hit rating

[Undertanker 88]

 

So we didn't speed run.  Which we informed on our recruitment post we wouldn't do.  Were one of the more laid back raid atmospheres offered US time.

 

And before realmplayers wiped, we <Thundercats> were top 20 as our fastest clears were late January, mid Feb. Other guilds did faster after us, again wasn't our goal.

 

So that 62 minute ZG that isn't there, currently would put us at 6th on serve comparing to what is there.

82 min BWL would put us at 18th.

our 53 minute MC would put us at 13th.

 

^ Like I said these are nil because the data wipe and there isn't a lot of competition showing.   We have fun, I stayed drunk (Shout-out to OG Thundercats), and cleared things at a steady pace.   Not everybody wanted a speed run, and you should know that takes all peoples effort, so it didn't happen.

 

Is there a different hit cap for instant special attacks like revenge and shield slam as opposed to on attack ones like heroic strike?

 

No, 8.6% is cap on your slam, revenge, sunder, and heroic strike.

 

Tanks commonly go for 8% hit on this patch, getting that last 0.6% is negligible for the gear availability for tanks.  Once AQ is out and people are running T2.5 shoulders/Legs as well and pure tank items have higher base +DEF, you'll see some tanks finally take the last 1% hit and run 9%.

 

 

Edit: removed 6% vs 8%

Edited December 9, 2016 by Undertanker

[Cornholi 0]

Why 6 for yellows and 9 for normals? Mind sourcing that one undertanker?

Edited December 8, 2016 by Cornholi

[Undertanker 88]

Why 6 for yellows and 9 for normals? Mind sourcing that one undertanker?

 

.......

 

Because you are new:

 

http://vanilla-wow.wikia.com/wiki/Hit

 

confirms your statement earlier as well about reduce base chance to miss with 305 skill.

Edited December 8, 2016 by Undertanker

[Cornholi 0]

That source doesn't say anything about special attacks being 6% hit against bosses.

[Zuat 0]

The weapon skill formula is:

Miss %: (mob defense - player weapon skill - 10) *0.4+7

 

That runs all the way up to 304.  At 305, the formula becomes:

 

Miss %: (mob defense - player weapon skill) *0.1+5

 

So your miss chance against lvl 63 (boss) is as follows:

 

9.0% @ 300

8.6% @ 301

8.2% @ 302

7.8% @ 303

7.4% @ 304

6.0% @ 305

5.9% @ 306

5.8% @ 307

5.7% @ 308

5.6% @ 309

5.5% @ 310

 

I pulled the numbers back when Nost was still around, don't remember where I got them from.  Would've either been from Nost or from an old EJ page.  I have a spreadsheet with all the numbers for it.  Dodge/Block/Parry formula doesn't change, it's (mob defense - player weapon skill) *0.04+5, so 5.6% for each of those 3 @ 300 weapon skill, 5.4% @ 305 and 5.32% @ 307.  I'll look to see if I can find the source material.

 

Edit: Oh, also, each point of weapon skill reduces the damage reduction from glancing blows (40% of hits vs. boss mobs) by 3%, from 30% at 300 weapon skill to a 0% reduction at 310 (however, a glancing blow still cannot crit because attacks are single roll).

 

Edit 2: Before anyone takes those numbers as gospel, let me find the source; the spreadsheet I have was just for me to compare gear for myself, so I don't know what was and wasn't tweaked around my stats on there.

 

 

Those numbers were originally pulled from the WoW Wiki archives which were re-posted on the Nost forums.

 

 

Assuming rage capped, 6 hit% is what is best.     If not, 8 hit%.

 

Reason I stated you forgot to announce for white hits is because not only the TPS from the hit itself, but the rage gained from landing the hit converts into more TPS from using abilities that generate threat.

 

While previously on Nost and a few other projects, HS spamming due to being rage capped on ALL fights (except Onxyia and some MC bosses) was possible and being able to HS spam, hit wasn't very important for medium performing DPS.

 

That being said, a few of us in the community have verified where incoming rage generation from damage taken was in error on the server.   Long story short, at 60 you should get 1 rage from every 90 damage taken.   The formula was there on Nost and these other servers, HOWEVER; the conversion was being performed BEFORE damage reductions from armor where considered.

 

https://forum.elysium-project.org/index.php?showtopic=22647

 

How does this effect a tank?

 

Using a 63% physical damage reduction from armor tank.  4k damage done to 0 armored target  as our constant:

 

The tank will receive 1,480 damage taken.   /90 = 16.4 rage gained.   Enough for 1 Sunder armor (improved or not), but not enough for a shield slam.

 

On Nost you got the full 4,000 damage factored into the equation.  /90 = 44.4 rage gained.  Enough for 1 shield slam, 1 Sunder (1 point improved) and a revenge.

 

 

That is a whopping 170.73% increase of rage generation from incoming physical damage that we shouldn't have been getting.   We should be seeing this in the patch-notes prior to server relaunch.

Weapon skill does not work like that on Nostalrius. 305 Weapon special attack hitcap is still ~8%. Test it yourself with recap tracking for a raid if you don't believe me. It will instead give you 0,2% hit which isn't noticeable. Weapon skill would be more useful for tanking if they fixed rage. I remember seing that thread aswell on Nostalrius that's why I rolled human, sadly it was debunked later when I tested it myself. Dwarf is probably the best tanking race.

 

Rage generation should get fixed, make parry/dodge give fixed rage (5-10 or w/e it was) and make rage gain from damage taken after mitigation. Tanking wouldn't be spamming heroic strike anymore. I think people would be surprised how fast you ragestarve when you parry/dodge 2 hits in a row.

Edited December 8, 2016 by Zuat

[Undertanker 88]

They (admin/devs) do need to revisit weapon-skill if that is true, which I am sure what you are saying is, as I had rogues testing it and said they didn't see any gains.

 

The dodge parry thing, you shouldn't generate rage if YOU dodge or parry an attack.  Though parry does increase your rage generation rate, and more benifitial to a slower weapon.  (assuming rage starvations): a 2.9 delay Deathbringer will benefit from parry much more than a 1.3 Dagger of choice.

 

After a successful parry, the defender's "swing timer" is reduced by 40% of your weapon speed, unless this would result in a reduction to less than 20% of your swing time remaining. This results in an average of .24 extra swings per parry; thus parry favors slower, higher damage weapons.  Note that with a slow weapon and fast incoming attacks, it is possible to gain multiple speed reductions.  Meaning if you just auto attacked and you parry two attacks at the same time (fighting multiple mobs) you get 80% swing timer reduction.  Parrying 3 attacks at the same time would do nothing in terms of swing timer since you can not benefit beyond the 20% remaining.  This is the extra rage you will get.    The reduction of swing timer holds true for mobs as well, and bosses, however some bosses this increase was purposefully disabled due to their mechanics - Patchwerk being a prime example.

 

Now if a mob parries your auto-attack, you will gain rage based off of your average weapon damage (tool tip menu after AP calculations) divided by 30 (level 60 rage gain formula).  If it was a special attack that consumes rage, the rage is not lost, but is lost if it was a miss or dodge.

 

@yellow 5.6%, I can't find old data from that, maybe Storefan or Walgrave or another can post on this portion.

Edited December 8, 2016 by Undertanker

[Zuat 0]

They (admin/devs) do need to revisit weapon-skill if that is true, which I am sure what you are saying is, as I had rogues testing it and said they didn't see any gains.

 

The dodge parry thing, you shouldn't generate rage if YOU dodge or parry an attack.  Though parry does increase your rage generation rate, and more benifitial to a slower weapon.  (assuming rage starvations): a 2.9 delay Deathbringer will benefit from parry much more than a 1.3 Dagger of choice.

 

After a successful parry, the defender's "swing timer" is reduced by 40% of your weapon speed, unless this would result in a reduction to less than 20% of your swing time remaining. This results in an average of .24 extra swings per parry; thus parry favors slower, higher damage weapons.  Note that with a slow weapon and fast incoming attacks, it is possible to gain multiple speed reductions.  Meaning if you just auto attacked and you parry two attacks at the same time (fighting multiple mobs) you get 80% swing timer reduction.  Parrying 3 attacks at the same time would do nothing in terms of swing timer since you can not benefit beyond the 20% remaining.  This is the extra rage you will get.    The reduction of swing timer holds true for mobs as well, and bosses, however some bosses this increase was purposefully disabled due to their mechanics - Patchwerk being a prime example.

 

Now if a mob parries your auto-attack, you will gain rage based off of your average weapon damage (tool tip menu after AP calculations) divided by 30 (level 60 rage gain formula).  If it was a special attack that consumes rage, the rage is not lost, but is lost if it was a miss or dodge.

 

@yellow 5.6%, I can't find old data from that, maybe Storefan or Walgrave or another can post on this portion.

Ah ok, thought it was something like 5 rage for dodging. Maybe it only was block that could generate any extra rage after all. Yeah parry haste works but not anything you can do against that as there is no expertise in vanilla. I think using a slow weapon to maximize parry haste wouldn't benefit you, for example a deathbringer would have problem dumping rage fast enough in certain situations and as soon as that happens you are losing much more than what you will gain. I think the optimal speedrange is 2-2.3 seconds for a weapon with correct working rage generation. You have a weapon fast enough at dumping rage but also reaping most of the slower 1hander benefits.

Edited December 8, 2016 by Zuat

[Undertanker 88]

You won't be HS spamming on any fight except Val if rage is adjusted to post armor mitigation. When rage starved, Deathbringer is strong, not only for the parry haste, but also due to how enchant like crusader PPM work in Vanilla, it will give you the most uptime on the enchant = more STR for white hit rage gains.

Note to new community when doing your 4 month Onxyia/MC farm, if your tank isn't spamming HS, PRIORITIZE Deathbringer to tanks, won't replace for a LONG time.

[Haestingas 30]

You can't find info on 5.6% being the yellow hitcap because IT'S NOT THE HITCAP. The yellow hitcap according to Storfan who actually knows warriors is 8.6%, the yellow hitcap according to both the stickied rogue guides on nost is 8.6%, and the yellow hitcap according to the stickied hunter guide is 8.6%.

 

Stop posting bad information, especially when it's on THE NUMBER ONE THREAT STAT FOR WARRIORS. Sucks that new warriors come on here and see 600 posts from a warrior and see huge walls of text and assumes that means you are a trusted source and take it as the gospel. You have contributed a lot of theorycrafting, some of it very useful and maybe im being overly harsh, but honestly a lot of people use you as a source of knowledge so when you are wrong it hurts a lot of players and guilds.

 

The thing is due to rage generation being off the charts bugged, a lot of dps didn't run into threat issues because the tank was always able to spam HS and abused Finkles/Alcors with that to put out very good threat even if they geared to full mitigation. If/when the rage generation gets fixed, threat is going to plummet while the dps threat stays the same and tanks will need to completely rethink how they gear and clean up their rotations to put out more threat or they will have a lot of pissed off threat gated dps that are 1 crit away from pulling threat and potentially wiping the raid.

 

Generally speaking you still want to stack some mitigation so you don't get wrecked by the bosses especially when you are first beginning to gear up. Once you start obtaining a lot of good tank gear that's when you start mixing in more hit gear. The easiest hit gear to use that wont hurt your tanking much is Wristguards of Trueflight, Gauntlets of might are amazing, Satyrs bow, and Band of Accuria. Later on you will want the Zulian Tiger Cloak from ZG once that is available.

Edited December 8, 2016 by Haestingas

[Undertanker 88]

I got the 5.6% from previous post from Armilus, Walgrave and a few other established tanks before me, and always assumed yellow and white matched before that.   So until they can provide proof of why they insisted that, I will revert back to my initial thinking of 8.6% as well.  - I am going to edit the other post to remove the incorrect information.

 

This is what forums are for, so through discussion of multiple minds we as a whole can obtain the best information.    You can stop headhunting me when I get one line of text wrong out of a lot of information that is useful to the community.

 

To add to your easy to get hit gear, Don Julio's band from AV rep is a competition free ring, though I'd replace it with the hit ring from ZG as well as it includes some avoidance making it an overall better ring for a tank rather than just damage that Don Julio's provides.

[Zuat 0]

You won't be HS spamming on any fight except Val if rage is adjusted to post armor mitigation. When rage starved, Deathbringer is strong, not only for the parry haste, but also due to how enchant like crusader PPM work in Vanilla, it will give you the most uptime on the enchant = more STR for white hit rage gains.

Note to new community when doing your 4 month Onxyia/MC farm, if your tank isn't spamming HS, PRIORITIZE Deathbringer to tanks, won't replace for a LONG time.

Crusader is PPM (Read: PROCS per MINUTE). Weapon speed does not affect Crusader uptime.

[Aslan 0]

Crusader is PPM (Read: PROCS per MINUTE). Weapon speed does not affect Crusader uptime.

PPM in vanilla isnt the same as PPM when it was actually implemented, what U. is talking about is that the %procrate is adjusted to your weapon speed. Lets say a procrate for an enchantment is X ppm, a 1 sec swingtimer dagger would have a certain % chance to proc it per swing, whereas a sword with a 2 sec swingtimer would have double the chance of procing it per swing. PPM does not describe a guaranteed amount of procs per minute.The difference is important if you take instant attacks into account.

 

If a tank uses an instant attack which procs crusader, the chance per swing still depends on your weapon speed, an instant attack with deathbringer will be more likely to proc crusader than an instant attack with finkles.

 

The description "Crusader has an X ppm" basically means, if you solely auto attack, you will get an average of X procs per minute, if you use instant attacks you end up with a higher absolute number of procs. As stated above, instant attacks have the same chance for a proc per swing as white attacks (higher procrate per swing, the slower the weapon).

 

Disclaimer: That doesnt mean I agree with U. when it comes to Deathbringer as a tanking weapon, even though its dps is great, I cant believe you will have so little rage income that you can barely use HS at all. But obviously if you are completely rage starved you wouldnt use HS, but sunder and benefit from the white hit to generate rage. If you reach that extreme point... yeah, all youd care for in a tanking weapon would be its dps (benefit from procs incalculated). Assuming Shield slam > Revenge > Sunder > HS, if you did HS > Sunder you would have even less rage due to the consumed white hit.

Edited December 9, 2016 by Aslan

[Undertanker 88]

Crusader is PPM (Read: PROCS per MINUTE). Weapon speed does not affect Crusader uptime.

Give this a read.

https://forum.elysium-project.org/index.php?showtopic=23058&page=1

[Shayss 43]

Very interesting discussion.

 

I didn't know about the slow weapon procs rates thing.

[Nocturn 4]

With proper rage gen, hit is the most important stat, the slower the weapon the better. The info on ppm has been given. Also go research parry haste which is a huge factor. Fast weapons are a Nost/Fenix broken server mechanic.

[Zuat 0]

Give this a read.

https://forum.elysium-project.org/index.php?showtopic=23058&page=1

Fair enough. But it's still a moot point to tank with slow weapon for higher uptime, you have no instant attacks as protection warrior that proc crusader. Would pretty much be sitting and hoping for parry to occur where you MIGHT get a decent attack timer cut which could give you a small uptime increase best case.

 

I'd go for the highest DPS weapon, that affects your tps way more than some RNG chance for POSSIBLE higher uptime on crusader. Crusader doesn't even give alot of DPS to begin with, ~7 DPS if you have 100% uptime... In other words this increase of uptime from parry haste on slower weapon can't possibly yield more than a few more DPS in best case. Any weapon that has more DPS than deathbringer would definetly be better.

 

TL:DR: Apart from TF crul will be the best tanking wep until AQ hits, in AQ the war hammer is the better choice stat wise and they are pretty much the same DPS wise.

Edited December 10, 2016 by Zuat

[SpottedCow 2]

Fair enough. But it's still a moot point to tank with slow weapon for higher uptime, you have no instant attacks as protection warrior that proc crusader. Would pretty much be sitting and hoping for parry to occur where you MIGHT get a decent attack timer cut which could give you a small uptime increase best case.

 

So Shield Slam and Revenge cannot proc Crusader?

[Undertanker 88]

you have no instant attacks as protection warrior that proc crusader. 

 

Crusader doesn't even give alot of DPS to begin with, ~7 DPS if you have 100% uptime

 

Sunder, revenge, mocking blow, shield slam.

 

For warrior ever 3.5 AP is 1 damage for your weapon.  100 str = 200 ap / 3.5 = 57 more damage on each swing before armor reductions on your heroic strike and white hits. 5 more damage per shield slam.

 

I already did the math for 1.9 speed (3.1% proc rate) has an average 55% uptime and crusader gives: 

 

15.24 DPS world buffed against a boss and 13.1 DPS raid buffed.     

 

 

Deathbringer being 2.9 speed (4.8% proc rate) has an average 72% uptime and crusader gives:

 

19.94 DPS world buffed against a boss and 17.14 DPS raid buffed.

 

These DPS values are with defensive stance penalty.

[ateni 0]

Hit rating is TBC. Vanilla is Hit %

When your guild is entering raid, 3 hit is good. should cover 500 DPS from your raid.

When they are doing good dps, 6 hit is good and should cover 700 DSP from your raid

When they are doing great dps, 8 hit will bring you to 0.6% chance to miss and is good for high end raid damage. 9 hit pre AQ gear you sacrifice other stats a bit too much.

 

 

Edit to move 5.6% caps until proven otherwise.

Good Post, just dont forget Weapon Skill also gives 0,04 Hit Chance. ;-)

[Shayss 43]

• • Armor now properly reduces the rage generated from taking damage.
  • Parrying or dodging an attack no longer generates rage.
  • Players now generate rage whenever their auto attacks are parried or dodged.
• Procs and damage shields no longer trigger on parried or dodged attacks.

 

DISCUSS THE PATCH NOTES WARRIORS!

 

Slow weapons it is amirite? Time to get out the Deathbringers. Is Quelserrar good now? What about all the hit you gona need. Optimal gear setups with t2 gogogogo

[Microscope 0]

fury buff

prot nerf

 

vael will be fun

[Whiskra 0]

fury buff

prot nerf

 

vael will be fun

I think vael of all fights will be the only fight not really affected by the rage changes.

[Microscope 0]

I think vael of all fights will be the only fight not really affected by the rage changes.

im retarded....

[Undertanker 88]

Crusader on a slow weapon, put 15 agility on your Quel sword. Swap as needed depending on if your target is main kill target or if you are tanking an add.

[Walgrave 10]

About Hit. It all depends on your top DPSers. If they push you on threat, you wear more hit + use more DPS consums. If you're at 8% hit and they are still pushing you on threat, get more crit with impale spec. There's no golden gear set perfect for all situations. Some guilds have spikey healers and need tanks with Lifegiving Gem on, so itemization changes around that. Some guilds have good healers and you need less defensive mitigation gear. Don't believe anyone when they say "This is the best item set for tank/threat/etc.". Use your own judgement for your own guild's requirement. I have an Optimal Tanking Sheet that is customized just for me, I don't advertise it as "optimal" for everyone, but for me. Take what others say with a grain of salt and play as you need.

 

Regarding enchants, I personally put anything 2.00 speed or below with +15 agi.