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[Hurricane2 2]

The only way to get gold is by spending time to get it.  So how am I wrong?

[Myllz 8]

2 hours ago, Caber said:

Wether it's vanilla or not is irrelevant and an arbitrary distinction. It's not in the current patch, just like dualspec isn't.

I mean, if I suggested they should release ZG ahead of BWL, would you perceive this as a "custom funserver feature and not blizzlike" or would you think "oh, it's vanilla so it's fine and not custom"?

You're right.  We should also add in LFD, LFR, RAF, rep tabards, battle pets, flying mounts and level 60 versions of WoD raids.  I mean, Blizzard did it eventually, no reason not to here.

The fact you're using something as small as AB coming before it's supposed to as a means to support your argument just proves how ridiculous it is.  You have no other argument, so you use things like a battleground (one that fits the version of the game) being implemented early as means to support bad ideas.

[Fiers 0]

46 minutes ago, Lifealert said:

You want to kill the server just for your own personal needs.

You are basically arguing for a custom server because you cannot farm 100g a week or pvp in a pve spec for a week or two. You play a hunter I assume. Gold farming is VERY EASY for hunters.

What? *I* don't have a problem affording the gold. As I would have thought was made abundantly clear in my first post in this thread, I'm not simply arguing for what would benefit me personally. I PvPed for 80-100 hours a week for 3 months, and already finished ranking. Of course I can farm 100g a week. In what way does that matter? My personal situation is irrelevant regarding potential server-wide or Elysium Project-wide changes.

The issue is that high respec costs cause an issue for *casual* PvPers. I'm neither casual nor personally harmed by the respec costs. But they discourage many others from participating, which causes problems for others, both of which could be mitigated by modifying respec costs in some way.

46 minutes ago, Lifealert said:

Once custom content is introduced in the form of lower respec costs and dual spec players will leave and no new players will come because everyone on every internet forum will cry out that elysium servers are FUN servers.

If a single non-blizzlike change is enough to make this a "FUN server", we're already one. That didn't stop people from rolling here, it's not what made people leave, and it's not what's preventing people from rolling here. But people *are* quitting because of PvP problems, and you've done nothing to explain why you think that's not a problem that should be addressed. Saying "BLIZZLIKE" in no way counters what I and others are saying here, regarding the problems that this thread was created to address. If that was the answer to every problem, this thread wouldn't exist.

[quasexort 4]

Hypothetically let’s say Elysium gets shut down and two new servers open with the exact same scripts Elysium used, except one server has a 20g respec cap and the other has the blzzlike 50g respec cap.  Which do you think will be more popular? 

Hopefully this should answer the question as to whether the respec cost reduction will make people quit or deter players from rolling here.

[Fiers 0]

23 minutes ago, quasexort said:

Hypothetically let’s say Elysium gets shut down and two new servers open with the exact same scripts Elysium used, except one server has a 20g respec cap and the other has the blzzlike 50g respec cap.  Which do you think will be more popular? 

Hopefully this should answer the question as to whether the respec cost reduction will make people quit or deter players from rolling here.

Hypothetically let’s say Elysium gets shut down and two new servers open with the exact same scripts Elysium used, except one server has BGs and the PvP ranking system in place starting at launch, and the other waits 5.5 months for patch 1.4 to implement implement the PvP honor system, and waits another month to activate BGs (WSG and AV, of course - AB wouldn't be released for another 3 months). Which do you think would be more popular?

Hopefully this should answer the question as to why the "Blizzlike" argument is nonsense.

 

"Blizzlike" is a completely bogus term if it allows you to put any patches content anywhere in the timeline you want. If you can reconfigure the timeline and any part of it in any way you want while being Blizzlike, surely you can occasionally consider drawing inspiration from changes made after 1.12.2, to address significant ongoing issues within the Vanilla experience.

[quasexort 4]

4 minutes ago, Fiers said:

Hypothetically let’s say Elysium gets shut down and two new servers open with the exact same scripts Elysium used, except one server has BGs and the PvP ranking system in place starting at launch, and the other waits 5.5 months for patch 1.4 to implement implement the PvP honor system, and waits another month to activate BGs (WSG and AV, of course - AB wouldn't be released for another 3 months). Which do you think would be more popular?

Hopefully this should answer the question as to why your argument is nonsense.

 

"Blizzlike" is a completely bogus term if it allows you to put any patches content anywhere in the timeline you want, but not consider anything outside of the 1.0 to 2.0 timeline to resolve ongoing issues.

You realize I was agreeing with you.  Unless you believe people would actually prefer to play on a server with 50g respec cap vs 20g respec cap.

[Fiers 0]

2 minutes ago, quasexort said:

You realize I was agreeing with you.  Unless you believe people would actually prefer to play on a server with 50g respec cap vs 20g respec cap.

Honestly, I didn't. It sounds exactly like what someone on the purist side of things would say, when they suggest people would leave in droves or refuse to roll there in the first place if a single beneficial change was made.

[reagan 6]

The argument for blizzlike or not blizzlike is pointless. Its not 2006, people aren't playing on Pentium 1's on shit internet connections. There's databases that everyone uses to know exactly what items to get, where to farm gold/items. The player knowledge is far greater and the player behavior is not the same. To argue for blizzlike is in-itself a regressive argument because players will never behave in a "blizzlike" manner so the game will not be the same, it cant be.

The crux of this issue is that perfect blizzlike emulation yields a result that some of the times is a pretty terrible game. PvP is an example. Not all changes blizz made were bad. Arenas were amazing, using PvP rating to award gear was a VERY good solution to PvP gear. It rewarded skill, not just time sinking. 

How good would it be if the development team was able to add arenas in, and if you were able to earn R12-14 gear though an arena rating? I don't believe this is possible because i don't believe the arena's are in the client. But you get my point. Some of the changes improved game play (heroic 5 mans, duel specs - personally i think these were good but i see the argument against them, better holiday events) many of the changes didn't and i think the fear of changing away from "Blizzlike" is that the VAST majority of blizzards changes made the game worse, welfare epics *cry*. 

Flaming change or the sake of flaming change doesn't help the server be better, arguing passionately about a change that you honestly believe will make the game better or worse though - that's a good thing.

What are some ways we could bring people back to PvP? If someone's started raid logging are they gone, or can we get them back into the game and enjoying it? 

[QQsya 4]

I read it as if Fiers was simply agreeing and expanding on what quasexort said.  ``blizzlike`` purism is dumb when we're making changes inspired by Blizzard's changes and we've had almost 14 years of hindsight to see what worked well and what sucked.

[Cucksupreme 0]

The Chinese players are ruining the PVP scene. AFK and play 21 hours a day, sharing accounts and not able to communicate with the rest of the europeans and american player base. 

[Fiers 0]

@QQsya I thought @quasexort was disagreeing with me til their follow up comment, but the posts still work as they are. Instead it being a counterargument, it's an elaboration of the same point, and ends up the same as if I hadn't misinterpreted their point.

46 minutes ago, reagan said:

The crux of this issue is that perfect blizzlike emulation yields a result that some of the times is a pretty terrible game.

That is a good way of putting it.

*Perfect* emulation is the correct starting point, and good general guideline, but not the ideal finished product. For most things, sure. But not every single aspect of the game.

[Caber 4]

3 hours ago, Lifealert said:

You want to kill the server just for your own personal needs. Once custom content is introduced in the form of lower respec costs and dual spec players will leave and no new players will come because everyone on every internet forum will cry out that elysium servers are FUN servers. This is mostly because TBC/vanilla servers that have these things are indeed fun servers (retrowow/smolderforge for example). 

And you cannot look at future content and say that vanilla ought to have features from those future expansions because those features arose from issues with vanilla. Do you want player housing on vanilla servers because WoD has it and the devs experimented with the idea back in alpha WoW? Should we have LFR too? Don't fix vanilla problems with solutions from future expansions. Vanilla is its own standalone game and should be treated as such.

You are basically arguing for a custom server because you cannot farm 100g a week or pvp in a pve spec for a week or two. You play a hunter I assume. Gold farming is VERY EASY for hunters.

Custom content is already in the server and it hasn't killed it so far. Why you're making this assumption is beyond me and probably beyond all logic aswell.

 

Wether content is vanilla or not is irrelevant aswell because it's not in this current patch. Would you be fine with ZG being released before BWL? I asked this before and nobody answered. Maybe it's because this question got you by the balls?

 

Quote

because everyone on every internet forum will cry out that elysium servers are FUN servers.

idk if you're intentionally making this comical but it's pretty hysterical. People on hidden internet forums will be telling eachother not to play on Ely because there might be fun here.
Why don't people tell eachother not to play here because DM east has been customized and changed to be less profitable? Because they don't. It's too small a thing to deter people from playing here, and this one is even entirely "negative" in terms of how it affects players.

And again, because this is an actual question directed to you that I would like to see answered in order to understand your point (if it can be answered): Why does changing respec costs hypothetically cause such a huge purist backlash, but not customized DM farming or customized BG release order?

[Imbaslap 14]

the real question is.. what are you emulating or attempting to emulate.

 

Vanilla wow? or Convenient Vanilla wow.

[QQsya 4]

b-but if it's not blizzlike then those hackers on steroids over at /vg/ will shitpost the server to death !!!!

[Caber 4]

9 minutes ago, Imbaslap said:

the real question is.. what are you emulating or attempting to emulate.

 

Vanilla wow? or Convenient Vanilla wow.

Given that custom fixes to gold economy and custom content release order is already in place, the answer is the latter. Or atleast, it's not supposed to be a 1:1 copy of the original game.

This isnt' supposed to be mean "it's a slippery slope anyways", it's supposed to mean: We already have non-blizzlike changes for certain balance and fun reasons, and as such it's not a sufficient argument to say "it's not blizzlike" when arguing against it. Stop using it.

[Fiers 0]

17 minutes ago, Imbaslap said:

the real question is.. what are you emulating or attempting to emulate.

 

Vanilla wow? or Convenient Vanilla wow.

Vanilla wow, with minimal changes as necessary to deal with the changing gameplay and playerbase that comes with time and new servers. It's not an all or nothing situation. It's not Vanilla WoW or Convenient WoW. Or if it is, then every private server ever created has been Convenient WoW, because none have been true to a pure Vanilla experience.

You stick to the script, until there's a problem of sufficient magnitude to merit deviating. Given the number of players dissatisfied with the PvP situation on all servers, it would seem to be an area that merits having the conversation about what can and should be done.

The Elysium team made this thread to gather feedback on the issues. While most people are attempting to flesh out the problems and make suggestions, you are shouting your opinion that the fact that there is a problem is not a problem. This thread's very existence appears to be contrary to that perspective.

[Rose_ 0]

I would suggest one of the following:

• Reduce respec cost cap to something a bit more humane, maybe 10g, or,
• Allow a free respec with a cooldown, say 3 days, or something along those lines.

I strongly believe this will increase general pvp activity on the server, thus leading to pug players facing premades less commonly.

Other than that here are some other opinions based on previous replies in this thread:

• Do not limit premades in any way,
• Allow players to queue from anywhere in the world, this would be especially good for players at level 10-59, as there's low activity in their battlegrounds.

[Lifealert 19]

29 minutes ago, Imbaslap said:

the real question is.. what are you emulating or attempting to emulate.

 

Vanilla wow? or Convenient Vanilla wow.

This.

Stop complaining and farm your 100g per week or don't respec.

[Caber 4]

23 minutes ago, Lifealert said:

This.

However:

Quote

Given that custom fixes to gold economy and custom content release order is already in place, the answer is the latter. Or atleast, it's not supposed to be a 1:1 copy of the original game.

 

[Fiers 0]

27 minutes ago, Lifealert said:

farm your 100g per week or don't respec.

That's how it is now, and isn't working, as it contributes to the problem. Stating how things currently are, where there's a significant problem, isn't a counter to suggestions of how things should be.

[Cucksupreme 0]

if respecs are blizzlike, please allow hunters/locks to solo dire maul tribute for 100g/hour and please allow mages to solo dm:e for 80g/hour. There were some nonblizzlike changes made. Thanks!!

[sreaver 0]

The system is still quite relaxed compared to Diablo 2, and I'm sure that option was in the table too (no respec at all). If the desire is to follow what the original WoW designers most likely thought about the game, then high respec cost seems justified.

[sreaver 0]

17 minutes ago, Cucksupreme said:

if respecs are blizzlike, please allow hunters/locks to solo dire maul tribute for 100g/hour and please allow mages to solo dm:e for 80g/hour. There were some nonblizzlike changes made. Thanks!!

It's quite different thing to change some minor imbalance at micro level than to change a clear design decision from the original developers.

[Fiers 0]

1 minute ago, sreaver said:

It's quite different thing to change some minor imbalance at micro level than to change a clear design decision from the original developers.

A loss of 50g an hour from farming is more minor than a decrease in 50g a week in respecs?

All the same arguments apply. It's not Blizzlike, they chose to not nerf those areas, it was this way for years, it significantly changes the ability of those classes to farm, blah blah blah. And none of that matters - it was done because they thought the servers would be healthier overall as a result. That's what needs to be done with PvP.

[Airymil 0]

Elysium, you are standing at a great crossroads here where you need to decide if you should let vanilla be vanilla and accept that summer is upon us, or start doing the same mistakes that Blizzard started doing. Some things are quite possible, ie. adding duals spec access by making your own UI addon+servercode. No matter what you do, please continue to make the game segmented like it should be: Queueing up for BGs from anywhere is the world, makes you less prepared for it cause you'll be grinding or questing in the meantime. People loved vanilla because you had to stop whatever you were doing and get both mentally and physically prepared to start a BG. You had some downtime, but it just made it more joyful once you got in. Also please realize that vanilla was flawed by design from the start, but this was also part of it's charm. If there's anything you should do, it's fight those that enter a BG and sits watching a movie or something while tapping the Forward-key every 1 minute or so.