Horde Mage Beerwizzard ninjas Stockade Pauldrons

[Oakenlix 79]

9 hours ago, Oxblood said:

Here is some simple logic for you. The item for the Tank has a value of X, the purchase price on the AH. For anyone in the group the item has a value of X-15%, where this is the amount of gold they would get after selling it on the AH and the AH taking its cut.

By your logic, the item has a greater value for the Tank than for anyone else and should go to him.

That's great, you're trying to be constructive, I appreciate it. 

Well, if the 15% auction cut is the problem, allow me to resolve it - it's actually 5%, not 15%, so it's quite negligible. But nice try though!

9 hours ago, Oxblood said:

Lets take another example that someone mentioned, BoE greens. What if a BoE green was an upgrade for my recent 60 who was still wearing ilvl 45 gear. By your rules everyone in the group should be rolling Need on the item when, by your logic only I should be rolling need, as I will get more out of the item then someone vendoring it, or if it had marginal stats maybe getting double the vendor from the AH.

If it's a good item, it will be worth more on AH, and so it will to you if you wear it. If it's a bad item, it will be worth less on AH, but so it would to you. So no, the quality of a BoE item doesn't change the fact everyone needs it equally. Note that I never said you should vendor them, unless the vendor price equals its real value which I doubt is ever the case.

9 hours ago, Oxblood said:

In this case we can replace the implied question of "Are you Whore?" with "Are you a greedy player, only after personal gain and fuck your reputation on the server?"

Please do try and answer the question. How am I greedy for saying everyone should roll "Need" for any BoE? Thank you.

[Fyzitian 2]

10 hours ago, Oxblood said:

I can confirm that on NA servers it was as you think it should be.

I guess on the Asia or EU servers they had greedier players, just like now on these private servers you have to roll need on all the Traveller's Backpacks, which was never a thing on any Vanilla server I played on.

I leveled and played on Spinebreaker US and it was exactly as you describe. If you needed on something you had to equip right away. Never had any issues with ninjas excluding one rogue that got everything from the majordomo chest.

The best practice is to make sure loot rules are posted before first pull.

[Beerwizzard 13]

Только что, Fyzitian сказал:

The best practice is to make sure loot rules are posted before first pull.

Agree.

[ShyThunder 0]

5 hours ago, Fyzitian said:

I leveled and played on Spinebreaker US and it was exactly as you describe. If you needed on something you had to equip right away. Never had any issues with ninjas excluding one rogue that got everything from the majordomo chest.

The best practice is to make sure loot rules are posted before first pull.

Can someone make a macro of what the default rules should be so that we can easily announce this before the first pull?

[Bluntski 13]

Look, I don't have an issue with stating loot rules before a run but in this case of the pauldrons I personally would rather see the tank get it than my own greed getting me gold. As andividual I would have no problem giving it to the tank because I am not greedy enough to put my gold gain over his need of the item. Not only do I personally  feel that this is the right thing to do but it fosters a sense of frinedship and trust.

[Xemni 0]

The definition of a Ninja is different between servers. Some servers rolling need on all BoE's is considered acceptable, while others, you're to roll need only if its a gear upgrade as Greed is reserved for monetary gain. 

Whenever I joined a group in the past for something like this (Especially UBRS mind you) it was on Masterloot all the way through, back on my retail realm. This way if something did drop, it was only handed to someone that could use it, or greed rolled out if no one needed it. 

Its your fault for joining a group or creating a group without proper loot rules established, and leaving it on standard loot rules. 

 

What goes around, comes around. 

Edited February 1, 2017 by Xemni

[Fyzitian 2]

16 hours ago, ShyThunder said:

Can someone make a macro of what the default rules should be so that we can easily announce this before the first pull?

I'm not sure but I believe something like this should work.

/party Loot rules! Need Before Greed. Any BOE that you can equip and is an upgrade for you can be needed on. You must equip as soon as you win. Anyone that can not equip and is not an upgrade must use greed.

 

14 hours ago, Jorn Skyseer said:

This is done on joining the group, unless you installed too many chatfiltering addons.

Don't trust the default loot rules. If you want to ensure rules are followed. Then if anyone breaks those rules they can be considered a ninja 100%.

 

1 hour ago, Xemni said:

Whenever I joined a group in the past for something like this (Especially UBRS mind you) it was on Masterloot all the way through, back on my retail realm. This way if something did drop, it was only handed to someone that could use it, or greed rolled out if no one needed it. 

That is always a great idea especially when running with people you don't always run with (pugs).

[Ariconius 3]

Luckily I have a good guild I am playing with so interaction with people like Beer is at a minimum. Now in terms of greeding on items so that others can need as an "upgrade", I am fine with that - but there are times when a shiny purple epic might not be all that much better than a well itemized blue.

Usually the agreed upon procedure for needing a BoE of considerable value in my groups is the person who gets the item not only equips it immediately, but also makes a contribution in gold or items to the members of the party. Granted it likely won't be close to the market value of the item, but then at least everyone gets something out of the drop.

And as this need/greed conversation has come up on other threads I will say again that I have been in groups where desirable twink items have dropped, and every single time the entire group has rolled greed. So you can justify needing on everything, and nobody can stop you, but eventually I hope you will be stuck with others of a similar mindset and the rest of the community does not have to interact as much with you.

[Ariconius 3]

Luckily I have a good guild I am playing with so interaction with people like Beer is at a minimum. Now in terms of greeding on items so that others can need as an "upgrade", I am fine with that - but there are times when a shiny purple epic might not be all that much better than a well itemized blue.

Usually the agreed upon procedure for needing a BoE of considerable value in my groups is the person who gets the item not only equips it immediately, but also makes a contribution in gold or items to the members of the party. Granted it likely won't be close to the market value of the item, but then at least everyone gets something out of the drop.

And as this need/greed conversation has come up on other threads I will say again that I have been in groups where desirable twink items have dropped, and every single time the entire group has rolled greed. So you can justify needing on everything, and nobody can stop you, but eventually I hope you will be stuck with others of a similar mindset and the rest of the community does not have to interact as much with you.

[Beerwizzard 13]

2 часа назад, Ariconius сказал:

and every single time the entire group has rolled greed

any difference here between all need ?

[Sesshomaru 1]

sorry for being so offtopic, but can u explain me how to see what roll everyone selected and how to see the rolls? (numbers)

im using pfui and i dont see any option to activate it :(

[Reltih 6]

After reading through the whole thread I just had to create an account to say that I'm amazed that so many people can't understand the simple concept of BoE = Gold = Same value for everyone. Since everyone (except for one guy who rolled greed AFTER Beerwizzard needed) rolled need here there is no ninjaing at all. Beerwizzard won it fair and square. Why would you pass over 350g or whatever they're worth to a complete stranger? Also funny to see all the people who can't dispute any of the actual logic- and evidence-based arguments and resort to emotional arguments and personal attacks.

 

And I'm just curious. Have you removed Camooflage and Memeinhalers from your guild, since they also agreed in your gchat that it was nothing wrong? 

[Roflcakes 7]

After observing so much interest on this topic, I thought I should add my 2 cents on the matter.

Primus inter pares, Mokes as a fellow tank I understand how much those shoulders are an upgrade, and I can understand your frustration on losing such an item. So just want to offer my sympathy in that regard.

Now on to the matter at hand, BoE's and world drops are quite a sensitive topic as everyone has their own understanding of what is correct protocol. To see my PoV in groups, I want to first state what would happen if a BoE epic dropped while questing or grinding solo. Regardless of the Epic and the value of it, you would be delighted at your new bounty and proceed to either equip it or decide to sell it on the AH, where you can make some capital in order to buy more suitable upgrades for yourself. 

The logic provided above also in my opinion extends into group and pug play, guild groups will utilise their own loot rules and give the item to the person most in need, which is totally understandable. We are talking about pugs here thou, these are just a bunch of randoms grouping together in order to clear content. Loot that drops of bosses even rares follow the convention of need before greed; because it is expected that you will possibly receive an upgrade that you came to the instance for.

BoE world epics are different though, you do not expect for it to drop, the chance is too low for you to consider it to drop from a single or even multiple runs. So when it does drop, note the chance of it to drop in an instance is equal to it dropping while out in the world questing. Its hard to justify people not being able to roll for such an item. Just because at the given time of the drop, you are grouped and someone in the group benefits immediately from equipping does not directly entitle them to ownership of the drop. Giving the item to a random pug who you may never play with, means that you lost out on potential upgrades yourself. This would not be the case if you were soloing and an item dropped. So why are people being penalised for grouping up? BoE's epics have almost equivalent value for everyone, because they are tradeable and sellable. 

If an item has a net value of 250g, the item presents 250g worth of value upgrades for every single person in the dungeon. Sometimes winning one BoE epic, means that a person will get 2 meaningful upgrades compared to a person getting 1 upgrade.  Just because you are grouped doesn't mean you should lose your chance at potential upgrades. If people bring up arguments regarding the commission on the AH, etc; please note I said it has almost equal value.

So from my PoV needing on a BoE epic in a group is acceptable, as you would have done the same if you made a group to do a quest on the overworld. If this is not your opinion, you must be the party maker and you must state the loot rules before the instance starts. 

 

[Oakenlix 79]

49 minutes ago, Reltih said:

After reading through the whole thread I just had to create an account to say that I'm amazed that so many people can't understand the simple concept of BoE = Gold = Same value for everyone.

Yep, I believe this thread is a real treasure of this forum and needs to be sticked at the main page. A magnificent display of human stupidity.

[Tucka 0]

Funny how Relith and @Oakenlix defend these kind of players, the real stupidity is to need to get the gold when a TANK needs em, thats stupidity. but since you comment on every thread in here i guess its just for the trolling.

[Oakenlix 79]

3 minutes ago, Tucka said:

Funny how Relith and @Oakenlix defend these kind of players, the real stupidity is to need to get the gold when a TANK needs em, thats stupidity. 

Because tanks are the most important people ever and everyone should pass anything to them, right?

[Tucka 0]

When a Plate item with +Defense drop i would surely pass, can that even be a question lol?

[Beerwizzard 13]

Только что, Tucka сказал:

Funny how Relith and @Oakenlix defend these kind of players, the real stupidity is to need to get the gold when a TANK needs em, thats stupidity. but since you comment on every thread in here i guess its just for the trolling.

That totally proves Oaken's statement.

2 часа назад, Oakenlix сказал:

Yep, I believe this thread is a real treasure of this forum and needs to be sticked at the main page. A magnificent display of human stupidity.

 

[Nahaz 5]

3 hours ago, Roflcakes said:

After observing so much interest on this topic, I thought I should add my 2 cents on the matter.

Primus inter pares, Mokes as a fellow tank I understand how much those shoulders are an upgrade, and I can understand your frustration on losing such an item. So just want to offer my sympathy in that regard.

Now on to the matter at hand, BoE's and world drops are quite a sensitive topic as everyone has their own understanding of what is correct protocol. To see my PoV in groups, I want to first state what would happen if a BoE epic dropped while questing or grinding solo. Regardless of the Epic and the value of it, you would be delighted at your new bounty and proceed to either equip it or decide to sell it on the AH, where you can make some capital in order to buy more suitable upgrades for yourself. 

The logic provided above also in my opinion extends into group and pug play, guild groups will utilise their own loot rules and give the item to the person most in need, which is totally understandable. We are talking about pugs here thou, these are just a bunch of randoms grouping together in order to clear content. Loot that drops of bosses even rares follow the convention of need before greed; because it is expected that you will possibly receive an upgrade that you came to the instance for.

BoE world epics are different though, you do not expect for it to drop, the chance is too low for you to consider it to drop from a single or even multiple runs. So when it does drop, note the chance of it to drop in an instance is equal to it dropping while out in the world questing. Its hard to justify people not being able to roll for such an item. Just because at the given time of the drop, you are grouped and someone in the group benefits immediately from equipping does not directly entitle them to ownership of the drop. Giving the item to a random pug who you may never play with, means that you lost out on potential upgrades yourself. This would not be the case if you were soloing and an item dropped. So why are people being penalised for grouping up? BoE's epics have almost equivalent value for everyone, because they are tradeable and sellable. 

If an item has a net value of 250g, the item presents 250g worth of value upgrades for every single person in the dungeon. Sometimes winning one BoE epic, means that a person will get 2 meaningful upgrades compared to a person getting 1 upgrade.  Just because you are grouped doesn't mean you should lose your chance at potential upgrades. If people bring up arguments regarding the commission on the AH, etc; please note I said it has almost equal value.

So from my PoV needing on a BoE epic in a group is acceptable, as you would have done the same if you made a group to do a quest on the overworld. If this is not your opinion, you must be the party maker and you must state the loot rules before the instance starts. 

 

This puts what i think into words perfectly. It would only apply to epics and it is always best to state this before you start a run: "if an epic BoE drops, everyone can roll need". As others have stated, these items are so valuable on the market that they basically represent gear upgrades for every player in the group, and passing it to someone who can equip it right away is missing out on a chance to upgrade your own character.

Nothing stops you from making your own group rules about this though.

[Oakenlix 79]

1 hour ago, Tucka said:

When a Plate item with +Defense drop i would surely pass, can that even be a question lol?

It's very nice that you like passing valuable items that are basically big amounts of gold to strangers, however nobody can be obliged to do that neither be shamed for not doing that.

But then again, if you have read the whole thread and still write something like that, you are most likely hopeless.

[Cephei 8]

First fallacy is to assume that everyone needs gold equally. Tanks need significantly more gold to gear properly than any other class save for maybe DPS warriors. This is the first reason why the shoulders are a bigger upgrade for a tank than just the monetary value for any other player. The relative gold gain vs the the relative value for tanks for the item is not the same, and absolutely speaking, the item is worth more as an item than as its value in gold, simply based on this class discrepancy.

Second, this is further aggrevated by the fact that classes can farm gold through normal means at different rates. Mages are one of the fastest farming class, warriors are arguably the slowest. Translate a supposed 300g sell value to amount of time spent farming the item: You will see the mage farmed for significantly less time for the same gold value than the warrior. Or in other words, 300g is worth a lot less to a mage than to a warrior, making the item more valuable for warriors than for anyone else.

Third, you're not selling the item in the AH at the "true" value, you're selling it at a "atleast" value. There will inevitably some x amount of gold lost due to you not predicing 100% accurately how much a player is willing to pay for the item. Suppose for a moment that tank A is willing to pay at most 380 gold for the item, he will buy every shoulder for this amount and lower. However, seller B doesn't know this, so he's resorted to guessing and the most economically viable option is to go with the market average which not only trails behind the true values, but is also an aggregated value. You'll therefore lose 380 - market value in gold by selling it on the AH. This again makes the item more valuable than the gold value. The true value is whatever the player is willing to pay for it, the actual sell value is a deviation off this value.

These three are facts, and are the direct proof for this completely shit argument that an upgrade is worth the same as its gold value for other players in the group. It's not. It's objectively and mathematically not. Stop perpetuating this myth.

 

Lastly, and this is the most important fact, a significant majority of players disagree with needing on BOEs consistently between every server unless you want to actually equip it. There is a greed button, use it. You can delude yourself into making up arguments that let you live with a clear conssciousness, but this is a group game, you're not playing this solo:

• You will get blacklisted when you do it, whether or not you think it's an acceptable behavior
• You will get gkicked when you do it, whether or not you think it's an acceptable behavior
• You will get your character reputation ruined, whether or not you think it's an acceptable behavior
• You will not get into decent premades, guilds or parties, whether or not you think it's an acceptable behavior

Your own opinion on this topic has literally zero value, the majority doesn't want you to do it, and you either obey this social contract, or you will live with the consequences.

That's really the only thing that matters and the only argument you really need.

[Oakenlix 79]

@Cephei

That's an interesting perspective.

5 hours ago, Cephei said:

First fallacy is to assume that everyone needs gold equally. Tanks need significantly more gold to gear properly than any other class save for maybe DPS warriors. This is the first reason why the shoulders are a bigger upgrade for a tank than just the monetary value for any other player. The relative gold gain vs the the relative value for tanks for the item is not the same, and absolutely speaking, the item is worth more as an item than as its value in gold, simply based on this class discrepancy.

Second, this is further aggrevated by the fact that classes can farm gold through normal means at different rates. Mages are one of the fastest farming class, warriors are arguably the slowest. Translate a supposed 300g sell value to amount of time spent farming the item: You will see the mage farmed for significantly less time for the same gold value than the warrior. Or in other words, 300g is worth a lot less to a mage than to a warrior, making the item more valuable for warriors than for anyone else.

That's a "poor people should earn more money" argument, which is not valid both IRL and in the game. It is completely irrelevant, but even if it was, you don't know someone's wealth based just on their class, some people have multiple characters to begin with, and not all people earn gold by farming.

5 hours ago, Cephei said:

Third, you're not selling the item in the AH at the "true" value, you're selling it at a "atleast" value. There will inevitably some x amount of gold lost due to you not predicing 100% accurately how much a player is willing to pay for the item. Suppose for a moment that tank A is willing to pay at most 380 gold for the item, he will buy every shoulder for this amount and lower. However, seller B doesn't know this, so he's resorted to guessing and the most economically viable option is to go with the market average which not only trails behind the true values, but is also an aggregated value. You'll therefore lose 380 - market value in gold by selling it on the AH. This again makes the item more valuable than the gold value. The true value is whatever the player is willing to pay for it, the actual sell value is a deviation off this value.

So you're saying prices on AH are not fixed and are fluctuating? Who could've thought that... 

But it goes both ways, sometimes things are sold for more than their average market value, sometimes for less. This doesn't change the fact that any player has the same opportunity to buy something at certain price as other player - to sell it.

So this:

5 hours ago, Cephei said:

There will inevitably some x amount of gold lost due to you not predicing 100% accurately how much a player is willing to pay for the item. 

Is simply not true. It's not inevitable and you have equal chance of you gaining gold instead of losing it. 

5 hours ago, Cephei said:

Suppose for a moment that tank A is willing to pay at most 380 gold for the item, he will buy every shoulder for this amount and lower. However, seller B doesn't know this, so he's resorted to guessing and the most economically viable option is to go with the market average which not only trails behind the true values, but is also an aggregated value.

You're assuming the tank A knows the exact market value of an item and will never spend more for it. Yet at the same time you assume that seller B doesn't know the market value. Well guess what, whoever knows more about prices is at an advantage. 

When both parties are equally well informed, the price in their deal can fluctuate both ways as I said above. The ONLY difference is the auction 5% cut, which I didn't mention before because it's negligible, but you don't even have to trade via AH at all, so it's not a problem in any case.

[Beerwizzard 13]

6 часов назад, Cephei сказал:

First fallacy is to assume that everyone needs gold equally. Tanks need significantly more gold to gear properly than any other class save for maybe DPS warriors. This is the first reason why the shoulders are a bigger upgrade for a tank than just the monetary value for any other player. The relative gold gain vs the the relative value for tanks for the item is not the same, and absolutely speaking, the item is worth more as an item than as its value in gold, simply based on this class discrepancy.

Still have a question: why in pug group someone else's financial statement should care me so mutch?

6 часов назад, Cephei сказал:

This is the first reason why the shoulders are a bigger upgrade for a tank

Thats like "I need this ring more just because i have a green one instead your blues". The amount of your upgrade shouldnt bother your pug group.

6 часов назад, Cephei сказал:

Second, this is further aggrevated by the fact that classes can farm gold through normal means at different rates. Mages are one of the fastest farming class, warriors are arguably the slowest. Translate a supposed 300g sell value to amount of time spent farming the item: You will see the mage farmed for significantly less time for the same gold value than the warrior. Or in other words, 300g is worth a lot less to a mage than to a warrior, making the item more valuable for warriors than for anyone else.

Warriors could make a good gph if they want.

I still dont feel that someone else's (in fucking pug group) gph should bother me. You chose that chass / spec by yourself and you have to deal with it.

6 часов назад, Cephei сказал:

Third, you're not selling the item in the AH at the "true" value, you're selling it at a "atleast" value. There will inevitably some x amount of gold lost due to you not predicing 100% accurately how much a player is willing to pay for the item. Suppose for a moment that tank A is willing to pay at most 380 gold for the item, he will buy every shoulder for this amount and lower. However, seller B doesn't know this, so he's resorted to guessing and the most economically viable option is to go with the market average which not only trails behind the true values, but is also an aggregated value. You'll therefore lose 380 - market value in gold by selling it on the AH. This again makes the item more valuable than the gold value. The true value is whatever the player is willing to pay for it, the actual sell value is a deviation off this value.

I sold this item soon after Mokes started spaming in world chat. The price was bigger than current ah price (but a bit liwer then the ah price at that time) and it was a true  market  price. Nothing stops you from negotiating it. While buying an expansive item you can always /w a seller (like i do) and ask for a discount (at least equal the 5% ah cut).

The fact is the price dont make mutch sence and it changes every time. The most important is that its not "one of a kind: item and could be easily obtined from other players for the "market price".  There is no "atleast true value".

6 часов назад, Cephei сказал:

• You will get blacklisted when you do it, whether or not you think it's an acceptable behavior
• You will get gkicked when you do it, whether or not you think it's an acceptable behavior
• You will get your character reputation ruined, whether or not you think it's an acceptable behavior
• You will not get into decent premades, guilds or parties, whether or not you think it's an acceptable behavior

• blacklisted by retards. If you read the whole thread and still didnt get the main point then i'll prefer not to group with you
• Congratuletions! Seems like getting me kicked from a casual guild is ur biggest achievement for that moment. Usuelly every day im getting some whispers asking me to join some guild so i dont think that i will feel lonely.
• it can be ruined among you and your friends but its very funny that you whink how powerfull you are :)
• I still have no problems with group invites. Everything is the same as it wa before :)

 I'm still pleased for such attention but i think that you should TRY HARDER to ruin my life xD

Edited February 2, 2017 by Beerwizzard

[Beerwizzard 13]

1 час назад, Oakenlix сказал:

But it goes both ways, sometimes things are sold for more than their average market value, sometimes for less.

Sometimes their market price is higer. It can't be overpriced (or underpriced) under conditions of market efficiency.

Edited February 2, 2017 by Beerwizzard

[Oakenlix 79]

2 hours ago, Beerwizzard said:

Sometimes their market price is higer. It can't be overpriced (or underpriced) under conditions of market efficiency.

I didn't quite get what you mean, but my point is that what Cephei about AH prices not being the real value is a nonsense, it contradicts itself. If you can buy or sell an item for average 100 gold, that's a pretty damn real value to me. 

In the example he mentioned one party was simply more informed about the prices than the other, hence the seemingly "imbalanced" prices.