Fresh Server Pvp-Set

[Taurior 2]

2 minutes ago, kenic said:

Weapons will get replaced in AQ40, not naxx.

What are you talking about? Having PvP gear be viable in PvE was exactly how it was meant to be and vice versa. That didn't change until tbc came out and they added resilience. If you don't update the PvP gear then PvPers will just get smashed by people in PvE gear more than they already do. And guess what? That's the exact reason they updated the gear in the first place. People in PvP gear were getting absolutely pounded by people in BWL and AQ40 gear so they were forced to update it.  "it's just how it was back in retail" my ass. You aren't the only one that played back then.

PVP gear is still viable in PVE, it's just not the best item you can get in PVE(PVP gear shouldn't dominate in PVE), I can be wrong about the weapons but to my knowledge AQ doens't have weps that beat the R14 weps, they're still a tad worse(I'd love to see which wep combo beats HWL in AQ). Maybe upgrading it after was efforts might be a better solution, but in order to say that you'd need to see what the exact impact is, aka see what piece is replaced when and what the differences are compared to the PVE equivelent.

But like I said, why make the PVP gear more usefu without making PVE weps more balanced with the PVP weps as you can get naxx weps form PVP in BWL patch, that's a huge difference in damage output. If you're changing one thing to improve the game for PVP oriented players, you have to change the other thing to improve the game for PVE oriented players too, you can't just boost one thing forcing PVE players to PVP. 

[Blib 14]

7 minutes ago, prsina said:

Except that it isn't, the vast majority of it being teribad. It's barely better than t1 while requiring an absurd ammount of time and dedication in a set period of time(decay eats you alice if you try to take it casual while higher rank) while t1 requires you to raidlog a few hours per week.

For which classes is it barely better than t1? If you're looking at caster gear on some database right now, you aren't seeing the stats it's gonna have ingame.

[Taurior 2]

2 minutes ago, Blib said:

For which classes is it barely better than t1? If you're looking at caster gear on some database right now, you aren't seeing the stats it's gonna have ingame.

If anyone is looking for the right stats http://rexas.tv/nostItems/ this website has most, if not all of the items from before the nost shutdown, 

[prsina 17]

37 minutes ago, Blib said:

For which classes is it barely better than t1? If you're looking at caster gear on some database right now, you aren't seeing the stats it's gonna have ingame.

For example, r12/13 mage chest and head give no spell damage at all, imagine staying like that until naxx LMAO

[Taurior 2]

 

4 minutes ago, prsina said:

For example, r12/13 mage chest and head give no spell damage at all, imagine staying like that until naxx LMAO

The blue PVP gear does have SP though, so you can just use that. Keep in mind that just because it's got a shiny purple color doens't mean that it is the best. the blue head/chest will def beat their T1 counterparts

https://gyazo.com/efa973aee50f51ec04ef924b2073a247

https://gyazo.com/d8d4672fc32d13295bacf5802d8a0d3e

https://gyazo.com/50443606a8f1b54d3b20bf50c2cbd6b9

https://gyazo.com/9d9e0838667e22d4852affbbdf0fdda6

[prsina 17]

9 minutes ago, Taurior said:

 

The blue PVP gear does have SP though, so you can just use that. Keep in mind that just because it's got a shiny purple color doens't mean that it is the best. the blue head/chest will def beat their T1 counterparts

https://gyazo.com/efa973aee50f51ec04ef924b2073a247

https://gyazo.com/d8d4672fc32d13295bacf5802d8a0d3e

https://gyazo.com/50443606a8f1b54d3b20bf50c2cbd6b9

https://gyazo.com/9d9e0838667e22d4852affbbdf0fdda6

Exactly, why would any1 push for higher ranks then, what are high rank premades gonna be like 5rogues vs 5 warriors? I repeat, there is no incentive to push for higher ranks if they don't decide to alter the timeline like nost did. Let's put it like this, if all your AQ gear was worse than naxx gear and there was nothing to gain from entering naxx, how many would devote the time and consumables needed in order to have a wipefest and progress in naxx when there is nothing to gain?

The server will be much healthier and there is no denying it, the blizzike fans fail to comprehend that a lot of things on Ely are not blizzlike to start with, why don't we campaign for progressive 1.2 talents, no BGs, no class revamps, old tier set models etc etc. if we fancy staying 100% blizzlike? I still haven't heard a good reason not to do it except for it being BiS until Naxx(which is BS as AQ gear outshines it by much) and it being non-blizzlike, completely ignoring the fact that a lot of the things aren't yet nobody is whining about them.

Edited January 2, 2017 by prsina
wall of text

[Taurior 2]

The thing I am wondering is: why is it so important to have many high ranks? PVP will be alive even without having high ranks, it's like high rankers do the server a favour by getting a high rank, you're doing it for yourself, not for the server. sure, with high ranks you're gonna have more premades stomping pugs and dodging other premades(only a small amount of the premades actually battle eachother as it's not great for the honor gain), but what real advantage is there in upgrading the gear if not for personal use. how I see it you just want to be rewarded more for choosing to spent a lot of time in PVP. If you want to be rewarded you have 2 options: go to nost PvP, get your naxx upgraded gear there, or play a rogue/war.

you play because it's fun I assume, sure, it's good to be rewarded for going full no-life for a couple of weeks, but no1 is forcing you to do so.

[prsina 17]

8 minutes ago, Taurior said:

The thing I am wondering is: why is it so important to have many high ranks? PVP will be alive even without having high ranks, it's like high rankers do the server a favour by getting a high rank, you're doing it for yourself, not for the server. sure, with high ranks you're gonna have more premades stomping pugs and dodging other premades(only a small amount of the premades actually battle eachother as it's not great for the honor gain), but what real advantage is there in upgrading the gear if not for personal use. how I see it you just want to be rewarded more for choosing to spent a lot of time in PVP. If you want to be rewarded you have 2 options: go to nost PvP, get your naxx upgraded gear there, or play a rogue/war.

you play because it's fun I assume, sure, it's good to be rewarded for going full no-life for a couple of weeks, but no1 is forcing you to do so.

You are going to have pugs stomped by premades anyway, it was like that in vanilla and it will be like that always. Organisation beats random afk pugs, why is this even brought up in this topic? Dodging is another problem we need to solve, but it has nothing to do with PvP gear update. I suggest we talk more about the solution to dodging in another thread. You're twisting it again, answer my question first and think about it. Would you expect anyone to go in Naxx if there is nothing to gain there? Keep in mind we are talking about a multiple week no life grind in order to gain something that is just better than T1 that drops in an outdated instance we do with 1.12.1 talents.

Elysium, if they decide to follow their timeline, will be the first vanilla server to do it and in return it will backfire. Not trying to rage, bash or anything, but Elysium devs had AQ in development for how long, 2 years or something? Judging by the track record, updated PvP gear inc 2020. Exactly, nobody is forcing us to do us, but we want to be properly rewarded and want the devs to realize the error of their ways, it's a tested solution, PvP gear upgrade did not ruin Nost or any servers before, but devs that failed to listen to the experienced crowds certainly were the undoing of many.

Edited January 2, 2017 by prsina

[Blib 14]

1 hour ago, prsina said:

For example, r12/13 mage chest and head give no spell damage at all, imagine staying like that until naxx LMAO

T1 chest + head=10sp, 4 fire sp, 17 stam pre ZG -> 32 stam 31 sp after ZG. (T2 helm + chest is even worse)

R13 chest + head pre update=54 stam and 2% crit, 74 stam with set bonus.

If you think 31 sp is worth the same as 22/42 stam and 2% crit for a mage in pvp, wsg especially, then you're clueless af. By AQ I'll admit it probably needs an update, but anything earlier than that is just ridiculous.

[Taurior 2]

1 hour ago, prsina said:

You are going to have pugs stomped by premades anyway, it was like that in vanilla and it will be like that always. Organisation beats random afk pugs, why is this even brought up in this topic? Dodging is another problem we need to solve, but it has nothing to do with PvP gear update. I suggest we talk more about the solution to dodging in another thread. You're twisting it again, answer my question first and think about it. Would you expect anyone to go in Naxx if there is nothing to gain there? Keep in mind we are talking about a multiple week no life grind in order to gain something that is just better than T1 that drops in an outdated instance we do with 1.12.1 talents.

Elysium, if they decide to follow their timeline, will be the first vanilla server to do it and in return it will backfire. Not trying to rage, bash or anything, but Elysium devs had AQ in development for how long, 2 years or something? Judging by the track record, updated PvP gear inc 2020. Exactly, nobody is forcing us to do us, but we want to be properly rewarded and want the devs to realize the error of their ways, it's a tested solution, PvP gear upgrade did not ruin Nost or any servers before, but devs that failed to listen to the experienced crowds certainly were the undoing of many.

I'm not twisting anything, I also never said that the gear upgrade is the cause of premades stomping pugs, nor did I say that about dodging, I just said, the more ppl rank high, the more premades will stomp pugs and will dodge, the only one that is twisting things is you. Gear is not the only reason people do something, there's plenty to do in naxx even if there would be no gear improvement for the players, the hardcore PVE guilds will battle for speed kills, top dmg, smallest raid clear, w/e you can think of, these challenges is what will keep PVE alive even without gear.

Everyone knows that elysium is not completely blizzlike, as it uses a 1.12.1 core, talents, models etc. hence why I didn't answer that question, it's a stupid question. As far as I know all the real changes that have been applied is to bring the server closer to blizzlike, not further away from it. ( I recall DM getting a hotfix so it's not as easy to farm or something, which is blizzlike as not everyone was farming DM back then.)

About the PVP update coming in 2020, that's bullshit, the timeline clearly states the expected release is sept 2018, they woulnd't put it on that date if they knew they won't make it, the elysium team has grown in numbers. The release may be delayed by a couple of months, we can't be sure. but that's a problem for then, not for right now.

And as stated before, if you want to be rewarded for PVPing more than you are right now, I suggest going to nost PVP or roll a warrior/rogue to get those OP weapons.

Talking about answering questions, answer me why you should update the pvp gear but not also change the warrior/rogue weapons to match their current content PVE weps.

Not updating the PVP gear will not ruin the server either, you're exaggerating a lot.

[prsina 17]

8 minutes ago, Blib said:

T1 chest + head=10sp, 4 fire sp, 17 stam pre ZG -> 32 stam 31 sp after ZG. (T2 helm + chest is even worse)

R13 chest + head pre update=54 stam and 2% crit, 74 stam with set bonus.

If you think 31 sp is worth the same as 22/42 stam and 2% crit for a mage in pvp, wsg especially, then you're clueless af. By AQ I'll admit it probably needs an update, but anything earlier than that is just ridiculous.

You do realize that is close to what we are asking, update it at ZG patch sounds as an ok spot for it.

[Blib 14]

2 minutes ago, prsina said:

You do realize that is close to what we are asking, update it at ZG patch sounds as an ok spot for it.

ZG patch is 5 months prior according to the timeline? If Elysium is anything like nost make that 8 months

[Larsen 3]

20 hours ago, void_echo said:

And there will be no point for anyone at all to rank after AQ/Naxx if they don't buff the PvP gear stats past Blizzlike. Why is one ok and the other isn't?

It's not as if everybody is in endgame BiS gear. The PvP gear is still quite good by then, just not anymore. It would be ridiculous if grinding hard for four months at the start of the server leaves you with the best gear in the game for the rest of all time.

The PvP gear wasn't meant to be the best gear that can be obtained, it was supposed to be a viable alternative to raiding for those who are more into PvP. The problem was always the rank system and the absurd amount of time it took. If it didn't take every waking hour for several months to get R13+, it would be completely fine for the gear to be second rate behind those who actually play the whole game instead of just mindless BGs all day.

It's not great for the server if the PvP gear isn't upgraded until 1.11, but it's no more irritating than having largely worthless T1 sets for months. PvP players just complain way more. Seeing the witless entitlement going on, I'm inclined to opine that if the PvP gear should be upgraded early, the weapons should be at the same time. That's quite reasonable as they're plainly overpowered in BWL.

In terms of balance against PvE gear, the upgraded epic PvP gear should technically be available no sooner than AQ. The blue sets are fine for the ZG patch, though. The only real argument against AQ is that it's a long time to wait when it's a fresh server that follows one where many players already did the same thing once. That's why doing it in 1.7 is relatively acceptable, even though it brings some problems to the itemization balance. It would be healthier for the server to wait until AQ, but there's no guarantee that the project will last that long.

Edited January 2, 2017 by Larsen

[void_echo 10]

11 hours ago, Taurior said:

what you're trying to do is to make a change which forces hardcore PVE players(even normal competative players)  to rank up to be able to get the best gear for PVE

And forcing hardcore PvP players (even normal PvPers) to do raid Naxx to be able to get the best gear for PvP is better because...?

[Larsen 3]

1 minute ago, void_echo said:

And forcing hardcore PvP players (even normal PvPers) to do raid Naxx to be able to get the best gear for PvP is better because...?

Because playing the actual game is the bloody point, not existing exclusively in this tiny bubble of 24/7 premades. By your logic, PvP players shouldn't need to level up, either. Is it so unthinkable that doing the most difficult content is the way to get the best rewards?

[void_echo 10]

5 minutes ago, Larsen said:

Is it so unthinkable that doing the most difficult content is the way to get the best rewards?

Yet getting R13/14 through PvP for your PvE usage is too difficult for you. PvP and PvE are both "the actual game".

Edited January 2, 2017 by void_echo

[Taurior 2]

2 minutes ago, void_echo said:

Yet getting R14 for your PvE is too difficult for you. PvP and PvE are both "the actual game".

You're forgetting the fact that even by playing casually you can still get those BiS PVE items, however, in order to get the PVP items, you have to go full no-life for a couple of weeks/months. you don't have to spend a lot of time in PVE to get those items maybe 4 hours each week, but to get the pvp items you have to PVP about 100 hours per week consecutively? how is that even remotely a good comparison. Also, the main activity in wow is PVE, the whole storyline is based on it, PVP is a side activity. I mean, I don't think you would hear ANYONE complain that they have to spend 4 hours a week to get BiS items.

[void_echo 10]

1 minute ago, Taurior said:

You're forgetting the fact that even by playing casually you can still get those BiS PVE items

So by that logic, PvP gear should be so much better than Naxx gear since it takes so much more effort to get, right?

[Taurior 2]

1 minute ago, void_echo said:

So by that logic, PvP gear should be so much better than Naxx gear since it takes so much more effort to get, right?

Huh? whut?  how? uhm?

Not sure what you draw that conclusion, I'm just stating a fact that obliterates your bad comparison

I'm just saying that the PVE gear is obtainable by anyone even without spending much time in PVE this is not possible for PVP. By saying this I am stating that your comment that having PVPers raid naxx(4 hours a week?) to get BiS gear is the exact same thing as forcing PVEers to HARDCORE PVP(100+ hours a week for multiple weeks) is a false comparison.

I hope that you now understand how bad your comparison was, and that you don't randomly type things that don't make sense

[void_echo 10]

3 minutes ago, Taurior said:

Huh? whut?  how? uhm?

Not sure what you draw that conclusion, I'm just stating a fact that obliterates your bad comparison

I'm just saying that the PVE gear is obtainable by anyone even without spending much time in PVE this is not possible for PVP. By saying this I am stating that your comment that having PVPers raid naxx(4 hours a week?) to get BiS gear is the exact same thing as forcing PVEers to HARDCORE PVP(100+ hours a week for multiple weeks) is a false comparison.

I hope that you now understand how bad your comparison was, and that you don't randomly type things that don't make sense

It's actually not the exact same thing, because PvP gear, in the final state of the server (i.e. Naxx patch) isn't BiS for PvE *or* PvP, while PvE gear is BiS for PvP *and* PvE. So it's even worse for PvPers.

Feel free to make the calculations of the time investment needed for both btw.

Edited January 3, 2017 by void_echo

[prsina 17]

1 minute ago, void_echo said:

It's actually not the exact same thing, because PvP gear, in the final state of the server (i.e. Naxx patch) isn't BiS for PvE, while PvE gear is BiS for PvP. So it's even worse for PvPers.

Feel free to make the calculations of time investment for both btw.

Could not have said it better.

[Oakenlix 79]

Just now, void_echo said:

It's actually not the exact same thing, because PvP gear, in the final state of the server (i.e. Naxx patch) isn't BiS for PvE *or* PvP, while PvE gear is BiS for PvP *and* PvE. So it's even worse for PvPers.

Feel free to make the calculations of the time investment needed for both btw.

It's not about the total time investment, more about time per week. Top PvE gear is realistically availiable for casual players, while top PvP is not.

[Taurior 2]

1 minute ago, void_echo said:

It's actually not the exact same thing, because PvP gear, in the final state of the server (i.e. Naxx patch) isn't BiS for PvE *or* PvP, while PvE gear is BiS for PvP *and* PvE. So it's even worse for PvPers.

Feel free to make the calculations of the time investment needed for both btw.

Wait, I don't follow, first you imply it's the same thing:

32 minutes ago, void_echo said:

And forcing hardcore PvP players (even normal PvPers) to do raid Naxx to be able to get the best gear for PvP is better because...?

Now you say that it's not the same thing, which it is def not. I don't see how it's worse for PVPers, End-game PVE is better yeah, but what do you expect? it's a mainly PVE focused game, with PVP as a side activity, ofc they won't give people who did PVP at the start of the expention the best gear possible. that would ruin the main aspect of the game: PVE.

As I said before, even a casual raider can get the BiS items end-game by raiding just a couple of hours in a week, which is a complete different thing than playing for 100+ hours a week for multiple weeks, something that most people don't have the time for due to work/school/family etc, making it not accessible for every player. PVE is accessible for every player (even those who don't have all the time in the world)and gives every player the same gear.

Not sure what a total time investment would be useful for. if you'd have read the previous post, it's not about the total time investment, but about the accessibility that the gear has, PVP requiring a person to go completely no-life for multiple weeks is not accessible, however, PVE requiring you to spend 4 hours +- of your week playing PVE is really accessible to any player. Sure, not every guild can beat all naxx content on release, but that's vanilla you're not getting a free handout

[void_echo 10]

If you don't want a free handout, why can't you just wait for Naxx for your gear?

[Taurior 2]

4 minutes ago, void_echo said:

If you don't want a free handout, why can't you just wait for Naxx for your gear?

You're yet again making no sense. If you're going to reply to a discussion, read the posts that were posted earlier before you place your reply. Or maybe you're just trolling, idk. I never said I wanted the gear to be updated before naxx, I am against updating the gear earlier, the reasons why can be found in my previous posts. 

Take some time to read up on the previous posts, please :)