From rank 11-14 I was playing up to 22 hours a day for over a month, living on Mountain Dew and Pizza pockets. But I was never a raider. I despise PVE content. And in Vanilla WoW, there was simply no way to get comparably good gear without slaying pretend monsters. Blizzard never showed that they cared too much about PVPers. It was definitely an afterthought. There were 2 premades Horde side, mostly geared in Tier 2, on our server, and about 5 on Alliance, but only one team geared with Tier 3. 

I will say that it was always fun to win, and sometimes it was still fun to lose a close game, but it was NEVER fun to be so outgeared that no matter how skilled of a team I had we would wind up graveyard camped because of a gear disadvantage that we as PVP focused players could do nothing about unless we wanted to devote our lives to PVE first and PVP second (whereas the PVE players were using PVP as a way to unwind after raids). Now, sure, someone could say, "well that's Vanilla! If you want to win at PVP you have to have the best gear and if you want to have the best gear you have to be a hardcore PVE player," But, really, fuck that noise, because this isn't 2006 and there is a better way.

I don't know what the better way is, per se, but the idea we had at the time was to create an Instance of BGs worth more honor which required players to be equipped with balanced sets of battlegear. Otherwise, another solution might be to offer better gear rewards for PVP (or any rewards in general), because, yeah, it sucks to queue up 5 times, get stomped, and have nothing to show for it. And before someone says "but that's not Vanilla," let me remind you that we are no longer in 2005. Blizzard had a lot of things to balance trying to make as much money as possible on thier PVE RPG adventure. I achieved High Warlord and remember what it was like. Attempting to preserve the purity of the PVP system to maintain the integrity of Vanilla is simply looking at the past with rose tinted glasses. It's not necessary.

All that said, the reason I was on these forums was because I am looking for a way to play Vanilla BGs, but reading this thread, I have to say, I'm a bit turned off by the idea of trying to start a toon, leveling a toon to 60 with the intent of BG based PVP, and reaching an endgame that is already dying or dead. I'd love to play Vanilla WoW, but only if the massive amount of time I am investing in the community also feels acknowledged and rewarded as much as those investing just as much time in another part of the game.

 I don't think I'll be joining this time, but I do wish you all luck in figuring it out.

Edited April 11, 2018 by Knines

[Frankenberry 1]

I suppose I should weight in here in this thread. I guess I'm one of the people who "Killing the server". At least according to the title of thread.

I think some of the horde players here got one important thing wrong: If you make a premade vs. premade priority system I don't really see how that would solve anything for you guys. I'm not even against such a system but the problem is mainly that there is a gap between how many horde- and alliance players that are queue'ing for WSG. This is quite normal. Back in vanilla this was the case (at least on the servers I played on) and from I've heard from my teammates and guildies it's the same on other current private servers. You won't magically have more alliance "pug" players queue'ing just because you make premade vs. premade priority.

Why not? Because alliance pug's lose bigtime vs. horde pugs so they are discouraged from playing and queue'ing. Another reason is that horde is the go-to faction for players interested in PvP. I don't know if it's due to the racials being a bit more focused on PvP for horde, the elemental shaman and his burst damage or if there is a different mentality when it comes to pvp for horde players. It's just my experience that more players on horde side care about pvp.

So in my opinion I can't see how changes to premades would really make a difference for you guys.

To back this even further up one thing I've noticed is that some people on the Nighthaven discord often complain about the queue's and ask alliance to start queue'ing up. It's mainly done when we aren't playing. Usually on NA times or on mondays and tuesdays. So it's not just a problem about premades. It's also about  (almost) no american alliance players being interested in PvP which leads to horrible queue time at night (server time). I can say that we have americans playing on our team because Americans interested in PvP play when they have someone to play with.So when we play - according to this thread - we destroy the pvp-scene on horde and when we don't play - according to players on discord - we destroy the pvp scene on horde because of the queue times.

So I fail to see how changing the status of premades on alliance will make more alliance players queue up (which is the main problem. Not alliance premades).

Another important thing is that sometimes - often in fact - when we queue up we get dodged by horde premades (maybe they are full premades or maybe they are just 5 man queue'ing). Either way when you have some players who systematically dodge our team it does lead to other players facing our team more often which I can understand can be frustrating. A solution could be to give deserter to players who drop queue (They would still be able to switch from WSG -> AV though). This way you won't see player A never facing us premades and farming pugs while player B who plays straight up has a much harder time.

As for other solutions:

Wait for AB. It's not far away and there are a few important things about PvP in the upcoming patches that could help about this problem.

A) In AB the losing team gains some honour. Later on you also get 1 token even if you lose. If you lose in WSG you gain nothing. This is important because - I think - it's one of the main reason why almost no alliance "puggers" are queue'ing up. In pug vs pug alliance lose the vast majority of games. If the pugs lose in AB they will still gain something and thus be encouraged to queue up. WSG (and the current 0 "tokens" for a loss) is a bit more brutal in that regard.

B) The PvP is being updated soon which will encourage more players to try and farm it. Even the rank 7-10 items will become quite good for most classes and even useful in raids. Even before patch 1.9 hits it should encourage more players to queue up.

C) BG weekends. Double the honour should mean that more people will queue at the same time. This means there will be a smaller chance of facing a premade OR at least a really good one. If there a lot of semi-good premades queue'ing up you should easily be able to make one yourself to counter it. You don't need a full rank 12+ team. A handful of guildies with some MC gear and a discord should do just fine. On top of that you get double honour.

However with all that being said there is one there is one thing I have to get of my chest: Why are the people so interested in PvP on horde side not making their own premades? I simply don't understand this. The other night a few former alliance players that have faction changed to horde, quickly formed a premade and it was the best team we've faced in weeks. I'm not saying that alliance players - or former alliance players - are better than horde so I'm not trying to take a jab at horde players. I'm just wondering why it took (ex)alliance players to give us a fight. To me maybe part of the solution could be some of horde players  stepping up, making a solid premade and playing to win? Even if you don't  want to rank and play for hours every day. you could still play with a few guys on maybe 1-2 days a week for some hours. All it takes is some decent gear (blue gear and MC gear and some consumables is fine) and a discord.

I rarely check these forums - in fact this is the first time so I apologize for responding slowly (or not at all) if someone will comment on what I've wrote.

-Lurpakken

[Gnog 1]

27 minutes ago, Frankenberry said:

However with all that being said there is one there is one thing I have to get of my chest: Why are the people so interested in PvP on horde side not making their own premades? I simply don't understand this. 

-Lurpakken

When we form a premade on the horde side, we wait in queues of 30 minutes, an hour, or more. Usually the premade breaks after one or two games, just because of how boring it is to sit around waiting for a game.  Then we are down 2-3 people, and the premade comp doesn't work as well anymore.  Then we go do other things, or the real 'rankers' start to solo queue for faster queues. 

[Frankenberry 1]

1 minute ago, Gnog said:

When we form a premade on the horde side, we wait in queues of 30 minutes, an hour, or more. Usually the premade breaks after one or two games, just because of how boring it is to sit around waiting for a game.  Then we are down 2-3 people, and the premade comp doesn't work as well anymore.  Then we go do other things, or the real 'rankers' start to solo queue for faster queues. 

Sounds like NA queue times. When we finally have premades playing us they often face us with instant queue's (3+ games in a row).

[Gnog 1]

2 minutes ago, Frankenberry said:

Sounds like NA queue times. When we finally have premades playing us they often face us with instant queue's (3+ games in a row).

Yes, we are NA.  I think we will get more participation during the Asia/EU playtimes once AB comes out. Would still like to see some minor changes that encourage PvP participation.  We probably need about 30-50 more active alliance pvpers to have a good player pool. 

[Frankenberry 1]

5 minutes ago, Gnog said:

Yes, we are NA.  I think we will get more participation during the Asia/EU playtimes once AB comes out. Would still like to see some minor changes that encourage PvP participation.  We probably need about 30-50 more active alliance pvpers to have a good player pool. 

I hate to break it to you but the alliance NA players that are interested in PvP play EU / Asia times. Generally there aren't that many NA players left on Alliance side. A few days back one of the few NA guilds left disbanded even though they cleared BWL =(
And it's definitely has nothing to do with alliance premades at that hour because we don't at those hours. We are sleeping ;)

If you want to play PvP as an NA player you kind of have to what our NA players do: play at hours that are not optimal for you to get decent queue times. That's just how it is on a server mainly populated by non-NA players =(

Edited April 16, 2018 by Frankenberry