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wrathchild1971

roughly how much of a disadvantage will i be if i dont go human for fury endgame PVE.

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33 minutes ago, mytchi3 said:

What does it matter if those hits that hit are crits?

I wonder why anyone would take you serious right now.

/Kind regards Killerduki

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2 hours ago, killerduki said:

I wonder why anyone would take you serious right now.

/Kind regards Killerduki

Weapon skill has nothing to do with hits that are not glancing blows. So yes crit chance doesnt matter AT ALL. Youcan be at hard crit cap and hit cap with no normal hits on the table. Yet 40% of white swings will still be glancing and if that glancing deals 65% or 97% matters.

Edited by mytchi3

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6 minutes ago, mytchi3 said:

Weapon skill has nothing to do with hits that are not glancing blows.

It reduces the chance to Parry/Dodge/Miss and replace the same chances with normal Hits or Crits.

/Kind regards Killerduki

Edited by killerduki

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17 minutes ago, killerduki said:

It reduces the chance to Parry/Dodge/Miss and replace the same chances with normal Hits or Crits.

/Kind regards Killerduki

Again GLANCING BLOWS.... are y o u being stubborn on purpose now? 1 wep skill decreases parry dodge miss by 0.04% so its really irrelevant for dps only thing that matters is dmg coefficient on glancing blows when looking at weapon skill. And also if you get a parry you still havent mastered basics and this min maxing is not what you need to do to increase your dps

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Can I try and summ up it here?

The biggest difference between non-human and human is in the starting content (lets say, up to bwl). You don't have much crit/hit, thus your damage is so sensitive to the glancing damage reduction. The difference is huge, let us estimate it as "up to 10%".

Later on, as you gain crit/hit, and better weps, you are getting less rage starved, which affects your HS amount, making MH glances less an issue. Thus, the damage is much less dependant on the expertise. Lets estimate it as "up to 5%". 

In naxx, you will be almost everytime spamming HS/cleave, depending on whether you are threatcapped or not. Also, wearing edgemasters in naxx seems to be a complete nonsense, as they will be dragging your stats way back in comparison wirh the alternatives. Thus, the difference between the human and non-human is only 5 skill max. And thus the effect of OH glancing is minor, and the hit/crit effect of the expertise is even less. At least, the spreadsheet estimates it as "not more than 3%". 

 

Please, point out the mistakes.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Cheech said:

Can I try and summ up it here?

The biggest difference between non-human and human is in the starting content (lets say, up to bwl). You don't have much crit/hit, thus your damage is so sensitive to the glancing damage reduction. The difference is huge, let us estimate it as "up to 10%".

Later on, as you gain crit/hit, and better weps, you are getting less rage starved, which affects your HS amount, making MH glances less an issue. Thus, the damage is much less dependant on the expertise. Lets estimate it as "up to 5%". 

In naxx, you will be almost everytime spamming HS/cleave, depending on whether you are threatcapped or not. Also, wearing edgemasters in naxx seems to be a complete nonsense, as they will be dragging your stats way back in comparison wirh the alternatives. Thus, the difference between the human and non-human is only 5 skill max. And thus the effect of OH glancing is minor, and the hit/crit effect of the expertise is even less. At least, the spreadsheet estimates it as "not more than 3%". 

 

Please, point out the mistakes.

 

 

Nice summary without going into deep mathematic proofs. As a human you can afford to drop edgemasters when you get maladath for example and go for superior options while its still bis for other warriors. And those gloves are really expensive, but for a fury non human to be competitive with dps in bwl its a must have item.

But if OP is serious about joinin guild that clears content in one night full world buff and potions i dont see a reason to gimp your dps not going human.

We have elf tanks and human furys while horde has tauren tanks and orc furys for pve. Nobody said you cant top dps meters in your guild as any race.

For me personaly i would always think about i could have had that 0.2% more if i picked human, But that goes same for timing instant attack after extra attack proc to not reset you swing timer and min maxing with everything including movement and drinking free action potions to sit through stuns . If you dont have this mentality than best race is one you find appealing and pleasant to play.

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On 18.3.2017 at 10:31 PM, Haestingas said:

The non human would go edgemaster + maladath for glance cap

No. You don't.

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10 hours ago, Alrik said:

No. You don't.

Lol quality post, feel free to enlighten me oh great one to what you would have them do instead. I'm all ears over here.

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1 час назад, Haestingas сказал:

Lol quality post, feel free to enlighten me oh great one to what you would have them do instead. I'm all ears over here.

Actually, I guess edgemasters+axes is an option.

 

remember , you are going to get those axes faster, than swords BY LOT, if playing ally side...

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Here are the numbers on glancing blows and weapon skill: https://web.archive.org/web/20061112110447/http://evilempireguild.org/guides/glancing.php

It is worth noting that if you manage to convert all your hits to yellow hits (ie. constant heroic striking), then there are no glancing blows, making weaponskill rather negligible. With Edgemaster's you can also reach 7 weapon skill.

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26 minutes ago, Aethelwulf said:

Here are the numbers on glancing blows and weapon skill: https://web.archive.org/web/20061112110447/http://evilempireguild.org/guides/glancing.php

It is worth noting that if you manage to convert all your hits to yellow hits (ie. constant heroic striking), then there are no glancing blows, making weaponskill rather negligible. With Edgemaster's you can also reach 7 weapon skill.

Where do you get that much rage? Fucking cluless idiot not playing fury posting here

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I never opined on how doable it is to somehow heroic strike for every hit in a dualwield fury setup. If you want to try it though, then I guess you should try to grab the slowest one-handers you can find and max your damage per swing somehow.

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First of all there's this thing called the offhand which is always a white hit and always subject to glancing blows. Only time I've had close to unlimited rage was full aq gear with the overpowered Ironfoe on Kronos (10% proc rate) and even then you'd get some back luck misses and glances and not have the rage to HS.

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2 hours ago, Aethelwulf said:

Here are the numbers on glancing blows and weapon skill: https://web.archive.org/web/20061112110447/http://evilempireguild.org/guides/glancing.php

It is worth noting that if you manage to convert all your hits to yellow hits (ie. constant heroic striking), then there are no glancing blows, making weaponskill rather negligible. With Edgemaster's you can also reach 7 weapon skill.

the server uses a different formular you need 315 weaponskill for no reduction with glancing blows,

also you only deal 65% dmg on glancing with 300 skill 

https://github.com/elysium-project/server/blob/development/src/game/Objects/Unit.cpp#L1694

Edited by sarro

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13 hours ago, Aethelwulf said:

I never opined on how doable it is to somehow heroic strike for every hit in a dualwield fury setup. If you want to try it though, then I guess you should try to grab the slowest one-handers you can find and max your damage per swing somehow.

You did right here

 

14 hours ago, Aethelwulf said:

Here are the numbers on glancing blows and weapon skill: https://web.archive.org/web/20061112110447/http://evilempireguild.org/guides/glancing.php

It is worth noting that if you manage to convert all your hits to yellow hits (ie. constant heroic striking), then there are no glancing blows, making weaponskill rather negligible.

So stop spewing bullshit. Get me a screenshot of your dpsmate after vael fight where you can use only yellow for mh and then flamegor fight for comparison.

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You're reading into my posts too much. Stop being an idiot and learn to distinguish between what is in my text and what is in your head. I am under no burden to accommodate your fool notions. My statement was largely a comment on how with increasing yellow hits, glancing damage is less of a problem by highlighting the fact that yellow hits cannot be glancing blows. Coupled with edgemasters, this would allow you to reduce glancing blows to a very small amount.

13 hours ago, sarro said:

the server uses a different formular you need 315 weaponskill for no reduction with glancing blows,

also you only deal 65% dmg on glancing with 300 skill 

https://github.com/elysium-project/server/blob/development/src/game/Objects/Unit.cpp#L1694

Huh. That's not blizzlike though. Also, that is somewhat inefficient code.

Edited by Aethelwulf

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10 minutes ago, Aethelwulf said:

Huh. That's not blizzlike though. Also, that is somewhat inefficient code.

Feel free to provide official Sources for Wepskill when you're claiming 315 isnt blizzlike.

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54 minutes ago, Aethelwulf said:

You're reading into my posts too much. Stop being an idiot and learn to distinguish between what is in my text and what is in your head. I am under no burden to accommodate your fool notions. My statement was largely a comment on how with increasing yellow hits, glancing damage is less of a problem by highlighting the fact that yellow hits cannot be glancing blows. Coupled with edgemasters, this would allow you to reduce glancing blows to a very small amount.

Huh. That's not blizzlike though. Also, that is somewhat inefficient code.

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Talk:Weapon_skill

Alot to read there about Athans formula, anno 2006.

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1 hour ago, Aethelwulf said:

You're reading into my posts too much. Stop being an idiot and learn to distinguish between what is in my text and what is in your head. I am under no burden to accommodate your fool notions. My statement was largely a comment on how with increasing yellow hits, glancing damage is less of a problem by highlighting the fact that yellow hits cannot be glancing blows. Coupled with edgemasters, this would allow you to reduce glancing blows to a very small amount.

Huh. That's not blizzlike though. Also, that is somewhat inefficient code.

There are always glancing blows and ammount can never be reduced which just proves you are posting with no knowledge on this matter. 

We were always talking about small numbers here in range of 1-5% at most bis fury. Bis fury includes r14 swords and if you take your time to get thst human is superior because of racial.

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He is saying that with more rage availability due to gear, your MH (which he didn't clarify) doesn't get affected by glancing blows as often.

Your OH damage fuels a lot of your rage.

Though it isn't "every swing" that you are using cleave and HS and there is still benefit to push beyond 305.

So many people circle jerk around some dps spreadsheet which always undermined mobility from mechanics (ie resetting of swing timers or allowing those swing timers to be ready to swing once in range 0.0 sec MH 0.2 OH, and most important the value of increased white hit damage vs WW/BT damage - more rage)

Edited by Undertanker

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You should not only take Weaponskill difference (being 5 less due to racial) in consideration but also due to not being Human you will need to put on edgemasters to compete top tiers. While at the moment it is not that big of a deal cause we only have t1 gloves (being worldbuffed) and flameguards (not worldbuffed) which you miss on but having AQ almost in reach (at least that is what we hope) you will miss on C'thun gloves and that will be a bigger disadvantage.

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43 minutes ago, stint said:

having AQ almost in reach (at least that is what we hope) you will miss on C'thun gloves and that will be a bigger disadvantage.

You would still equip C'thun gloves over Edgemaster's, even as dwarf/elf/gnome/greenskin/etc.

Weapon skill is over rated. Doing 90% glancing dmg instead of 95% is not that big of a difference, especially when the more you are geared, the better your rage flow and therefore you will do way less whites with your main hand. Heroic Strike is to be used as much as possible without rage starving yourself and this is where your Off Hand rage gen matters a lot. Off Hand swings glancing damage getting buffed a tad bit is the actual end result of more weapon skill.

In practice, extra weapon skill past 305 or 310 as a fury is neat, that's undeniable. But keep in mind it will only make you do few % more damage on 40% of your white swings, which themselves only represent 40-50% of your damage output, and this is supposed to be lower and lower the more you're geared/get gut.

Now look at your gloves options and realize the overall damage boosts and stats (on every source of your damage output, hello execute and BT crits) you are missing by using edgemasters.

TLDR : Roll the race you want to play because you like it, not because of a super marginal glancing blow dmg increase. Tryhard more than others (if you care about endgame dps consequences of racials, I would assume you will consum to the core and do as best as you can). Equip the best weapons you can get regardless of their type and spam dem buttons.

Edited by Slicy

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Using greater rage potions on pull makes more difference than weapon skill. Tryhardng a bit more will always put you ahead being human helps early on

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If you strive to be the best it's human all the way, because you can be human + greater rage pot. Full stop human is better for fury, whether you be a shitter or a top dps being a human will help your pve dps more than any other ally race.

 

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On 24.3.2017 at 11:36 AM, Slicy said:

You would still equip C'thun gloves over Edgemaster's, even as dwarf/elf/gnome/greenskin/etc.

You're right. The spreadsheet also gives a dps increase with C'thun gloves over Edgemaster's for dwarfs/elfs/gnomes as well. But the dps increase is pretty small compared to the upgrade they are for humans so you'll prob get them after all human furys. 

 

On 24.3.2017 at 7:03 PM, Haestingas said:

If you strive to be the best it's human all the way, because you can be human + greater rage pot. Full stop human is better for fury, whether you be a shitter or a top dps being a human will help your pve dps more than any other ally race.

 

No one denied that Human is the best racial for max dps. But as Slicy and others already mentioned, the better you gear gets the smaller of a difference it makes. On a newer server like Elysium the benefit is larger than on Anathema ofc. But being dwarf/elf/gnome you can at least get your hands on the juicy pugio stats since you'll prob play crul + pugio in AQ I suppose.

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