Need Critique on my DKP System I Created.

[Faith 5]

Those two things are not exclusive, most well functioning guilds have both a good loot system, and good guild members that think about more than their personal e-peen

Very true and I would say that if you have good guild members who put the guild first and not themselves then a loot system can definitely work.

 

 

You wore me down.. 

 

                  ~ Faith AKA Faithdriven ~

Edited December 12, 2016 by Faith

[Roxy 8]

Very true and I would say that if you have good guild members who put the guild first and not themselves then a loot system can definitely work.

 

 

You wore me down.. 

 

                  ~ Faith AKA Faithdriven ~

I've been in many guilds trough the years, and experienced a lot of dkp systems

 

There are definatly a lot of horrible systems out there, but the biggest factor is whether you got members that actually care about more than just the loot that drop. With good members, you can make any system work well,

 

But the way to finding those good members is a lot easier when you have a good system in place

 

Edit:

 

I also never really disagreed with anything you said, except that all systems are bad.

I share the very same values when it come to building a guild, and i am very lucky to be in such a guild on Nost pve. (We got 35 of our 45 members returning cause everyone loved playing together)

 

Edited December 12, 2016 by Roxy

[Faith 5]

I've been in many guilds trough the years, and experienced a lot of dkp systems

 

There are definatly a lot of horrible systems out there, but the biggest factor is whether you got members that actually care about more than just the loot that drop. With good members, you can make any system work well,

 

But the way to finding those good members is a lot easier when you have a good system in place

 

Edit:

 

I also never really disagreed with anything you said, except that all systems are bad.

I share the very same values when it come to building a guild, and i am very lucky to be in such a guild on Nost pve. (We got 35 of our 45 members returning cause everyone loved playing together)

Which guild are you in? I was planning on joining Logic (Nost PvE).

I've been the guild leader in 4 or more (The Dark Ages, Warrior Poets, Band of the Hand, The Dark Brotherhood, Order of Prophets, Faiths Followers {I required that all guild members send me 20 dollars a week and recite the Faith prayer before raids. "Faith is Grand Faith is Great Faith we definitely Like to Hate"} hahaha KIDDING!!!)  WoW guilds.

Edited December 12, 2016 by Pottu
Combined two posts

[Roxy 8]

haha,

 

I'm in Lothars Reign (A)

[Tickles 0]

I read your post before you actually edited in the TLDR

 

 

This line is what confused me and probably everyone else. cause here it looks like your points will go on top of your /roll 

Understood. Its just a simple way to communicate that you are spending your points, and communicate how many you have. 

Which guild are you in? I was planning on joining Logic (Nost PvE).

I've been the guild leader in 4 or more (The Dark Ages, Warrior Poets, Band of the Hand, The Dark Brotherhood, Order of Prophets, Faiths Followers {I required that all guild members send me 20 dollars a week and recite the Faith prayer before raids. "Faith is Grand Faith is Great Faith we definitely Like to Hate"} hahaha KIDDING!!!)  WoW guilds.

I knew it. 

[Undertanker 88]

@Tickles, when asking for feedback on a system.  Try to be nicer to those who invested time to give you legitimate feedback.

 

 

The biggest flaws in your system

- MC is > BWL and will be > AQ40.    If I am on a limited schedule and can only raid 1 time this week, I am better off just running MC to get more points and no reason to step foot into BWL if I'm not top of the list for that BiS item to drop.

 

- You show no limitations/restrictions to ensure items that are good for classes are going to those classes.  A lot of people are really bad at itemization and will want things better for other classes, which will set your guild back if it is permitted.

 

- 95% of all of your loot will be up to RNGesus since everybody is forced to only use their "points" on a BiS item.   You'll see a lot of loot going out to the people that are there not very often, just happen to have RNGesus helping their /100 rolls since nobody will want to completely reset their dkp for minor upgrades.  Your core people feeling the can not take these minor upgrades hurts your guild-gearing-rate greatly.

 

- There is no reason to put in effort beyond getting a raid invite.  The person that AFKs on all the trash, does 25% of the dps other members of the same class do with same gear, and isn't using consumables, stands in fire is given equal considerations on all items.

 

 

All loot systems can work if managed correctly, however as a guild, you have to ensure people are performing and carrying their own weight.

 

If you want to use DKP, cool.   But unless a "tiered DKP" system is put into place, you will consistently get sub-par raid performance with about 10 people carrying the load.  What do I mean by Tiered DKP?

 

You can have what ever DKP values you want, (fix your MC vs BWL DKP so BWL means more btw) and keep 3 ranks for raiders in your guild. For ease we'll call them R1, R2, R3.

 

R1 = This person doesn't use consumables, isn't showing effort to replace their leveling greens with BiS blues, under-performs on damage meters compared to their gear, and shows up less than 50% of the time.

 

R2 = This person uses the budget consumables, got their pre-raid items (or actively does 5-mans hoping they drop), performs around their expected levels of healing/damage output vs gear, and shows up 50% - 74% of the time.

 

R3 = This person uses the majority of consumables available to them, all slots pre-raid or better, consistently performs better than those with equal or better gear or tops meters on appropriate fights vs same class, shows up 75% - 100% of the time.

 

(officers and class leaders are considered R3, if they don't meet R3 criteria, they shouldn't be in leadership positions).

 

People bid on loot with their DKP.  R3 people get priority over a R2 or R1.   However to protect from R3s just bidding minimal bid, a person 1 rank below can beat you if they double your bid.  A Rank 1 can never beat a Rank 3.  A rank 1 can double bid and win against a Rank 2, and a Rank 2 can do the same to a Rank 3.

 

Example:

 

Mageblade drops, you got 5 people interested in it.    1 person that is R1, 2 people that are R2,  2 people that are R3.

 

Rank 3 - A person bid:  100

Rank 3 - B person bid:   50.

Rank 2 - C person bid:  110

Rank 2 - D person bid:  220

Rank 1 - E person bid:  350

 

R2-D will win the item.  Reason:

 

Going by rules above, a rank 1 can not out bid a rank 3, the rank 1 isn't in consideration for this good item.   Its the Rank 2s vs the Rank 3s.   Person B got outbid by Person A of the same rank.   Leaves us with R3-A, R2-C, R2-D.    R2-C only bid 10 more than a top performer, doesn't meet the required double amount to win over a higher rank.   R-2 more than double the bid of somebody ranked higher than him.

 

In the event of a tie between rank 3s, or a rank 2 matched the double bid, 100 vs 200, it then goes to a roll between the highest bidders eligible. 

 

This allows you to promote performance not just attendance because you want to be in the higher tier.  It prevents DKP hoarding to an extent with the double bid system, so top rank people can't bid minimal bid and win everything.  People that hardly show up and don't contribute as much can't steal the minor upgrade items of any degree from your most dedicated players while they can still be competitive in top BiS items.

 

Guild performance ranks should be evaluated by officers at the start of each month using realmplayers/raidstats to review performance and easily verify attendance %.  Guild members are adjusted +/- 1 rank or stay the same rank depending on review.    So even a new player off the street can be rank 3 after 8 weeks of being with the guild.  The people that are rank 3 have to continue to perform well or fear being moved to R2 for the next month.

 

 

Sorry for the wall of text;

 

Tl;Dr, unless you provide a system where performance matters like the one explained above, you'll have a lot of people being carried by a few.  So you'll get the fairness of dkp by contribution, and motivation to perform that loot-council typically promotes.

Edited December 13, 2016 by Undertanker

[Mililia 1]

I think we can agree to disagree. I feel all loot systems are not needed.

 

What IS needed are good guild members and a solid guild leader.

qft

[Nakeza 0]

well, i was going to post this a while later but welp..
 
DKP needs to be transparent. It is a system with flaws, but rewards those who attend mostly at raids over people who just roll for a raid once in a while.
true is also, that it's beneficial for ppl who are longer into raids in said guild.
 
we're using DKP too, for several reasons. loot council etc. can be corrupted too in several ways.
 
for example: http://lapotatos.v22013021543810649.yourvserver.net/listmembers.php?s=0572bced449dd5f8251e49f11abf5f93

 

that's what we are using. its also with a backported addon, that tracks every raid automatically with logs etc.

you dont have to do anything. after the raid is done, you just press export in said addon and thats it. no way to cheat it or anything.

just make it with hidden betting or anything comparable. 

 

also, we're going to roll diffrent DKP's for MC/BWL/.. thats one possibility to make it fair for new raiders / members e.g.

 

im going to release this for a later date if the interest is there, tho. since its making the effort way less for using DKP in guilds.

 

sure, it got flaws. but its also a great way to keep track of everything and spend it all on a fair share. we're even using SKS for Tier-Items, so the DKP is mostly just for nonset-items. 

 

adding a roll-system to the DKP part is a bit oversized imho. also, rewarding people for several actions is also.. since some people just got time for raiding and others got a ton of time to do all other фекал the game has to offer. more time = more profit.. hmh.

 

but in the end, its all a matter of taste, imho. 

[Kailas 5]

An issue that often arose in bidding dkp system or one that has the option not to spend dkp like rolling on item was it will often lead to silent deals meaning players will make a deal to roll on items in order to save dkp for items that are wanted by more people. And in nonbidding system where prices of items are constant you will have long term guild members with so much dkp anyone new will never be able to catch up.

An issue with shamans for example in a dkp system is they need full t1 as fast as possible but if they spend dkp on t1 they will be behined on dkp vs druids and priest and will therefore lose all non tier items and will have to wait for them for a long time (there is always several shamans in raid and competition for tier items can hurt their dkp if you are using dkp bidding). As a guild you want shamans to get full tier 1 as fast as possible and that means there should be a priority order on tier items so you can benefit from full t1 shaman as fast as possible similar to how you gear MT first.

I did all kind of systems and in the end all of them have problems, its on guild leadership to handle them

Edited December 14, 2016 by Kailas

[Aslan 0]

The pinnacle of "hey, when that one drops, we roll if it so we keep our max dkp".

[Elviss 5]

 And in nonbidding system where prices of items are constant you will have long term guild members with so much dkp anyone new will never be able to catch up.

 

I don't really see the problem there.

 

Let's say guild is cleaning MC, Ony and BWL. Long time members are quite likely going to have most of the items that they want, save for couple of BWL items (trinkets, healing ring, healing pants from chromy, lok'amir....). On other hand, because they have most of the things that they need, new members will have their chance on everything except on those few items that I mentioned earlier.

 

First of all, if anyone is expecting to join respectable guild and have straight away same chance on getting end game BiS items as guild's old members, they might be playing wrong expansion. Secondly, those old time members are killing those bosses with or without you, if you are not happy with guild rules that they have, they will easily find someone who will be happy and more appreciative toward them. Last but not least, people are often looking into reasons why would they deserve to get some item without actually looking into reason why would someone else get that item and comparing that with their own argument.

 

Bottom line, no matter what loot system you use, those who want to complain, will complain.

[Kailas 5]

I don't really see the problem there.

 

Let's say guild is cleaning MC, Ony and BWL. Long time members are quite likely going to have most of the items that they want, save for couple of BWL items (trinkets, healing ring, healing pants from chromy, lok'amir....). On other hand, because they have most of the things that they need, new members will have their chance on everything except on those few items that I mentioned earlier.

 

First of all, if anyone is expecting to join respectable guild and have straight away same chance on getting end game BiS items as guild's old members, they might be playing wrong expansion. Secondly, those old time members are killing those bosses with or without you, if you are not happy with guild rules that they have, they will easily find someone who will be happy and more appreciative toward them. Last but not least, people are often looking into reasons why would they deserve to get some item without actually looking into reason why would someone else get that item and comparing that with their own argument.

 

Bottom line, no matter what loot system you use, those who want to complain, will complain.

Theoretically I mean never. The hypothetical question is why join a guild using such a system if no matter how better you are than the old guys with tons of dkp you are never going to catch up and therefore will always be last in getting an item if they remain active as item prices don't eat up their dkp. Now there are several solutions to this with dkp increasing for each content but then you are left with low interest in attending MC which is still important for TF even later on. Etc. one change to fix leads to a another problem and so on. Witnessed this more than once

Speaking of any loot system is very subjective for every person. I tried at least a dozen dkp loot systems so far, dkp/LC mix and full LC and all have their issues. 

[Elviss 5]

Speaking of any loot system is very subjective for every person. I tried at least a dozen dkp loot systems so far, dkp/LC mix and full LC and all have their issues. 

About this, you are 100% right. There is literally no loot system that is absolutely flawless. And frankly, those who want to complain will always have valid ground to do so. Reality is, that in most cases those who complain are usually not exactly best example of proper raider.

 

The hypothetical question is why join a guild using such a system if no matter how better you are than the old guys with tons of dkp you are never going to catch up and therefore will always be last in getting an item if they remain active as item prices don't eat up their dkp

I firmly believe that dkp prices need to be adjusted every couple of months, or dkp table to be scaled down in order to reduce effect of dkp inflation. On other hand, if you are, say, healer with pre-raid BiS,there is absolutely no way that you can outperform BWL geared healer who need just reju gem and pure elementium ring. Some people like to join guilds that are farming content rather then guilds who are still progressing because so many of earlier tier gear (I'm not talking just about tier sets) is not needed anymore, and on top of that content is cleared effortlessly, while in progression guild you waste much more consumables due to number of wipes. Now it is debatable if that is the right way of thinking, but it is what it is.

Edited December 16, 2016 by Elviss

[KaioKenMaster 0]

Your system is decently thought out, but DKP itself is outdated there are many systems created after DKP that are better overall in every aspect than DKP if attendance for points for gear is your goal.

 

Next, it is obvious you have never played MMO with young adults to adults using points based(DKP) systems. They flat out do not work for serious guilds with decent leaders who are interested in bettering the guild as a whole.

 

Any decently intelligent person with a bit of creativity will exploit the points system in the best way possible. This can be done by group price fixing and many other methods.

 

For vanilla wow, and experienced leadership, loot council is the only way. If you cannot trust your leadership enough to quantify who deserves what based on attendance/performance/reward then you need new leadership.

 

These points systems work much better in later versions of wow due to how itemization was standardized and there were very few highly desired cross class items.

 

Good luck with designing the perfect point based system.

Edited December 16, 2016 by KaioKenMaster

[Undertanker 88]

Stop worrying about how much DKP somebody else has.   Elviss already explained to you that the majority of the items will be yours anyways, and for really cheap.

 

When I started raiding with my guild at the time, a pair of T1 shoulders I had to bid 285 DKP.   T2 legs?  500 DKP.   2 months later, a new tank comes, no DKP.  You know how much he got those items for?   5 DKP each (minimal bid).  I used 2 months worth of DKP for 2 items, and he used 1 boss kill worth for the same 2 items.

 

Any time an item drops that you want, even if you do not get it; guess what?  That is just one more person that doesn't need it again.  You are in a GUILD.  An upgrade for 1 is an upgrade for all.   If a great DPS trinket drops, I am very happy for the GUILD.  Because regardless of who gets the first or second or third, it contributes to the overall GUILD (there's that word again) performance.

 

Now like Elviss mentioned as well, these BiS highly sought after items.   The day before the server announcement came, I was one of those SUPER HIGH DKP HOARDERS OMG!!!!  I was holding out for Band of Accuria.  When it dropped, because it is a GREAT item, I had to bid A LOT.   I bid over 3,200 DKP!!! to give you an idea of how much that was to me, I was our guild lifetime leader at 9,100 DKP, and made every raid since the start with the exception of 2 Onxyia kills.   Over 1/3 of my entire lifetime DKP for 1 item.   It put me close to 0 DKP again.   I am now at the back of the line because I got a great item I saved for.   At the same time other players were collecting items at FRACTIONS of what I got them for and where decked out in all slots except the FEW BiS pieces that they too will have to save up for.

 

 

Tl;Dr, BiS item drops should excite you, regardless if you are going to win it.  Why? Because somebody is about to drop over 1/2 a years worth of DKP for it and that means you just moved way up the charts.

 

PS: Quit being selfish.  An upgrade for one is an upgrade for all.

Edited December 16, 2016 by Undertanker

[Nakeza 0]

Tl;Dr, BiS item drops should excite you, regardless if you are going to win it.  Why? Because somebody is about to drop over 1/2 a years worth of DKP for it and that means you just moved way up the charts.

 

PS: Quit being selfish.  An upgrade for one is an upgrade for all.

reminds me on the first item i got back in the days on classic.

hell, that feeling.. still gives me the chills.

[Elviss 5]

For vanilla wow, and experienced leadership, loot council is the only way. If you cannot trust your leadership enough to quantify who deserves what based on attendance/performance/reward then you need new leadership.

 

These points systems work much better in later versions of wow due to how itemization was standardized and there were very few highly desired cross class items.

 

Good luck with designing the perfect point based system.

Let me first clear out that I agree 100% about LC.

 

However, that is just ideal world. Reality is, that in 2016 (still)majority of player base is too much opinionated about self importance. It is rare commodity to have a player who will not start to complain after killing 3 bosses and not getting an item. At least 50% from small number sample player base will QQ about loot distribution in LC guilds whatsoever. And that kind of things wear off players involved in guild leadership. Once they are mentally wear off, you lose important player(s), maybe even kill the guild, and all of that for having too much trust in human nature. Let me just give you example from my own experience.

 

Garr binding dropped. MT, who also happen to be a guild master got it. Couple of rogues and furies, one warrior off-tank and paly off-tank did not like decision. Why? Hell, they are more important. Why would MT get it first? They are most important persons in the world, their mom told them so, so it must be true!

 

Imo, learn how to become better raid leader, and guild leader, rather then how to design perfect loot system, because perfection in that regard you will never ever find.