hit rating

[firkraag 0]

Hello everyone.

I want to ask your opinion about hit rating on tank preraid and raid gear, none seems to mention it in any tank guides,but playing without any hit can affect performance.Personally ,i hate when i see that ''miss'' message on my abilities and i waste my rage points without doing important threat.

So, what do you guys think about this, and what hit gear would u recommend for preraid and raid tanking gear.

[Undertanker 88]

Hit rating is TBC. Vanilla is Hit %

When your guild is entering raid, 3 hit is good. should cover 500 DPS from your raid.

When they are doing good dps, 6 hit is good and should cover 700 DSP from your raid

When they are doing great dps, 8 hit will bring you to 0.6% chance to miss and is good for high end raid damage. 9 hit pre AQ gear you sacrifice other stats a bit too much.

 

 

Edit to move 5.6% caps until proven otherwise.

Edited December 9, 2016 by Undertanker

[firkraag 0]

Thanks for the replay,and what hit% items do your recommend rolling with at preraid and raidgear level (without gimping the char too much) , since every single guide focuses on stacking +def gear .

[Rageward 0]

Due to the nature of fights in vanilla and the gear available to you at this level of play , I'd say going for hit rating at a pre-raid gear level is premature and you would most likely suffer alot "stats" wise , you could for example use the satyrs bow that offers some hit rating that doesn't require you to sacrifice a huge amount of stats , but in the end you want to get def/stam/str as much as possible so that when you do end up raiding you arent squishy , hit rating only really became a very important stat during late tbc , during vanilla for atleast the first 2 tiers there wasnt much hit gear you could get that wouldn't reck the other stats that you are trying to aquire.

[Undertanker 88]

Ignore Apollo.

 

You'll need +3 hit if your DPS is pushing 500+ DPS.

 

Now to properly answer your question.  Depending on what server you are on your item availability will differ.  If ZG is out a good starter set is the Darksoul set:

 

Darksoul Shoulders  Darksoul Leggings  Darksoul Breastplate   great stam and almost 7 def per slot.

 

Also in ZG: Band of Jin  and Belt of Preserved heads  and Sacrificial Gauntlets If AV is out:  Don Julio's Band   Like Apollo said- If DM is out: Satyr's bow and also get Tarnished Elven Ring and Beads of Ogre Might  If Warrior quest is out: Razorsteel Shoulders - I would take the Flask if I were you though once you get other gear, it may come in handy for TPS if rage starved.   

 

If in dire need you can always get from UBRS: Battleborn Armbracers since there are not any great bracers before T0.5 bracers available those can do with +9 stam enchant.

 

If on Fresh Server, Naglering stats were different and doesn't have +def but has 1 hit.  - from BRD.   Once 5 man loot gets updated to final items you can get: 

 

Mara: Blackstone Ring

 

 

If off tanking in raid, I'd say go 2 hit or less when starting off and stack stam/def where you can.   MT NEEDS 3+ when first starting in raids if your melee have their proper pre-raid BiS gear.

 

So pick what you can (don't need more than 3 hit when starting) get a feel for your dps as you go and increase as you need if you find you start losing aggro.

Edited December 2, 2016 by Undertanker

[Roflcakes 7]

Agree with Undertanker, having around 3% hit is a good benchmark for pre-raid. 

 

It is important that you are able to connect with your abilities as optimal DPSer that are really pushing their boundaries will be right behind you on threat. 

 

Your weakest slots in terms of defence gains per slots used will be your Ranged/Rings/1 trinket (Given that Force of Will is preBiS and your other trinket). This make Satyr's Bow (1.3), Don Julio's band (1.6) and even Guard of the Rune Captain (added 1.5) particularly good combo for getting you the 3% hit pre raid. Having these items means you don't sacrifice other pieces which you can gain defence/avoidance from. 

[Undertanker 88]

Do note Guard of the Rune Captain is Horde only. An alli will opt ring 2, neck, braver slot for that early 3rd hit.

Edited December 2, 2016 by Undertanker

[Undertanker 88]

You don't need 440 def in MC. Progression, 75+ is good, 3 hit, rest stam.

Not saying more def is bad, just 75 from gear (85 from talents) is a great starting point to hold your own.

Edited December 2, 2016 by Undertanker

[slippery 4]

vael tank needs 5%+

rest idk

[Nocturn 4]

Tanks should prioritize getting to 8% hit above all else. Like Undertanker said, you don't need any 440 def for any encounter in mc, and only 1 maybe 2 encounters in BWL and by that time, you would have acquired more def gear to use when appropriate. After that you want Agility and Crit gear and also focus on getting any extra AP because these will all help hold threat even more.

 

You want to end fights quicker, having your abilities not miss and having the dps able to engage the targets immediately while going all out is the best may to mitigate damage, fights last shorter, healers heal less and you get a faster better run for everyone. 

 

Most of the BiS lists that are posted on every warrior forum i highly disagree with, they prioritize getting 440 defense above everything, for example Gyth's skull is pre-raid BiS when i would say Lionheart is not just pre raid BiS but BiS till AQ (unless you're swapping out for 440 on say Chromag, but you'd have t2 helm by this point)

 

Stat prioritization should be Hit>Stam>Agil>Crit>Strength>AP>Def while keeping around 375ish Defense. 

Edited December 3, 2016 by Nocturn

[Haestingas 30]

It depends how good your dps is. Some guilds with mediocre dps the tank can get away with 3%. Really you just need to keep open communication with your DPS and ask them if they are threat capped constantly. If they are then you need to consider switching in more hit, and consuming and getting world buffs more. In guilds with tryhard world buffed dps the tank will really want 5% hit or better, full dps consumes with mongoose jujus and sharpening stones. You will want to get ROIDS, and use a lot of Mighty Rage Potions on threat capped fights where stoneshields arnt needed. The standout hit items are wristguards of trueflight, Band of Accuria, AV ring, gauntlets of might. Once DM is released Satyrs bow is very nice.

[firkraag 0]

ok, so it seems that i finally found ppl that agree with me that the preraid bis list  for prot warriors that u can see  everywhere is just copy pasted from forum to forum by ppl that dont understand raidtanking ,( its not just stacking def item over def item). .

ty guys.

[firkraag 0]

ps, someone should make a proper prot preraid item list.

[SpottedCow 2]

Why would you want to prioritize hit?  Each 1% increase in hit is going to be a 1% increase in TPS, on average.  In 5 man tanking, where you're trying to hold multiple mobs, misses become more important, because of variance and the reduced number of attacks directed at each mob, and I can see gearing for hit (especially because only a few mobs in 5 mans are lvl 63).  For raid tanking?  1% increase in TPS means you're seeing a 3-4 TPS increase per point of hit, which is not exactly massive.  For example, my revenge generates 577.82 raw threat over 1.5 seconds (GCD) for 385.21 TPS.  A 1% increase would be 3.85 TPS.  Basically, it's peanuts.  Unless you're missing enough for variance to really bite you in the попа, you don't care about hit at all.  It's very slightly better than crit until you hit the yellow cap (because Sunder can't crit, but you're only using Sunder when your SS and revenge are both on CD).

[Undertanker 88]

You are not factoring in your white hits in your bad example.

[SpottedCow 2]

And how do white hits change things?  A 1% increase in hit is a 1% increase in threat from your white damage (assuming you're NOT rage capped and replacing every white hit with HS), except your white damage is less TPS than any of your yellow abilities.  So let's say that you're using Finkle's Skinner (because that's ballpark best you're going to see when you enter MC), which is 41.2 DPS (with tank talents and in def stance, 67.75 TPS).  A 1% increase would be 0.68 TPS.  That 3-4 TPS I quoted above is your best case, that's for your high threat abilities (SS and revenge and HS *if* you're using a fast dagger).

Call it a bad example if you want, but if you're going to disagree, show me some numbers that back up hit being a worthwhile stat to gear for.  Saying you need it to hold threat is all well and good, but show some numbers as to how it helps.

[SpottedCow 2]

Basically, every additional point of threat that you generate is 1.375 extra DPS til cap for melee and 1.625 extra DPS til cap for ranged (most dps classes have a .8 threat modifier and you've got the 10% additional for melee and 30% additional for ranged).  So if you gear to 3% hit for your MC example and it averages to 3 TPS per point of hit, you're getting 9 TPS which gives 12.375 DPS til cap to melee and 14.625 DPS til cap for ranged.  So you're looking, at most, at a 2.5% potential increase in DPS for those dps members who are already threat capped.  So sure, if you're in a guild where everyone is a god at their class, you might see a noticeable increase in overall DPS.  But realistically, even if you have a couple raid members who are holding back a little, you're not going to see much difference.

I just don't see the reason behind gearing for hit.  And even if you feel that you're too buff to need more Def/Armor/Agi/Stam and you're struggling to generate enough threat, you'd get a bigger boost to TPS using Edgemaster's than replacing 3 pieces of tanking gear with hit gear (7 weapon skill works out to 4.04% reduced chance to miss/be parried/dodged/blocked as well as reducing the glancing blow DR from 30% to 9%).

[Cornholi 0]

I'm curious, where did you get the info that 7 weapon decreases your chance to miss/parried/dodged/blocked?

 

I know that at some point, 5 weapon skill reduces your chance to miss by 3% but I don't if that's accurate for vanilla.

[SpottedCow 2]

The weapon skill formula is:

Miss %: (mob defense - player weapon skill - 10) *0.4+7

 

That runs all the way up to 304.  At 305, the formula becomes:

 

Miss %: (mob defense - player weapon skill) *0.1+5

 

So your miss chance against lvl 63 (boss) is as follows:

 

9.0% @ 300

8.6% @ 301

8.2% @ 302

7.8% @ 303

7.4% @ 304

6.0% @ 305

5.9% @ 306

5.8% @ 307

5.7% @ 308

5.6% @ 309

5.5% @ 310

 

I pulled the numbers back when Nost was still around, don't remember where I got them from.  Would've either been from Nost or from an old EJ page.  I have a spreadsheet with all the numbers for it.  Dodge/Block/Parry formula doesn't change, it's (mob defense - player weapon skill) *0.04+5, so 5.6% for each of those 3 @ 300 weapon skill, 5.4% @ 305 and 5.32% @ 307.  I'll look to see if I can find the source material.

 

Edit: Oh, also, each point of weapon skill reduces the damage reduction from glancing blows (40% of hits vs. boss mobs) by 3%, from 30% at 300 weapon skill to a 0% reduction at 310 (however, a glancing blow still cannot crit because attacks are single roll).

 

Edit 2: Before anyone takes those numbers as gospel, let me find the source; the spreadsheet I have was just for me to compare gear for myself, so I don't know what was and wasn't tweaked around my stats on there.

Edited December 7, 2016 by SpottedCow

[Undertanker 88]

Those numbers were originally pulled from the WoW Wiki archives which were re-posted on the Nost forums.

.

 

Reason I stated you forgot to announce for white hits is because not only the TPS from the hit itself, but the rage gained from landing the hit converts into more TPS from using abilities that generate threat.

 

While previously on Nost and a few other projects, HS spamming due to being rage capped on ALL fights (except Onxyia and some MC bosses) was possible and being able to HS spam, hit wasn't very important for medium performing DPS.

 

That being said, a few of us in the community have verified where incoming rage generation from damage taken was in error on the server.   Long story short, at 60 you should get 1 rage from every 90 damage taken.   The formula was there on Nost and these other servers, HOWEVER; the conversion was being performed BEFORE damage reductions from armor where considered.

 

https://forum.elysium-project.org/index.php?showtopic=22647

 

How does this effect a tank?

 

Using a 63% physical damage reduction from armor tank.  4k damage done to 0 armored target  as our constant:

 

The tank will receive 1,480 damage taken.   /90 = 16.4 rage gained.   Enough for 1 Sunder armor (improved or not), but not enough for a shield slam.

 

On Nost you got the full 4,000 damage factored into the equation.  /90 = 44.4 rage gained.  Enough for 1 shield slam, 1 Sunder (1 point improved) and a revenge.

 

 

That is a whopping 170.73% increase of rage generation from incoming physical damage that we shouldn't have been getting.   We should be seeing this in the patch-notes prior to server relaunch.

 

 

Edit: removed 6% vs 8%.

Edited December 9, 2016 by Undertanker

[Haestingas 30]

Hit is not only important from a TPS standpoint, but its also incredibly important on boss pulls. Missing a shield slam on the pull can be a disaster if a lot of damage is already going out and a healer throws out a heal and gets agro. Hit is a no brainer once you have the minimum mitigation needed to survive.

 

You also overvalue weapon skill a ton, because if the nost rage generation is the same then you are spamming heroic strike which takes glancing off the table, which makes +weapon skill effectively useless.

[Undertanker 88]

Guess you didn't read my last post.

[Haestingas 30]

You saying they should be changing rage generation doesn't mean they will, and I even qualified my statement (because IF rage gen stays the same). But no please be more snarky and advocate your bad mitigation first theorycrafting that helped you tank for the 2nd worst NA ally guild on your previous server, and the ~45th best on Nost before it died.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Haestingas

[Uthrick 0]

You saying they should be changing rage generation doesn't mean they will, and I even qualified my statement (because IF rage gen stays the same). But no please be more snarky and advocate your bad mitigation first theorycrafting that helped you tank for the 2nd worst NA ally guild on your previous server, and the ~45th best on Nost before it died.

People actually track what is the 45th best guild on a vanilla server emulator of 12 year old content? Also, not to defend Undertanker as I have no horse in this e-race but your comment prior to your last came off as rather snarky itself. pot/kettle

[Volts 0]

Is there a different hit cap for instant special attacks like revenge and shield slam as opposed to on attack ones like heroic strike?