Anathema's only population fix

[mbd 2]

4 hours ago, Stodola said:

The players that want to abandon Anathema or force a merge with Elysium can be estimated by the number of people making posts about it, give a factor of 10 for silent agreement, nets you about 100-150 players. That is NOT the majority of Anathema. It's maybe 10%. The active population of Anathema is higher than the peak population, btw. 

Yea let's just pluck numbers out of thin air, that'll help. 

Using your logic we'll take the 5 or so people on this thread who are making posts and actually play on Anathema who are against it, we'll take your 100% accurate factor of 10 figure and what do you know, only 50 people are against it? Woa ... Oh and I'm sure you know but remember, that is NOT the majority of Anathemas population.

Anyway, enough of that NASA standard of maths and back to logic. As people have said I'd be happy with a vote, provided they find a way to make it so that it's actually Ana/Darrow players voting and so that votes can't be spammed. So must have a char above a certain level on Ana/Darrow to vote for example. If the results are clear cut and people don't want the merge then we'll happily stop our moaning and go back to spamming world chat for hours at a time for groups instead of posting on the forums. 

[Morathe 5]

4 hours ago, Stodola said:

The players that want to abandon Anathema or force a merge with Elysium can be estimated by the number of people making posts about it, give a factor of 10 for silent agreement, nets you about 100-150 players. That is NOT the majority of Anathema. It's maybe 10%. The active population of Anathema is higher than the peak population, btw. 

Not really but even if so then we can also determine how many people are against the merge purely by estimating how many people speak against it in those same topics... its gonna be you, toradh... give it a factor of 10 for silent agreement and it nets you about 20 players. Bitch please.. don't use arguments that can bite your own ass. You ruin the facade of intelligence you've been so busy building all over the place. 

[Stodola 26]

1 hour ago, Morathe said:

Not really but even if so then we can also determine how many people are against the merge purely by estimating how many people speak against it in those same topics... its gonna be you, toradh... give it a factor of 10 for silent agreement and it nets you about 20 players. Bitch please.. don't use arguments that can bite your own ass. You ruin the facade of intelligence you've been so busy building all over the place. 

Except that you can't apply the same logic in reverse. Players that are upset with the status quo will complain while those who are content will not involve themselves - thus they don't represent a part of the prominent available data (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Availability_heuristic). It's a fallacy to present the "noisy minority" as representative by assuming that because they present the bulk of complaints that they represent the bulk of players. It's equally a fallacy to assume that because other players are not speaking up that they agree with the complaints. Sure, some might, but I accounted for that using the standardised 1 in 10 participation heuristic.

You really should be careful when trying to pull that schtick.

[SchfiftyFive 5]

This request to merge Elysium and Anathema needs to be put to bed. And soon, thank you. 

[Stodola 26]

1 hour ago, mbd said:

must have a char above a certain level on Ana/Darrow to vote for example.

So Elysium players don't get a say in mergers to their own server? Yeah, that's fair.

Of course, if you set the bar at 60, you exclude the bulk of the leveling population and if you set it lower, at say 30, players can smash that in a couple of days with practice so it won't stop vote stacking.

A vote will also completely ignore the opinions of players who are not even aware there is problem and are content with the status quo unless Elysium Project spam messages telling people to vote which in turn will create the impression that a merger is on the cards - which is not - and again, skew the results.

If a vote is going to be done, it has to be done by the players in a way that genuinely involves the whole server and not just those with a problem, but also in a way that neither promises nor implies a merger.

[mbd 2]

50 minutes ago, Stodola said:

Except that you can't apply the same logic in reverse. Players that are upset with the status quo will complain while those who are content will not involve themselves - thus they don't represent a part of the prominent available data (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Availability_heuristic). It's a fallacy to present the "noisy minority" as representative by assuming that because they present the bulk of complaints that they represent the bulk of players. It's equally a fallacy to assume that because other players are not speaking up that they agree with the complaints. Sure, some might, but I accounted for that using the standardised 1 in 10 participation heuristic.

You really should be careful when trying to pull that schtick.

Those who are content will involve themselves, what you are saying is utter garbage in this scenario. The 'logic' you are putting forth is for a scenario where the opinion of the one complaining does not affect those who are content. In this case by people wanting a merge it directly affects those who are content, those who don't want it can and oh they will argue otherwise, if they are happy with the current population then by no means will they want this to go ahead and they will make their opinion heard. 

Slapping things you've clearly googled once and don't understand onto a forum doesn't make you smart. Just makes you look silly when the numbers don't add up. 

[Morathe 5]

43 minutes ago, Stodola said:

Except that you can't apply the same logic in reverse. Players that are upset with the status quo will complain while those who are content will not involve themselves - thus they don't represent a part of the prominent available data (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Availability_heuristic). It's a fallacy to present the "noisy minority" as representative by assuming that because they present the bulk of complaints that they represent the bulk of players. It's equally a fallacy to assume that because other players are not speaking up that they agree with the complaints. Sure, some might, but I accounted for that using the standardised 1 in 10 participation heuristic.

You really should be careful when trying to pull that schtick.

Then what are you doing here if the content players don't involve themselves? I thought you were saying all over the place that Anathema is FINE and you're happy with its status. By your logic forums would be flooded by whiners without any1 to oppose them. Yet here you are doing that and by that you invalidate your own argument. Unless you are actually not content and its just your day job to fight what you consider trolls on forums and attempt to overwhelm them by your erudition and ability to copy irrelevant wiki links... in that case suit yourself fella. I guess none of us is free of insecurities eh?

[Morathe 5]

40 minutes ago, Stodola said:

Of course, if you set the bar at 60, you exclude the bulk of the leveling population and if you set it lower, at say 30, players can smash that in a couple of days with practice so it won't stop vote stacking.

There is a reason why countries gives voting right to populace that reached certain voting age. 

[Mahtan 15]

a lvl 30 player is far more valueable than a raidlogging 60...

[Mahtan 15]

Lets be honest... Does a possible suggestion even exist, which would help Anathema/Darrowshire to recover population?

It looks like the current "vision" of the project is to keep all servers like they are and follow the timelines. Maybe that's the best solution?

I doubt it. I think they need a better plan for the future. They should communicate their vision for the future.  Is it a merge of both PvP servers after Naxx is out for a while? Or new servers after Naxx? Tbc?

Maybe a more detailed vision would revitalize the old servers without pissing off the current players that stayed on Anathema/Darrowshire.

 

 

[gullyfoyle 0]

IMHO: Anathema is withering. My experience is that it is increasingly hard to get a group, zones are empty, and the Auction House economy is significantly out of wack. I am not sure what the solution is, but am of the opinion that something should be tried.   

[Stodola 26]

9 hours ago, Morathe said:

Then what are you doing here if the content players don't involve themselves? I thought you were saying all over the place that Anathema is FINE and you're happy with its status. By your logic forums would be flooded by whiners without any1 to oppose them. Yet here you are doing that and by that you invalidate your own argument. Unless you are actually not content and its just your day job to fight what you consider trolls on forums and attempt to overwhelm them by your erudition and ability to copy irrelevant wiki links... in that case suit yourself fella. I guess none of us is free of insecurities eh?

I'm ex-staff and I care about the project. The majority of Anathema players don't even read the forums with any regularity, or the subreddit. Many are completely unaware that there is a concerted campaign to undermine their server and try to force a merge in the footsteps of Indi. The few that are aware and involving themselves in the discussion get shouted down at every opportunity by you and others. 

I saw exactly what happened with Zeth'kur from the inside, and I don't want to see it happen to Anathema because old Nost players from the NA timezone are having a rough time finding raids or battlegrounds after they were deserted by their peers. 

Your inability to understand that there is more at stake here than your own personal experience is why you will never understand opposition. You're loud, ignorant, and uninformed. 

[Stodola 26]

10 hours ago, mbd said:

Those who are content will involve themselves, what you are saying is utter garbage in this scenario. 

Those who are content are not even aware there is a debate raging about the future of the server. There are roughly 2000 - 2500 active players across all time zones, giving a peek population of around 1.2k. There are maybe ten - fifteen people complaining about the state of the server. Even if you assume that there are ten players holding their tongues for every one that is complaining (which is a generally accepted heuristic) the complainers are not even close to a significant part of the current population distribution of Anathema.

It's a not exactly startling fact that most of our players dont read the forums, visit the discord, or read the reddit unless they actually have an issue. If they also don't play during the NA time zone, and therefore don't have to deal with NA negative world chat bullshit, they are probably completely unaware of this conversation or any talk of a merge.

[Roxy 8]

6 minutes ago, Stodola said:

Those who are content are not even aware there is a debate raging about the future of the server. There are roughly 2000 - 2500 active players across all time zones, giving a peek population of around 1.2k. There are maybe ten - fifteen people complaining about the state of the server. Even if you assume that there are ten players holding their tongues for every one that is complaining (which is a generally accepted heuristic) the complainers are not even close to a significant part of the current population distribution of Anathema.

It's a not exactly startling fact that most of our players dont read the forums, visit the discord, or read the reddit unless they actually have an issue. If they also don't play during the NA time zone, and therefore don't have to deal with NA negative world chat bullshit, they are probably completely unaware of this conversation or any talk of a merge.

I dont think anyone is denying that there is a issue with population on both Anathema and Darrowshire.

But a merge with elysium wont solve those issues for a large portion of the server. Due to merging with elysium will set the servers back another year in terms of progress, which will drive a lot of the active population away from the game.

Merging anathema and darrowshire is also not a solution, due to darrow being a pve server. As well as it would not bring any new players to the server since new people chose elysium. It will only delay the problem, and in a few months we will be having the same discussion again.

The only real solution i see is a suprise announcement of a tbc server that we can copy our chars to once naxx is farmed. (I dont think that is likely to happen, but it would probably attract a lot of players who wants to play tbc with their old nost characters ect) 

[mbd 2]

20 minutes ago, Stodola said:

Those who are content are not even aware there is a debate raging about the future of the server. There are roughly 2000 - 2500 active players across all time zones, giving a peek population of around 1.2k. There are maybe ten - fifteen people complaining about the state of the server. Even if you assume that there are ten players holding their tongues for every one that is complaining (which is a generally accepted heuristic) the complainers are not even close to a significant part of the current population distribution of Anathema.

It's a not exactly startling fact that most of our players dont read the forums, visit the discord, or read the reddit unless they actually have an issue. If they also don't play during the NA time zone, and therefore don't have to deal with NA negative world chat bullshit, they are probably completely unaware of this conversation or any talk of a merge.

Again more figures your plucking out of thin air, on a server with 2500 active players only 150 want it? I will bet you all the money I have it's a lot more. You are talking about 1 thread which has been up for a few days, discounting all prior discussions there have been and other threads spread throughout all forums for the previous months, it's a lot more than 10-15 people on the forums alone.

I don't understand your obsession with these false figures. To get an accurate figure it either takes a lot of research and time to build up some actual stats before then simply multiplying it out by the server capacity. Or an accurate unbaised poll. You can't just go "err well theres like 10-15 ppl here in a random thread up for a few days, wor kid on wikerpedia said multiply by 10". Anyway, I feel like my breath is wasted on you, when you get on to making some actual points for/against the cause and not inventing your own fake numbers because they simply push your point despite being incorrect then I'll continue to respond. As for now I'll leave you to your sick mathermatik skills you found on wikipedia until you find a voice and opinion of your own.

[Mahtan 15]

1 hour ago, Stodola said:

You're loud, ignorant, and uninformed. 

hahaha, you are much more ignorant.... even arrogant, thanks to your reference as being "ex-staff".

You arguments are not bad, but I disagree with "people on the server don't care, it's just a small loud forum minority". Sorry, but population shrinked tremendously on Anathema/Darrowshire and that is not just fiction.

[Stodola 26]

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discounting all prior discussions there have been and other threads spread throughout all forums for the previous months, it's a lot more than 10-15 people on the forums alone.

It's literally the same people creating those threads and participating in them. That's just another flaw in the arguments being made "Look at all the threads on the forums about this issue, clearly it is important to all players" - said after continually creating threads after they are locked. Take Morathe for example; temporarily banned for creating multiple threads in violation of ToS and then went on to create more. If you count the actual number of players that are participating in this discussion, its negligible measured against the active server population, and it's still not a major part of the population even if you factor in ten or twenty more per participant. 

Then there are the demands that the project answer them - staff have repeatedly said "there will be no merger" so why act like you haven't been told this? Then there are demands to "tell us there will be TBC" - which completely ignores the fact that staff probably have no solid plans at this stage and it would be a long way off if it ever happens?

And I said if a poll is done, it needs to be done by the players, not the staff, and done in a way that involves the entire server and neither implies nor promises transfers or mergers. Add to that "neither promises nor implies TBC". 

Until such a poll is done, rough estimates are all we have. We know the rough active population and distribution of players on Anathema right now, and we know the rough number of players demanding a merger or complaining about population. Using the statistical 1 in 10 rule, we can estimate the actual number of dissatisfied players. It's a heuristic, a rule of thumb, it's not intended to be exact but to provide some measure of insight and proportion. Anyone who has studied problem solving and analysis (a core module for most software engineering, for example) would be familiar with the legitimacy of these models.

[Imbaslap 14]

people still play on anathema?

thats a good one.

who would want to play on a beta test realm for the golden child Elysium? :P

[Stodola 26]

7 minutes ago, Mahtan said:

I disagree with "people on the server don't care, it's just a small loud forum minority".

You're free to disagree. I mean, it literally is a small loud minority on the forum/reddit who are literally just complaining they can't PVP and Raid anymore which is literally a lesser concern for the bulk of the current population who would be affected by any actions taken for the server. But you are free to disagree.

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Sorry, but population shrinked tremendously on Anathema/Darrowshire and that is not just fiction.

No one is saying the population hasn't dropped. That would be ludicrous. However, it's also kind of moot, any decisions need to be made with consideration to the population as it stands. Forcing a merge for the sake of a couple of hundred bored OG Nost players who are already geared on multiple alts would be an absolute bad idea. Discouraging new players from rolling on Anathema because a couple of hundred bored OG Nost players are bored, is absolutely a bad idea. 

[indi 10]

1 hour ago, Stodola said:

 

I can't believe there are people who still think I had that kind of influence to cause the death of Zeth'Kur. This has been proven wrong numerous times, there were much bigger factors at play, and ironically the staff contributed to the rapid demise of Zeth in the spring with Shenna's famous "trust us or fuck off" quote.There was no "grand conspiracy", and if you were even involved with the Zeth migration you'd know it wasn't just me who was openly vocal about "saving" Zeth from imminent death.

People don't want to feel like they wasted their time on a realm that has no realistic future when the rest of the community is having a grand old time on another realm. This is another fundamental issue with Elysium in the fact that there was simply too many servers. Anathema is clearly obsolete, and the community as a result are either quitting or rerolling to the main server, Elysium. The staff also laid down the hammer when they announced there would be no measures to stem the losses Anathema is currently dealing with in regards to a transfer. If I was maining on Anathema and heard that news I would have quit that realm and rerolled within minutes of reading it. There is no point in playing on a server that will die.

Trying to shift blame on individual players tired of unresponsiveness from the staff for the the population crashes that occured on Zeth, Darrowshire, and now Anathema just isn't realistic when Shenna's single reddit post did more more damage than any world chat shitpost I made.

I've been pretty quiet since Zeth was merged with Elysium since my guild and I are comfortable and happy not being on a "ded serber" anymore, but some people linked me this thread and we had a good laugh at your posts and I felt like a reply was warranted.

Population decay is inevitable, especially when you're as far into content as Anathema is. Ignoring that and attempting to rationalize it as a "grand conspiracy" of whiny players is disgusting.

[quasexort 4]

16 minutes ago, Stodola said:

No one is saying the population hasn't dropped. That would be ludicrous. However, it's also kind of moot, any decisions need to be made with consideration to the population as it stands. Forcing a merge for the sake of a couple of hundred bored OG Nost players who are already geared on multiple alts would be an absolute bad idea. Discouraging new players from rolling on Anathema because a couple of hundred bored OG Nost players are bored, is absolutely a bad idea. 

So, you think only like 15-20 players are unhappy with the population?  I’m pretty sure you can log on Anathema and message random people and ask them if they think the staff should try to do something to help the population and I’m sure a majority would say yes.  You could even ask them how they would feel if they merged the servers and see what they say.

[indi 10]

Just now, quasexort said:

So, you think only like 15-20 players are unhappy with the population?  I’m pretty sure you can log on Anathema and message random people and ask them if they think the staff should try to do something to help the population and I’m sure a majority would say yes.  You could even ask them how they would feel if they merged the servers and see what they say.

Reading the rest of this guy's posts makes me think he is simply a retard. Glad he isn't on staff anymore, that kind of thinking is why the realms got to this situation in the first place.

[Stodola 26]

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I can't believe there are people who still think I had that kind of influence to cause the death of Zeth'Kur. This has been proven wrong numerous times, there were much bigger factors at play, and ironically the staff contributed to the rapid demise of Zeth in the spring with Shenna's famous "trust us or fuck off" quote.There was no "grand conspiracy", and if you were even involved with the Zeth migration you'd know it wasn't just me who was openly vocal about "saving" Zeth from imminent death.

Ah Indi, you know exactly how much influence you had. Your team of malcontents made life a living hell on the server - as a GM I regularly saw complaints about your constant negativity in world chat. You polluted the forums with your charts and demands for action. And just like now, you and the players that aligned with you were a vocal minority discouraging anyone from playing on Zeth'kur.  Sure it wasn't just you, personally, but you were right there in the front waving the standard, and you certainly were one of the most vocal. You and yours hijacked every single thread you could, to promote your agenda. And yeah, in the end, enough players got absolute sick of trying to play with you around. While there may have been other problems, even right up until the end we received regular pleas not to close Zeth'kur from players that were enjoying playing there. 

If you create a toxic environment, why would you be surprised that players dont want to play there? Players ticket GMs for everything, and what sucked more than anything was having to reply with "well we can't just ban him/them" because we could see first hand the negative impact your campaign had on the server population. 

Are you really trying to pretend innocence? You screwed over a thousand or more players to get what you wanted because you couldn't be men enough to simply re-roll on Elysium (but mah geaaaars and looots and materialsssss, I worked so hard for dem!). That, more than anything, disgusting me. 

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Population decay is inevitable, especially when you're as far into content as Anathema is. Ignoring that and attempting to rationalize it as a "grand conspiracy" of whiny players is disgusting.

Yes, population decay is inevitable. What I call "the natural life cycle of content in World of Warcraft". It's something that happened in retail, and it's something that will happen with each server, and when the bulk of your population is raid logging or taking a break, or leaving for other expansions or games, that's going to make it worse. The key to balancing population decay is to promote and encourage new players to join the realms, that's what keeps populations healthy and vibrant. Not forcing mergers between servers and telling every last interested person to roll elsewhere.

The players that are complaining - just like you with Zeth - are not concerned about the health of the server, they are concerned about their immediate boredom and are absolutely willing to screw over every other player on the server for that sake.

[Stodola 26]

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So, you think only like 15-20 players are unhappy with the population? 

No, I think about 150-200ish players are unhappy with the population. Primarily NA, and primarily ex-Nost, though obviously there will be some bleed-over into other demographics. If you look at just NA timezone, that might seem significant (though still a minority) given peaks push 800-1k, but if you look at active population as a whole, which is roughly 2500, it's a absolute minority of the population. 

 

[indi 10]

4 minutes ago, Stodola said:

 

Yes, me using hard data and showing clear negative population trends the predating ANY world chat shitposting by MONTHS was clearly "pollution". Once again, glad to know you aren't on staff because morons like you are the reason why the servers ever got to that state.