Fresh Server Pvp-Set

[prsina 17]

37 minutes ago, Blib said:

Dude I'm telling you, shoulders + gloves is literally bis for locks and mages on the pvp server right now and 2x2 set bonus stacking is also very good untill you get your hands on bloodvine. Why are you shilling if you clearly haven't even played on the server? Shadow priests haven't even been brought up yet, it's even worse with them.

Implementing costum changes that forces people interested in PvE to push to at least R10 in order to be bis, just to cater to a handful of pvp nerds is ridiculous.

http://realmplayers.com/CharacterViewer.aspx?realm=NRB&player=Breeze

http://realmplayers.com/CharacterViewer.aspx?realm=NRB&player=Ayahuasca

I guess these r13 mages should be kicked from NOPE because their itemization is shit. Why aren't they optimizing their PvE gear with PvP pieces? There is literally 1 SP per raid serving as a buff bot for locks, why are you even bringing them up? Priests have no incentive to rank without the gear upgrade. As I've said, premades will be rogues vs wars and an enthusiast here and there if they do not recognize the rpoblem as nost did. I hope I am wrong but I've ralked with people and some have the same impression, including me. Updating the gear in BWL or ZG patch is more than fine, AQ makes it obsolete. 

 

Edited January 4, 2017 by prsina

[Bourbonpie 13]

5 minutes ago, Wetpine said:

Updated gear should be released with BWL because PVErs will still have viable sets for PVE and PVPers will still have a significant reason to rank.  And if PVP gear is better for raiding then its a non-issue because most PVPers won't have a rank 14 set until your guild is full T2 anyway.  And even if they obtained it before then all it would do is help you progress, while the only downside is maybe 1-2 people beating "you" on meters; which is a bad reason not to upgrade them.

Thank you.

[Blib 14]

1 hour ago, Bourbonpie said:

It's not though cause I've played on Nostalrius PvP and Mantle of the Blackwing Cabal + Ebony Flame Gloves is better than 2 piece blue for Warlocks, Cabal + Netherwind Gloves is about equal for Mages. Bloodvine is Legs/Chest/Boots so idk what you're talking about there. You act like even getting to r10 is hard...it's not, btw.

It's pretty equal in both cases, with the pvp gear you can juggle pieces depending on how lucky you are with bwl drops. If you think it's cool that the blue pvp gear is on par with multiple bwl pieces then we can agree to disagree.

If by hard you mean time consuming, then yes it's hard imo. If grinding R10 is nothing to you, then the notion that it should be on par with bwl gear is even more absurd in my opinion.

1 hour ago, prsina said:

http://realmplayers.com/CharacterViewer.aspx?realm=NRB&player=Breeze

http://realmplayers.com/CharacterViewer.aspx?realm=NRB&player=Ayahuasca

I guess these r13 mages should be kicked from NOPE because their itemization is shit. Why aren't they optimizing their PvE gear with PvP pieces? There is literally 1 SP per raid serving as a buff bot for locks, why are you even bringing them up? Priests have no incentive to rank without the gear upgrade. As I've said, premades will be rogues vs wars and an enthusiast here and there if they do not recognize the rpoblem as nost did. I hope I am wrong but I've ralked with people and some have the same impression, including me. Updating the gear in BWL or ZG patch is more than fine, AQ makes it obsolete. 

 

I see pvp pieces on both of them so idk what you're on about. I thought the SP was worth mentioning briefly, if it was the only spec affected I wouldn't mention it obviously.

Healers in general got no incentive to rank either way except to get good gear for pvp, their pvp set is shit for pve healing. I remember a bunch of R14s on nost didn't make it to the BWL or ZG launch so I don't know what this fear is based on. Even if it did turn out to be true that only wars and rogues want to rank, you'd be on a even playing field with the opposition since the other side would have low ranked healers etc aswell. Or are you honestly saying that no other classes would pvp at all? lol

Edited January 4, 2017 by Blib

[Swineflu 18]

3 hours ago, Bourbonpie said:

None of the blue pieces are used in BWL though, they're all replaced by that point for Casters who are the only ones that wear them up until that point due to the 2 piece bonus.. 

Get a clue m8.

[Bourbonpie 13]

13 hours ago, Swineflu said:

Get a clue m8.

?

Gloves & Shoulders stats -

Warlock: Mantle of the Blackwing Cabal + Ebony Flame Gloves = 29 Stamina, 28 Intellect, 77 spell power compared to the blue sets 31 Stamina, 17 Intellect, 56 spell power and 1% spell crit so the Blackwing pieces take it here. 

Mage: Mantle of the Blackwing Cabal + Netherwind Gloves = 32 Intellect, 28 Stamina, 54 spell power, 1% spell crit compared to the blue sets 26 Stamina, 21 Intellect, 56 spell power and 1% spell crit. 

For Warlocks it's a clear choice when you get these two pieces, for Mages it's much closer but I'd still take the 11 extra intellect over the 2 spell power imo.

 

Other than that, Rogues, Warriors, Druids, Paladins, Shamans and Hunters don't wear any blue pieces. The only other argument would be for Shadow Priest, so but even then the BiS Gloves & Shoulders are the same as Warlock. Not exactly sure about Shadow Priests BiS in that patch tbh but they'd still be using Mish'undare, Mantle of the Blackwing Cabal, i'm assuming Robe of Winter night (already 19 spell power higher than the PvP chest which alone makes the 2pc bonus nearly obsolete), Ebony Flame Gloves, Fel Infused Leggings or Flarecore Leggings and Snowblind Shoes or Maleki's Footwraps. Unless we're talking pure mp5 issues for the Spriest here I don't see an argument really being made against those items and even then you're going to gain ~10 mp5 or so using the 2pc blue set.

Edit - Upon further research the argument can be made to use the blue set piece for Mages, Shoulders & Boots.

BWL Set - 25 Intellect, 18 Stamina, 56 spell damage with Omnicast Boots, if we're including Snowblind Shoes it's 26 Intellect, 22 Stamina, 66 spell power and 5 mp5. The blue set has 21 Intellect, 29 Stamina, 53 spell power, and 1% spell crit & hit. So you'd take the Mage Shoulders & Boots 2pc thru BWL till 1.7 is released and the boots are replaced by Bloodvine and you used Mantle of the Blackwing Cabal from there. 

So basically out of all of this one caster uses 2pc blue set other than full BWL BiS.

Edited January 4, 2017 by Bourbonpie

[Swineflu 18]

nice guildmaster of hardcore guild, l m a o

[Bourbonpie 13]

1 minute ago, Swineflu said:

nice guildmaster of hardcore guild, l m a o

Thanks! I try :)

[Swineflu 18]

1 minute ago, Bourbonpie said:

Thanks! I try :)

You think 66 SP vs 53 SP, 1% hit, 1 % crit is debatable? You're a fucking joke

[Bourbonpie 13]

6 minutes ago, Swineflu said:

You think 66 SP vs 53 SP, 1% hit, 1 % crit is debatable? You're a fucking joke

I said it depends on your current spell hit, but thinking about it the partial damage from spell crits if it's resisted is probably alone worth taking the 13 spell power hit. Idk what your issue is though, can't have a civil conversation? Relax mayn

Edited January 4, 2017 by Bourbonpie

[Larsen 3]

Making the upgraded PvP epic set available early is good for 1% of the playerbase and bad for the rest.

Any argument about it being "good for the community" is a joke perpetrated by people who just want benefits for themselves and are inventing reasons why it should be that way. It's objectively bad for the server when there's too long of a period of time where the way to get the best possible gear is to ignore the game's content entirely and sit in mindless queue-hopping premades all day every day, which is truly horrendous for the PvP environment and makes for an awful BG experience for everybody who doesn't do the same.

There's only one seriously valid argument for upgrading the PvP sets early: 1.11 is a silly long time away and we don't even know if the server will last that long. Anything else is just "I want my PvP gear to be even better... let's claim it'll be great for the entire community!" which is hard to respect as anything but self-serving nonsense. At least be honest and just say what you mean: I want a bigger advantage because I want to win more.

The "problem" created by the Blizzlike sets (i.e. you need to eventually start raiding in order to continue being the best geared PvPer) is nothing compared to the problems created by making the upgraded gear available early. This creates a much longer period of time where the only way to seriously compete is to be single and unemployed and do the nolife grind yourself. It pushes the vast majority of the playerbase out of the competition because players in early vanilla gear don't stand a chance in PvP against those players and can't just go and get that gear themselves because they have jobs and spouses and other obligations.

One percent of the playerbase wants to be able to do a few months of intensive BG grinding in order to set themselves up as PvP gods for the next year without any continued effort. They're now lobbying to make that happen, but the arguments are thin. I actually suspect that the absurd entitlement and fabricated claims are hurting that side of the argument by making you seem like petulant, self-serving whiners. If I were a developer, I'd go "fuck that, I'm not bending over backwards for that kind of selfishness."

 

Edited January 4, 2017 by Larsen

[(TheReal) Krom 7]

> 1% get R14 and advantage in PVE, majority of PVPers aim for R10 set which is worst than full-deck PVE, in either PVE or PVP

> Raid-logging only, can be seen as dull as premade all day, which are both valid parts of the game

> Excessive premade destroy everyone's fun, but no upgrade = no real interest to PVP at all (unless rep rewards) and no PVP competition

Reality should be somewhere between our two biased opinions.

 

 

[prsina 17]

Dragonslayers jealous cuz we 3rd world unemployed and have time for r13, get good small sons. Anyway, I think we've said it all and we're just spinning in circle. 8 k views and 6 pages later, what is the decision devs, update us?

Edited January 4, 2017 by prsina

[Taurior 2]

 

19 minutes ago, (TheReal) Krom said:

> Raid-logging only, can be seen as dull as premade all day, which are both valid parts of the game

You seem to forget that in order to get those PVP items you want upgraded you have to spend multiple weeks of no-life PVP, which as Larsen stated, is not accessible to the majority of the community. With PVE you can clear BWL+MC+ony in under 4 hours, which is a lot more accessible to the comunity. It might not be your thing but it's the main activity of the game.

19 minutes ago, (TheReal) Krom said:

> Excessive premade destroy everyone's fun, but no upgrade = no real interest to PVP at all (unless rep rewards) and no PVP competition

There will still be a lot of players who are interested in PVP even without the update, sure, there will be people who don't PVP hardcore because they don't see the benefit to do so. but the interest in PVP won't die out, that's blowing shit out of proportion. I'm quite certain that there will be a lot of people who will get rank 11 for the free 100% mount. the PVP gear is not completely terrible for all classes, I know for a fact that the warrior legs even not upgraded will last you till you get titanic legs. then there is R14 weps for warriors/rogues. tl;dr: enough incentives to rank, even if it's just rank 11.

[(TheReal) Krom 7]

8 minutes ago, Taurior said:

 

You seem to forget that in order to get those PVP items you want upgraded you have to spend multiple weeks of no-life PVP, which as Larsen stated, is not accessible to the majority of the community. With PVE you can clear BWL+MC+ony in under 4 hours, which is a lot more accessible to the comunity. It might not be your thing but it's the main activity of the game.

Yes and so, this is my point.

Why denying the most dedicated players, who will be very few, to enjoy best gear ? Seems fair to me.

12 minutes ago, Taurior said:

 

There will still be a lot of players who are interested in PVP even without the update, sure, there will be people who don't PVP hardcore because they don't see the benefit to do so. 

Why denying PVP players to have their hardcore too ? Competition should be PVE only ?

 

But yes, we're running out of arguments, and only Dev's choice should matter, now.

Also, sorry if I sound maybe unpleasant but it's not my main language and I also legit have no friends

[Lipánek 0]

If u want ruin PvP ... rename server to Elysium PvE

[Taurior 2]

42 minutes ago, Wetpine said:

Actually... you just made me realize the best solution.  Why are these PVErs even complaining?  Go play on the PVE server if that's your main activity.  And release the new sets on the PVP server.  Problem solved end thread.  "but its not fresh".  Who cares, its not like they're doing it to show off right?

Playing on a PVE  server will not make any difference, the difference between PVP and PVE servers is that on a PVE server you can choose to activate PVP in the open world, while on a PVP server you're always PVP tagged in hostile/contested zones.Also, it's a small part of the PVP community who is complaining about their gear being "useless" and PVP not being "worth" it anymore. 

 

52 minutes ago, Wetpine said:

No there aren't enough incentives to rank if the gear is worse than T2.  And as a shadowpriest that i'll be playing, its even worse because then i'm forced to raid to be viable while also sacrificing my favorite looking set in the game.  But you lose nothing except maybe a couple BiS pieces, only slightly better, while T2 is still plenty good for you to kill any of the NPC's you want to with ease.  

That's a problem that comes with your choice in classes, the same can be said for the PVP weps for rogues/wars beating any weps gained in PVP pre-naxx, You don't hear anyone whine about that, do you? Another good incentive, on top of the ones already mentioned, is bragging rights / gear looks.

57 minutes ago, Wetpine said:

And your "main activity" claim is a fallacy because that's not my main activity as already stated and reinforced with simple logic.  So be happy with your T2 and stop trying to nullify competitive PVP because that's exactly what it will do; so much that It may not even be worth playing on the server unless you prefer fighting scripted NPC's.

It may not be YOUR main activity, I never claimed that it is, or that it's everyone's main activity, I said that the way I see it the main activity of wow has always been to clear the content. The whole storyline is based on that content, PVP is just a side activty, although it's grown to be a big side activity, it's always been a side activity.

I'm not trying to nullify competative PVP, I just prefer to keep the server as it is right now. without changing a whole collection of gear. You're trying to avoid playing the full game and want the devs to help you with that. Don't twist the story, you're the one being butthurt that blizz made PVE gear more viable late-game pre-naxx than PVP gear.

Another thing: Dungeons/world PVE have plenty of items that will be BiS for a long time, even in PVP(Teebu, HoJ, Blackhand's Breath,green BOE wands?). should we also change that? give PVPers a way to get equal items without having to run dungeons? no, we shouldn't. PVE is something you can't avoid, you will have to do it sooner or later. leveling is PVE too, do you want to level by PVPing too? BG leveling? world PVP leveling? If you want to only PVP, I suggest playing retail, there you can play PVP without being killed by PVE players, and without even having to step a foot in PVE, I believe you can even level to max level with PVP if you want to.

I think there's no denying that PVE was meant to be the main activity of the game, but please enlighten me how PVP was meant to be the main activity.

[Crixx 2]

there is no real objective view on that case, i myself want to rank on fresh server as a warrior but only to rank 10 , as the gear is pretty good when updated and further ranking eats too much time i cannot even bring. that beeing said, im ok with having the "bad" blue set for a quite long time (zg patch) but waiting till naxx release? thats just stupid really, the set is totally crap and if anything a pile of stamina. old T1 would be better for pvp, you just have to see that blizz ваууed up with the itemization after all, and the time nost did update the gear was a good time, since pve'ers then got a good choice from items out of bwl and zg.

[Taurior 2]

"Taurior.  I know how the servers work and it makes a difference because you can just play on the PVE server and it won't be an issue since you don't PVP anyway right?  Why don't you go play on the PVE server now instead of posting in this thread?  Serious question."

What's with people assuming I'm only playing PVE just because I am not a full supporter of something that only benefits the PVP community? If you actually cared to read previous posts you'd know that I will go for rank 12 and maybe higher.

21 hours ago, Taurior said:

I myself am also going to rank( at least 12, and if my schedule allows me to, maybe higher) so please also GTFO with the dragonslayer bullshit, you don't know me, nor do you know my playstyle.

"Nobody should be forced to give up their favorite class, while nullifying the only real incentive to rank (vanity and stats) just because you can't have absolute BiS while T2 would be barely close behind if not relatively equal.  But this is getting redundant so we'll see what happens."

Yes it shouldn't be the case that you have to give up your fav class/spec, but that's how it is. (ret paladins, prot paladins, enh shamans, ele shamans, arcane focused mage) there are plenty of specs that are not viable in certain environments. keep in mind that vanilla was the first release of wow, to finetune a completely new game that has such a variaty as wow has is incredibly hard, even 13 years later I can't think of any MMO that is completely balanced. To change the whole vanilla aspect of the game by trying to fix every imbalance is against the goal of ely/nost staff

"And yeah, I'd rather have a game that's 100% PVP but the original devs weren't smart enough to allow people to progress with that option. Even if you still get some experience."

It's not that they were not smart enough, it's that is not what wow is meant to be. it's meant to experience the world of warcraft as we knew from warcraft 1, 2 and 3. 

"So instead, you have bad game design that forces players to compromise and fight boring NPC's before they can start fighting each other.  Even if some players like that."

I've said it often already, but PVe has the same problem with warriors/rogues. In order for them to beat other warriors/rogues with R14 weps, they have to also farm those R14 weps, which not everyone is able to do due to RL(not even mentioning how boring it can be for some PVE players), and ppl who have the time to PVP that much do have the time to raid every week. Yes, the number of R14 weps is small but even having 1 warrior/rogue with those weps in your raid will ruin the competitive gameplay for that class.

Edited January 4, 2017 by Taurior
Multi-page quote doens't seem to work, or I'm just too bad to do it :)

[Bourbonpie 13]

16 minutes ago, Taurior said:

"Nobody should be forced to give up their favorite class, while nullifying the only real incentive to rank (vanity and stats) just because you can't have absolute BiS while T2 would be barely close behind if not relatively equal.  But this is getting redundant so we'll see what happens."

Yes it shouldn't be the case that you have to give up your fav class/spec, but that's how it is. (ret paladins, prot paladins, enh shamans, ele shamans, arcane focused mage) there are plenty of specs that are not viable in certain environments. keep in mind that vanilla was the first release of wow, to finetune a completely new game that has such a variaty as wow has is incredibly hard, even 13 years later I can't think of any MMO that is completely balanced. To change the whole vanilla aspect of the game by trying to fix every imbalance is against the goal of ely/nost staff

hat forces players to compromise and fight boring NPC's before they can start fighting each other.  Even if some players like that."

I've said it often already, but PVe has the same problem with warriors/rogues. In order for them to beat other warriors/rogues with R14 weps, they have to also farm those R14 weps, which not everyone is able to do due to RL(not even mentioning how boring it can be for some PVE players), and ppl who have the time to PVP that much do have the time to raid every week. Yes, the number of R14 weps is small but even having 1 warrior/rogue with those weps in your raid will ruin the competitive gameplay for that class.

You didn't even refute his first point that the gear is basically the same as T2, with maybe a couple pieces staying BiS after BWL. I'm not even gunna bother saying anything about the second quote because the R14 Weapons are being updated in 1.6 anyway. You only have the upgraded versions for one raid tier when your class mates can get equal Weapons come AQ40.

As someone said above this is getting redundant and i'm tired of reading and responding to this thread. The Devs will have made their decision before Saturday so we'll just have to wait and see for now.

[Taurior 2]

1 minute ago, Bourbonpie said:

You didn't even refute his first point that the gear is basically the same as T2, with maybe a couple pieces staying BiS after BWL.

I've already said that I don't know the gear for all classes, I do know that warriors get shoulders which are equal to AQ shoulders, and legs that are a bit worse than naxx legs(only for PVE though), which is far from equal to T2 for them. sure there are items that will equal T2. but there are also items that are far from it.

11 minutes ago, Bourbonpie said:

I'm not even gunna bother saying anything about the second quote because the R14 Weapons are being updated in 1.6 anyway.

I don't really know what you're trying to say here. I know they're updated at 1.6. what's your point?

16 minutes ago, Bourbonpie said:

 You only have the upgraded versions for one raid tier when your class mates can get equal Weapons come AQ40.

Like I said earlier when someone said weps are replaced in AQ: 
" I can be wrong about the weapons but to my knowledge AQ doens't have weps that beat the R14 weps, they're still a tad worse(I'd love to see which wep combo beats HWL in AQ). "

Show me.

[prsina 17]

10 minutes ago, Wetpine said:

- Killing NPC's shouldn't give you an advantage in PVP over someone who earned Rank14.

 

- Who cares if one PVPer beats on you meters if it helps you progress and get loot easier?  Assuming they'd do that.

 

 

 

1. +1, and  you can't despute this, any1 who thinks that a t2 equipped class should beat a rank 13 equivalent in pvp is just not worthy of having a conversation with

2. Another +1, besides most of the dps difference comes from the player, not the gear assuming they are mostly similar.

[Taurior 2]

33 minutes ago, Wetpine said:

Taurior:

- If you're going rank up then why are you opposed to having better gear?

Contrary to how many people think, I look at how it affects both sides in order to improve the server without creating new imbalances. Just because I benefit from the change doensn't mean that I should agree with a statement.
 

33 minutes ago, Wetpine said:

- Classes that are currently bad in PVP doesn't merit limiting more of them.

They're not limiting them, as it was like this on retail vanilla too. they're just not changing the problem that might result in a fix. it's hard to say what's the best solution.

33 minutes ago, Wetpine said:

- Just because the devs focused on PVE doesn't change the logic of why its bad game design.

It may be bad game design, but making significant changes to the game is against what nost/elysium staff strive for. making a server that closely represents the old vanilla game. If you want to tackle everything that is wrong with vanilla wow you're going to end up with a fun server.

33 minutes ago, Wetpine said:

- Killing NPC's shouldn't give you an advantage in PVP over someone who earned Rank14.

That's true in my opinion(no idea how blizz wanted it to be though), but this leads back to my answer on the previous point.

33 minutes ago, Wetpine said:

- Who cares if one PVPer beats on you meters if it helps you progress and get loot easier?  Assuming they'd do that.

From my experience it's not going to be the damage done that is the bottleneck in progression, not in my previous guilds at least. It all depends on what your goal in PVE is, ofc everyone wants to progress, but some people want to also be the top on the meters because the content is on farm(you'll find this more in hardcore guilds, and less in normal/casual guilds).

20 minutes ago, prsina said:

2. Another +1, besides most of the dps difference comes from the player, not the gear assuming they are mostly similar.

Almost thought we lost you to the trolls, welcome back

Yes, a major part of top dps comes from the player, but especially for warrior gear matters a lot. You find the competativeness mostly in hardcore PVE guilds, they do not allow just any player, they want the best players they can get, so you can safely assume that the skill levels will be close to eachother, the PVP weapons will make a huge difference, especially since they're updated on BWL. the difference will become less and less and in AQ it will not matter a whole lot as the stats are becoming more and more equal. but that still leaves a lot of time with a big difference in weapons.(I've done the comparison between BWL and HWL weps earlier in this thread)

Edited January 4, 2017 by Taurior

[Bourbonpie 13]

22 minutes ago, Taurior said:

Like I said earlier when someone said weps are replaced in AQ: 
" I can be wrong about the weapons but to my knowledge AQ doens't have weps that beat the R14 weps, they're still a tad worse(I'd love to see which wep combo beats HWL in AQ). "

Show me.

Ancient Qiraji Ripper - http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=21650

[Taurior 2]

9 minutes ago, Bourbonpie said:

Ancient Qiraji Ripper - http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=21650

High Warlord's Blade - http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=16345

24 more low-end dmg, 5 less high-end dmg

4 less stam

8 more AP

Like I said: they're still a tad worse, ergo, they're replaced in naxx

[prsina 17]

2 minutes ago, Taurior said:

High Warlord's Blade - http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=16345

24 more low-end dmg, 5 less high-end dmg

4 less stam

8 more AP

Like I said: they're still a tad worse, ergo, they're replaced in naxx

Edited January 4, 2017 by prsina
Already said