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Dralek

"Mid tier DPS" just an urban myth?

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Hello, I was considering rolling a hunter alt. After reading many posts, I kept finding stuff such as "hunter doesn't scale as well in later content", or that they are referred to as "mid tier dps" (similar to druids being the lower tier healers).

However I was scrolling around in realmplayers, and checking fights from the top guilds to check how well hunters performed. I am amazed to find that, while in the charts hunters are rarely in the "top 10", I always find that the combination of the hunter's total damage with that of its pet, would give incredible high numbers in damage. For example, this is Coalition's first raid in recently released AQ in Anathema: 

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/RaidOverview.aspx?Raid=69600

Hunter's final numbers re 11th and 10th place. But if you would add the total damage from their pets to each, they would rank quite higher. I understan this are the top hunters, but unless I'm missing something (or the addon doesn't record damage properly), or perhaps because we are still with BWL gear, wouldn't this mean hunters are capable of great dps?

Just asking, I'm considering making a hunter alt, and wished to get all the info, without the bias of urban myths that plague vanilla.

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If you ask me, the area of hunters' excellence in regard to damage is in their burst. We can take out specific enemies, like Chromatic Drakonids on Nefarian or Battleguard Sartura's adds, most precisely. We are indeed capable of pulling great sustained numbers, but such occurrences are often aided by many self-buffs, fight mechanics, and occasionally good luck. We don't have any intrusive mechanics to deal with, like the melee have to run from the boss if it has an AoE, the mages might have to decurse... our Tranq Shot only demands we keep a GCD free and not be casting Aimed Shot at the time. That's about it. Otherwise we can easily keep on DPSing whatever target we desire.

I'm new to vanilla, myself, so I really don't know anything about how they perform in Naxxramas, but I've been keeping up okay with the rogues, mages, and warriors if I actually try to, so far.

We also excel at supporting raids both by buffing melee DPS or tanks and re-positioning adds for tanks. With Deterrence, I've tanked impromptu a couple of times if an add happens to get loose, or we have an asspull or something.

You seem to be more focused on raiding, but as a side note, we rock in PvP. We have some of the best zoning, most versatile CC, and awesome burst. Throw Shadowmeld into the mix and become a ranged rogue :D

As a point of interest, on some fights in Ahn'qiraj, the melee seem to have a hard time staying in melee on their target. On Skeram, he and the clones you're supposed to kill teleport around, which is easier for a hunter to keep track of than a melee. On Battleguard Sartura, the raid kinda plays hot potato with the adds and the boss. Even on certain trash, a melee DPS is affected far more by the knockback of the Vekniss Warrior than you would be as a hunter, although ideally the adds and raid should be positioned in such a way that it doesn't affect them.

Keeping your pet alive in a raid is easier said than done. It helps to speak with your healers about tossing a little HoT your pet's way or something, but ultimately it's up to you to ensure it stays out of AoEs and deals damage simultaneously. On Firemaw, for instance, you must pull your pet back out of harm's way just as you must retreat when the debuff gets too high. On Onyxia, keep it to her side, never under the tail or in front of her face, or it will be set ablaze or knocked with the tail's damage, even if it doesn't knock your pet back. On Ouro, it helps to keep your pet by your side as you flee the popcorn on the ground. And on some fights, especially if your healers aren't helping the hunter pets, it's improbable your pet will remain alive no matter what you do.

To be one of the best hunters, you also need to master the rotation for each new weapon you pick up, which changes between, say, Rhok'delar and Ashjre'thul. We don't just spam frostbolt and call it a day :p

Either way, hunters are a lot of fun and they're pretty easy to pick up. They're just difficult to master. I'm passionate about them, so maybe I'm biased, but I say give 'em a try! And if you need any pointers, hit me up, fam ^^

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Not a myth, hunters in vanilla are a solid 5th place behind warlocks, mages, rogues and warriors, respectively.

And the way I understand it is that raidstats already merges the pet's data with the hunter's data, even if the pet's damage appears in the meters.

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11 minutes ago, Cornholi said:

And the way I understand it is that raidstats already merges the pet's data with the hunter's data, even if the pet's damage appears in the meters.

You are correct.  OP is adding the hunter pet damage twice.

Also certain fights are not dps races.  This is not MC/BWL.  Mechanics have to be respected.

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4 minutes ago, Undertanker said:

Also certain fights are not dps races.  This is not MC/BWL.  Mechanics have to be respected.

Ye.

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2 hours ago, Undertanker said:

You are correct.  OP is adding the hunter pet damage twice.

Also certain fights are not dps races.  This is not MC/BWL.  Mechanics have to be respected.

This sort of answers my question (I was indeed missing something :P)

Thnx all. (:

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6 hours ago, Dralek said:

For example, this is Coalition's first raid in recently released AQ in Anathema: 

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/RaidOverview.aspx?Raid=69600

Hunter's final numbers re 11th and 10th place.

You really should not base your conclusions off that AQ40 run where mobs had insane resistances and armor values.

Should not rely on Raidstats logs either when it comes to pet dps addition or not to their owners since it is extremely unreliable and buggy depending on what 40 ppl syncing Swstats chose as option for pet dps merging or not.

With normal resistances and armor values, casters will outshine every physical dps achetypes (yes, even fury warriors, since they are to offtank on a lot of trash & bosses) in the last raid tiers and hunters are bottom of them. That being said you can shit on average/bad melees if you're good and competition with hunters can be quite fierce.

First raids of each raid tier have Hunters perform well, because they take the least damage, usually die last, have no threat issues and are masters at keeping their buffs when others don't because of a wipe and thanks to the low cooldown on Feign Death. If you look at first MC & BWL clears across several realms you will notice hunters rock in progression raids and when the instance is cleave AND/OR ranged friendly.

If you understand your class well and tryhard it in a fitting raiding environment (example : your healers have pet raid frames, make sure they are buffed and healed when needed) you will pull out satisfying numbers. Especially on trash which are the real deal in vanilla. Looking at boss dps only is quite a big mistake vanilla communities constantly make. Trash + Boss avg dps values across several weeks is where it's at. Nobody cares about your boss dps if you are afk, slacking on most of the trash packs or pet ass pulling in the instance. It's the same as only looking at healing meters to evaluate a healer, it's very dumb since it  doesn't take into account buffing, ressing, CCing, dispelling, totem twisting, fear warding, positioning, situation awareness, etc.

Your role also goes far beyond being a dps turret in raids. If you don't tranq properly it doesn't matter if you're pulling out good numbers : you are a dead weight. If you are able to kite one or several mobs in a raid when told to (or better, anticipate it) as well as pull at the ideal pace for your raid you're already worthy to bring into every raid tier.

As you already said, you're also having top level giggles in BGs and wPvP :)

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You can easily be topping the DPS charts if you know how to minmax your hunter. You can always go all in DPS, unlike other classes, because you have feign death and you are ranged, meaning most go in/go out boss mechanics dont apply to you. With max range you can also stay out of plenty nasty debuffs (Lucifron curse, Geddon mana burn etc.). 

I am personally always 2nd in raid dps (pet included), only behind our top fury warrior. Can even be no.1 on numerous boss fights.

Look for Arrowdei hunter guide or Timecop. Guys like these can teach you how to be a hunter and not a huntard.

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1 hour ago, Slicy said:

If you understand your class well and tryhard it in a fitting raiding environment (example : your healers have pet raid frames, make sure they are buffed and healed when needed) you will pull out satisfying numbers. Especially on trash which are the real deal in vanilla. Looking at boss dps only is quite a big mistake vanilla communities constantly make. Trash + Boss avg dps values across several weeks is where it's at. Nobody cares about your boss dps if you are afk, slacking on most of the trash packs or pet ass pulling in the instance. It's the same as only looking at healing meters to evaluate a healer, it's very dumb since it  doesn't take into account buffing, ressing, CCing, dispelling, totem twisting, fear warding, positioning, situation awareness, etc.

Everything Slicy said, but especially this ^^

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