Practice Dummy HP modification

[Zappa 7]

Whenever someone is putting a suggestion into the forum, btw there actually is a suggestion forum here,

 

another "NOT BLIZZLIKE GTFO"-fanboy creeps out of his grave waving his bloody two-hander and tries to crit him:

 

Action Bar 1: CAPS LOCK

Action Bar 2: NOT BLIZZLIKE!

Action Bar 3: Wall of text or quotes

Action Bar 4: /shout Go play retail or fun server!

 

Even the holy blizz devs patched their game from 0.6 to 1.12.2 with tons of changes included!

 

Some suggestions would really improve the game without any vanilla-experience-loss.

 

Be open minded and listen!

[Storfan 24]

Whenever someone is putting a suggestion into the forum, btw there actually is a suggestion forum here,

 

another "NOT BLIZZLIKE GTFO"-fanboy creeps out of his grave waving his bloody two-hander and tries to crit him:

 

Action Bar 1: CAPS LOCK

Action Bar 2: NOT BLIZZLIKE!

Action Bar 3: Wall of text or quotes

Action Bar 4: /shout Go play retail or fun server!

 

Even the holy blizz devs patched their game from 0.6 to 1.12.2 with tons of changes included!

 

Some suggestions would really improve the game without any vanilla-experience-loss.

 

Be open minded and listen!

I will fight any attempt to corrupt vanilla with TOOTH AND NAIL.

[Taurior 2]

"Servant of Allistarj" is a "banished" invulnurable mob in Blasted Lands that people in vanilla would hit for long stretches of time in order to test proc-rates in various abilities, items and lvl wep-skill. These fill the same function as a practice-dummy would.

I start to think you're not even trying to understand what I am saying.

 

I said before:

" testing Glancing blows or testing wether certain bonuses affect certain procs etc will not work on a banished target(Using flask to improve poison dmg or for example Deathbringer proc)  " 

 

Maybe you're not familiar with Glancing blows, in that case let me quote myself from the previous page:

"with the most accurate being chance depending on enemy level and dmg reduction starting at 35% to 0% depending on wep skill( 300 for 35% reduction and 0% at 315 if nost uses the Athan formula)."

 

You need to do damage in order to test glancing blows, which is not possible on banished targets, therefore they are not a good alternative for Practice dummies. They can only be used to test procs and to level-up your weapon skill, but are still not optimal for it.

 

 

 

Whenever someone is putting a suggestion into the forum, btw there actually is a suggestion forum here,

 

another "NOT BLIZZLIKE GTFO"-fanboy creeps out of his grave waving his bloody two-hander and tries to crit him:

 

Action Bar 1: CAPS LOCK

Action Bar 2: NOT BLIZZLIKE!

Action Bar 3: Wall of text or quotes

Action Bar 4: /shout Go play retail or fun server!

 

Even the holy blizz devs patched their game from 0.6 to 1.12.2 with tons of changes included!

 

Some suggestions would really improve the game without any vanilla-experience-loss.

 

Be open minded and listen!

 

This exactly, this forum is to allow for suggestions and so people can give feedback on those suggestions on why they would or would not want it implemented.

and if you don't like it you can go back to retail   

 

 

I'm pretty sure Storfan just solo shut you down Taurior.

 

Just sayin, maybe it isn't worth arguing at this point.

 

Please refrain from further posting in this topic, you clearly are not here for the reason this topic was created, let's keep it clean and on topic.

[Xykaru 1]

Said it before I'll say it again. It makes no difference giving invulnerable targets more HP.

[Storfan 24]

I start to think you're not even trying to understand what I am saying.

 

I said before:

" testing Glancing blows or testing wether certain bonuses affect certain procs etc will not work on a banished target(Using flask to improve poison dmg or for example Deathbringer proc)  " 

 

Maybe you're not familiar with Glancing blows, in that case let me quote myself from the previous page:

"with the most accurate being chance depending on enemy level and dmg reduction starting at 35% to 0% depending on wep skill( 300 for 35% reduction and 0% at 315 if nost uses the Athan formula)."

 

You need to do damage in order to test glancing blows, which is not possible on banished targets, therefore they are not a good alternative for Practice dummies. They can only be used to test procs and to level-up your weapon skill, but are still not optimal for it.

 

 

 

 

This exactly, this forum is to allow for suggestions and so people can give feedback on those suggestions on why they would or would not want it implemented.

and if you don't like it you can go back to retail   

 

 

 

Please refrain from further posting in this topic, you clearly are not here for the reason this topic was created, let's keep it clean and on topic.

 

It has already been established that Nostalrius uses Athan's formula, this needs to further testing to confirm, it was done on the old forum.

[Shayss 43]

 

Please refrain from further posting in this topic, you clearly are not here for the reason this topic was created, let's keep it clean and on topic.

 

Wants clean thread. Tries to antagonise me. Sigh...

 

Not worth it indeed.

[Taurior 2]

It has already been established that Nostalrius uses Athan's formula, this needs to further testing to confirm, it was done on the old forum.

Mind giving me a link to the test which confirms the use of the formula, and that it has been scripted correctly?

[Conan 5]

   Taurior you must understand this is a Vanilla community. The retail community wants changes, changes and more changes all the time because Blizzard accustomed players to that way of things and now they can't live without frecuent monthly changes, constant new content that modify a lot of things in a short span of time so now they have the patience of 5-years old kids that wants everything thrown at their hands with little to no effort of their part.

   Vanilla community is the OPPOSITE, we feel the game was more fun to play in the first version, so we want the game PRESERVED as it was like in the good old days and don't really want CHANGES that start to modify the game because that's what blizzard did and we all know what happened. Little changes will lead to other little changes that will lead to more little changes and before we know it we will have people in the forums asking for 'cosmetic pets', pokemons, barbie sets, cash shop, instant XP boosts and all kinds of sh¡t that ruined retail.

   The Nost/Elysium devs has stated VERY CLEARLY that they will PRESERVE the game we all loved and that's the main reason we are all here supporting them till the very end.

   You have Kronos, Feenix and retail that already have implemented the changes you want so, I don't understand what are you doing here, this is not your place.

 

 

Whenever someone is putting a suggestion into the forum, btw there actually is a suggestion forum here,

 

another "NOT BLIZZLIKE GTFO"-fanboy creeps out of his grave waving his bloody two-hander and tries to crit him:

 

Action Bar 1: CAPS LOCK

Action Bar 2: NOT BLIZZLIKE!

Action Bar 3: Wall of text or quotes

Action Bar 4: /shout Go play retail or fun server!

 

Even the holy blizz devs patched their game from 0.6 to 1.12.2 with tons of changes included!

 

Some suggestions would really improve the game without any vanilla-experience-loss.

 

Be open minded and listen!

 

   These trolls are really nasty! Get out of here with your 'suggestions' and 'open-mindedness' to the place you came from. We know very well what we want ( We think we do and we do) and your 'suggestions' will not have any effect. We want the game PRESERVED as it was.

Edited December 9, 2016 by Conan

[Xykaru 1]

 Get out of here with your 'suggestions' and 'open-mindedness' to the place you came from.

Lol @ get your suggestions out of the suggestion forum!

[Taurior 2]

   Taurior you must understand this is a Vanilla community. The retail community wants changes, changes and more changes all the time because Blizzard accustomed players to that way of things and now they can't live without frecuent monthly changes, constant new content that modify a lot of things in a short span of time so now they have the patience of 5-years old kids that wants everything thrown at their hands with little to no effort of their part.

   Vanilla community is the OPPOSITE, we feel the game was more fun to play in the first version, so we want the game PRESERVED as it was like in the good old days and don't really want CHANGES that start to modify the game because that's what blizzard did and we all know what happened. Little changes will lead to other little changes that will lead to more little changes and before we know it we will have people in the forums asking for 'cosmetic pets', pokemons, barbie sets, cash shop, instant XP boosts and all kinds of sh¡t that ruined retail.

   The Nost/Elysium devs has stated VERY CLEARLY that they will PRESERVE the game we all loved and that's the main reason we are all here supporting them till the very end.

   You have Kronos, Feenix and retail that already have implemented the changes you want so, I don't understand what are you doing here, this is not your place.

 

 

 

   This trolls are really nasty! Get out of here with your 'suggestions' and 'open-mindedness' to the place you came from. We know very well what we want ( We think we do and we do) and your 'suggestions' will not have any effect. We want the game PRESERVED as it was.

 

I very well know that this is a vanilla community, I have been part of the vanilla community for a long time I've played on most of the vanilla private servers. I also want to preserve the vanilla experience, and as I already stated before, THAT is exactly why I want the dummies to be there, it's not like I am asking to throw a bomb of game changing features out there, I simply ask for a easy modification that will let us test if mechanics are really working the way they did. I have already stated this earlier, so please read the other posts.

 

The suggestion section is here for a reason, and I'm tired of people saying "Get back to retail" "get back where you came from".

 

You're acting as if a minor change that will help us test if things work like they should will result in the total destruction of azeroth with kazzak leaving us for some planet and deathwing reigning fire on the world. this is total bullshit and you know it. The devs will not let this happen(you even stated this yourself).

 

And just because I want to test these things to make sure it's blizzlike I do not belong on this server? what kind of bullshit is that. I simply want to help make vanilla great again(see what I did there?). Keep in mind that I am just making a SUGGESTION, I do not get why people instantly feel attacked every time someone makes a SUGGESTION.

 

I feel like all you guys read is "suggestion" and immediately you go full fanboy as Zappa acurately put it and start attacking the person. How about you actually read the suggestion, then think how it will impact your gameplay, and then give feedback like a normal adult. 

 

So, let me ask you one thing, what is your reason not to modify the HP of the dummies? ( and don't give me that blizzlike(read the post again) or small changes lead to mass destruction bullshit)

[Conan 5]

   Taurior the last three lines of my post was not meant for you. It was meant for Zappa and trolls like him. By no means I called you 'nasty' nor any of the things I said in the last paragraph.

   You are not a troll and you have a valid point, it's just that I don't agree; and my reasons I already posted it in the first part of my last post.

   We have vanilla now because of the effort of Nost devs first and now Nost/Elysium devs together, but really even with all the effort of the world they wouldn't had accomplished anything without the vanilla community keeping itself together and supporting them through the hard times. So understand we have vanilla NOW not because of Blizzard, we have it because of all of us together (Nost/Elysium team, gms, all are community too). We feel that modifications and little changes may possibly lead to unforeseen consequences.

   This is the reason many of us react in this way to changes to the game and many feel modifications (as little as may seem) as corruption and degeneration that will lead slowly away from the true spirit of the original game.

Edited December 10, 2016 by Conan

[dvergur 0]

6. By "fix the many problems with vanilla", do you also mean making all class specs raid-viable? Balancing PvP between all classes? Where do you draw the line here? It's better to set a HARD and FIRM precedent here, which is what Nostalrius devs has done and I hope they will continue to do.

"Problems" was left intentionally vague. There are many things we can almost all agree would improve the game without any negative effects, making the AH less annoying, many aspects of the chat and /who. I would personally be willing to make much more radical changes, but these are changes that the original devs probably would have accepted had they not been busy with more sexy matters, such as new content and expansions.

 

Wouldnt that be TBC in the end?

Some aspects would, but the devs had to make fundamental changes in TBC to sell it or people would complain about it being the same old thing. In a perfect world Blizzard would just have kept releasing new content and tweaking the game without making too many fundamental changes, and we wouldn't need this vanilla nostalgia and we could just enjoy retail. Blizzard's greed led us, and them, astray.

[Xykaru 1]

Said it twice before, I'll say it again. Giving invulnerable targets more HP doesn't make a lick of difference.

 

 I am extremely die-hard for Vanilla and I do NOT approve of any changes, let alone the ones made to accommodate higher population. However, changes HAVE been made. Quality of life changes, in fact. Not to mention game-play regulations that didn't exist on Vanilla realms. If giving immune targets more health is such a problem for you die-hards, then perhaps you should reevaluate why you enjoy Vanilla so much. Bickering over how much HP the Zeppelin has is pretty pointless, don't you think?

 

   There's many foolish goobers trying to obtain QoL changes here. I simply don't see giving invulnerable targets more HP to be game changing even at the very, very, very most slightest, minuscule way.  As long as that HP reverts and/or scales back down completely parallel to the original hit point count prior to gaining 12904812894324238 HP immunity upon losing immunity (think Paladins bubble hearthing), there is no actual difference whatsoever and frankly nobody would even be able to notice nor calculate it because it's a non-existent variable.

 

   I recall that dummies took full damage. I do not recall them only showing 64 damage total per hit. Based on that memory, I don't even see the point of this thread.

[Zappa 7]

Dear Taurior, before taking anything seriously what this guy Conan has to say

 

do yourself a favor and read what he writes on another thread here a while ago:

 

https://forum.elysium-project.org/index.php?showtopic=23270&hl=

 

Warning it´s creepy and obviously created under the influence of bath salts!

 

Warning Spoiler:

 

 

But I prefer to call myself a "lone wolf" who just read too much and after many years finally found the cause of all the corruption and degeneration in the world (I knew it had to have a CAUSE) and the REAL MAKERS and CREATORS of history and civilization in the planet (I knew that evolution stuff was just crap).

 

okay back to topic...

Edited December 10, 2016 by Zappa

[Conan 5]

   That is off-topic of course and don't belong to this thread. And if you don't grasp what I said in that post is not my problem; is YOURS. (though I'm pretty sure you trolls understand very well every word I said there).

 

   Debating with someone who call people 'drugged' or 'nuts' because they don't comprehend some DEEP things is a waste of time.

Edited December 10, 2016 by Conan

[Aslan 0]

Isnt it amazing how much of a good discussion this is with back and forth arguments about why target dummies should be modified or why not? Oh wait, that was before Zappa appeared.

[Zarant 2]

Training dummies does add some QoL but it removes some of the vanilla feel, where you had to go out in the world to do stuff, right now as it is, it requires a group effort to test out some of the game mechanics. As mentioned before, you have options to do it, but it requires you to go to contested zones, where something else may or may not be happening there. And that is great about vanilla, you gather your friends and you do stuff, you interact with the world, instead of just being afk in a town waiting for something to happen.

[criboee 1]

Keep your custom content ideas away form Nostalrius, please

[Taurior 2]

Training dummies does add some QoL but it removes some of the vanilla feel, where you had to go out in the world to do stuff, right now as it is, it requires a group effort to test out some of the game mechanics. As mentioned before, you have options to do it, but it requires you to go to contested zones, where something else may or may not be happening there. And that is great about vanilla, you gather your friends and you do stuff, you interact with the world, instead of just being afk in a town waiting for something to happen.

 

Like I've said before: It's to test if the nostalrius scripts are working as intended, not to test out how something worked back in vanilla, that information can be found all over google. It will not remove some of the vanilla feel, as the amount of people that are actually going to use it is really small(probably less than 0.01%). Without dummies you'd have 3 people half-afking doing nothing but autohitting a boss or ocasionally throwing a heal, while still AFKing. plus, with the rule that you can not play 2 characters simultaniously outside of major cities you need the 2 extra members to be active at their PC being able to half-afk wow for several hours(you need thousands of autohits to accurately test some scripts) in a row without getting logged off etc. In retail vanilla you did not have to do this, as you know the scripts are blizzlike(obviously). 

 

Boosting the HP of practice dummies solves a problem that was not there on retail vanilla. I'll say it again: The information on how game mechanics worked back then are all found on google already.

 

 

An alternative for this problem is to release a PTR where players can test all the scripts they want, or make it possible for people to host their local nost server. Both of which are terrible alternatives as it takes too much effort/resources from elysium/nost devs.

 

You have to accept the fact that a private vanilla server is not retail vanilla. Its goal is to give people the experience of playing vanilla again. Practice dummies will allow us to help them achieving that goal. All they have to do is a small adjustment and let the community do the testing. allowing the devs to spend their time in other important stuff

 

Keep your custom content ideas away form Nostalrius, please

Keep your posts away from the Suggestion forums please, if you've got something useful to say, do it. otherwise just walk along.

[Zarant 2]

As far as game mechanics goes, you can find stuff on google, sure, but no one knew фекал back then, and we still don't, we have multiple sources of information and most of them are just a coarse approximations because of the lack of empirical data.

 

So its still a question worth exploring even today, because we don't know which combat formulas the server uses and if you want to pursue those answers you have to make an effort, put a group together to beat anacrhonos, level an alt just 3 levels below the servants in blasted lands, farm some low level item like the defias set that gives +weapon skill, anyway, there is a lot of stuff you can do but you have to be clever about it and explore the game itself to figure out.

 

Most of the data we have from wow in general was taken from EJ forums, which was basically a place where people gathered to discuss the game mechanics and only a tiny sliver of the wow community actually bothered to carry out research about it, however, the information gathered by those few individuals shaped the whole wow community, be it through guides, bis lists, stat weights and so on. The information you can gather from that process is extremely useful and it should be a community effort to figure them out and in that sense by not having training dummies you are recreating the same experience you had back then.

[Tholren 7]

The question I need to ask before supporting (or not) this idea is: does the inconvenience in testing dps make for a better vanilla experience? Is it part of vanilla wow to not have such ease of access to information?

 

Once we can agree on an answer, I'll throw my two cents.

[Taurior 2]

As far as game mechanics goes, you can find stuff on google, sure, but no one knew фекал back then, and we still don't, we have multiple sources of information and most of them are just a coarse approximations because of the lack of empirical data.

 

So its still a question worth exploring even today, because we don't know which combat formulas the server uses and if you want to pursue those answers you have to make an effort, put a group together to beat anacrhonos, level an alt just 3 levels below the servants in blasted lands, farm some low level item like the defias set that gives +weapon skill, anyway, there is a lot of stuff you can do but you have to be clever about it and explore the game itself to figure out.

 

Most of the data we have from wow in general was taken from EJ forums, which was basically a place where people gathered to discuss the game mechanics and only a tiny sliver of the wow community actually bothered to carry out research about it, however, the information gathered by those few individuals shaped the whole wow community, be it through guides, bis lists, stat weights and so on. The information you can gather from that process is extremely useful and it should be a community effort to figure them out and in that sense by not having training dummies you are recreating the same experience you had back then.

Having target dummies does not cause you to not farm low level stuff, the BL servants can not be used to test glancing blows as stated earlier in this topic, since they require you to do damage to the target, so it's useless to have a char 3 levels below them to test it. I can't think of any mechanic that has impact on the gameplay(like procs, glancing blows etc) of which no information is available.(Let me know if there is)

 

As a side note:

Retail vanilla had about 7.5 million subscribers, as you stated:  only a tiny sliver of the wow community bothered to carry out research about the mechanics. The chances that there will be people who thoroughly research mechanics when having to do thousands of hits is very small, even smaller if they have to wait for a respawn every 200k damage they do. ( keep in mind your healer can't go AFK during the autohit period as he has to heal the tank constantly). I have yet to find a person who is willing to actively do nothing but heal for a long time(time it takes to get enough autohits) without getting anything in return, as the data is not important for them ( then you still need someone that wants to tank, this is easier as he can afk a bit more, but still damn hard).

 

 

The question I need to ask before supporting (or not) this idea is: does the inconvenience in testing dps make for a better vanilla experience? Is it part of vanilla wow to not have such ease of access to information?

 

Once we can agree on an answer, I'll throw my two cents.

 

I do not see any value in testing dps on a practice dummy, they do not have the same armor value as any other lvl 63(boss) mob, they also do not have any other mechanics that may increase dps, the dps you do is dependent on your enemy, if you want to see how your dps is, use Realmplayers, there you can see your dps per boss/ overall dps on trash etc. (also something that is not blizzlike btw ) The only way it could matter is to test how your practice dummy dps changes if you use another item, which will be inaccurate if you don't actively have the same dps rotation for a long time.

I believe that should answer your questions, if you have further questions feel free to ask.

[Tholren 7]

I do not see any value in testing dps on a practice dummy, they do not have the same armor value as any other lvl 63(boss) mob, they also do not have any other mechanics that may increase dps, the dps you do is dependent on your enemy, if you want to see how your dps is, use Realmplayers, there you can see your dps per boss/ overall dps on trash etc. (also something that is not blizzlike btw ) The only way it could matter is to test how your practice dummy dps changes if you use another item, which will be inaccurate if you don't actively have the same dps rotation for a long time.

I believe that should answer your questions, if you have further questions feel free to ask.

 

Correct. However, I would like to remind you that external usage of websites to keep track of stats and meters has nothing to do with the game itself and its' core design philosophies. That being said, I do agree with the idea. But the dummies are mostly useless, even with increased hp.

[Zarant 2]

The servants behaviour changes from server to server, nost was one of the few that actually managed to get them working as intended, so yes, you can use them to test stuff.

[Taurior 2]

The servants behaviour changes from server to server, nost was one of the few that actually managed to get them working as intended, so yes, you can use them to test stuff.

Does working as intented mean they still take the dmg you deal to them, but just don't surpass 1 HP? This will make them more usable for testing, although you'd have to level a lvl 51/52 warrior purely to use it for testing, which will take at least 3 days of /played, which no one will be bothered to do.

 

 

Correct. However, I would like to remind you that external usage of websites to keep track of stats and meters has nothing to do with the game itself and its' core design philosophies. That being said, I do agree with the idea. But the dummies are mostly useless, even with increased hp.

The dummies are useless for anything but testing, that's why I suggested it, I expected people would not mind having it modified(which is true as only a few people are against it(mostly out of principle that it changes something so it's bad) compared to the total views)